Atlantic Salmon

[Gill-T]

I noticed in the 2012 DEC Lake Ontario summary that quietly the DEC has doubled Atlantic Salmon stocking numbers.  Word has it, the Canadian Atlantic Salmon program managers have been feeding misinformation about their "success" of their mostly unsuccessful program to bring back atlantics stocks.  With the information gleamed from their microchip study with Chinooks touting 50% natural reproduction, the DEC could use the information to reduce Chinooks stocking in favor of Atlantics.  This bears watching in the future.  Word has it the DEC is now placing the extra numbers of Atlantic fingerlings up the small tribs to the Salmon River.

[King Davy]

Gill-T.... DEC has been stocking Atlantic Salmon in Beaver Dam Brook, and Orwell Brook since the 80's. Atlantic salmon will always be part of the Greatlakes initiatives as part of restoring natural species...as is Lake Trout. The Canadians are putting tiny fry in the tribs on the north shore, not smolts. They have been studying the results of those natel streams to support the fry through to smolt stage. Understand Atlantic Salmon are unlike King Salmon they spend much longer in a trib to get to the same stage a king fry does from fry to smolt stage.

I've been involved with this program a very long time with DEC and USGS...and they are in no way trying to replace Chinook Salmon. Much like the very popular and succesdsful Huron program Landlocks have created an Early summer, through fall tributary niche. In some years they have been very successful as a May June returner to the Salmon River. On the North shore, many of those tribs promote natural reproduction since they have base flows induced by many natural springs keeping those tribs cool enough to house wild steelehad and atlantic salmon. The Credit River is starting to see some significant returns through the very hard work of the Credit River Anglers Assoc. that by the way have planted over 500,000 tress since 1992 and reduced summer time water temps by 7 degrees in the upper river natel areas where these fish must summer over as fry to smolt stage.

Right now they've been a by-catch for lake trollers....many have enjoyed them, but they are not a threat to Pacific Salmon stockings. The biggest reason you don't have to worry...is that the State nor the feds could afford to raise 2.7 million of them in captivity. They are THE hardest most expensive fish to raise successfully in a hatchery. It took the folks at Lake Superior State in Michigan 15 years to finally find a starin that was hearty enough to return in numbers as adults.

So Why do this???? One it's a Great lakes mandates to try to restore native specieas...and we have this little thing called the trbutary fishery that has the largest angler effort for Lake Ontario. Not a threat at all...just another large group of anglers enjoying the resource. Will it be as big and successful as the St Mary's fishery.....I don't think so....as we'll never have the water quality as far as required water temps throughout the summer especially in our South Shore tribs. But it has been moderately successful. USGS handles this situation as the lead agency and works off some grants it has received from the Febs at Cornell. Tunison Labs will at max capacity be able to raise around 250K to smolt stage, and DEC is maxing out at about 120K? DEC is a suppliment partner in this...but I don't see this as any threat to the Pacific species.

One or the main reasons to increase production is that for the first time in 150 years, DEC and USGS in the spring seining project that they talked about at SOL is they've recovered a significant number of WILD Atlantic Salmon Fry. So the one river that used to have the greatest landlock salmon returns on the planet is starting to breathe life to these magnificant fish again. Over all that is a pretty spectacular thing.

It's no secrete that DEC and both our Lake and Trib anglers place the highest value on King Salmon in the systems...hence the high effort for them on the lake and in Sept. early Oct on the tribs. The majority of all anglers appear to be in the King Camp.

Don't worry folks....your Kings are not going tobe de-throned.

[GAMBLER]

 The Credit River is starting to see some significant returns through the very hard work of the Credit River Anglers Assoc. that by the way have planted over 500,000 tress since 1992 and reduced summer time water temps by 7 degrees in the upper river natel areas where these fish must summer over as fry to smolt stage.

 

 

I was reading some data on Atlantic returns a while ago on Spoonpullers about the Credit and I would not call the returns significant by any means. 

Edited March 14, 2013 by GAMBLER

[Gill-T]

Thanks for the response Dave. 

[King Davy]

Well it all depends on what you call significant. From no fish...to a few years of 2 to 3000 fish.....some might consider significant.  Atlantic salmon returns are in flux all the time due to temps and weather. I think we all can agree we experienced some of the poorest water conditions for tributaries last summer and fall since the 1930's. And again one of the main reasons nobody should get all worried about Atlantic Salmon replacing any other fish.

[GAMBLER]

2 to 3000 fish returned for 600,000 stocked over the last couple years is pretty poor IMO.  Why bother wasting the $ and resources for poor returns? 

[King Davy]

Well...there are anywhere from 7 to 10 million wild King salmon fry that hatch just in the salmon river....and only a fraction of them survive to become adult returning fish. If DEC put in 2.7 million Salmon king Fry....you wouldn't have the salmon fishing you have out there either. The Canadian's are putting 600,000 fish the size of your big toe nail. Big difference between a tiny minnow ...and a six seven inch fish that is about a month from ever being bait again...as opposed to a fry that is a target for over a year.

Why Fry????...because to be successful in recreating native species...is to have them lock into being wild again...

Gambler this is a different story then the Stock Restock game we play with the put and take fishery. In Canada ....the MNR's program is bolsted by a Whisky Comapany as well as Private groups like CRAA and in the US....federal Grants account for most of the investment, that are slated for just this program...and have been since about 1984.

And believe it or not...there is a growing number of dedicated and very interested group of us that support this and volunteer to work on it...and truly enjoy a dime bright 15 pound muscle bound salmon that has just yanked your arm out of place is into your backing almost as fast as a False Albie.....and you find yourself looking up in the trees at a fish that has Tarpon air capabilities....and can get to eight feet above the water line doing a double twist two somersault with a half gainer back to the H2o....

That's Why.

Not all the great fishing is only happening on LO in June....shhhhh....please don't tell anybody.

[Gill-T]

 

Well it all depends on what you call significant. From no fish...to a few years of 2 to 3000 fish.....some might consider significant.  Atlantic salmon returns are in flux all the time due to temps and weather. I think we all can agree we experienced some of the poorest water conditions for tributaries last summer and fall since the 1930's. And again one of the main reasons nobody should get all worried about Atlantic Salmon replacing any other fish.

Dave, this is what I was afraid of.  The DEC is being fed baloney numbers from the Canadian Side.  They are getting 20-30 fish/ year returning to the Credit after stocking 1 million atlantics per year. 

Edited March 14, 2013 by Gill-T

[King Davy]

Gill....and others...NYS....and the Feds...were in this program WAY before the North Shore. We have always been messing around with Atlantic Salmon...the Canadaians just jumped in in earnest five years ago. If Canada said tomorrow....we are all done with AS...that isn't going to change what Jim Johnson and DEC are doing in NY.

And anybody that thinks those adult Atlantics you've been catching the past couple years out there are Canadian fish....you are wrong...and in fact it was confirmed by Janet at the SOL in Rochester this past Tuesday night for those that were in attendance. Those fish you've caught are OUR fish...not Canada's. 2010 the numbers of lake caught fish started to be noticable...and into 2011. Those Tiny minnow Canada fish put in ..in 2007 and 8....couldn't be 7,8 10 pound fish two years later. Those are NYS fish. Atlantic salmon don't have nearly the faster growth rates that Chinook do.

Guys...everybody is so leary of DEC and USGS having an Agenda to repalce or get rid of something else....and you all are afraid its King Salmon. All they are doing is running the program that started all this in 1968...which included work on native species. Go read the Mission Statement of the Great Lakes Fishery Commission.....it's clearly including Lake Trout and Atlantic Salmon.

I realize we always have things to worry about with the health of the fishery especially around the Bio mass...which is the life blood of this thing. And becasue we are human...and truly are a "Special Interest" group no matter if you fish the tribs the lake or both...we have strong opinions of how to run this thing. Yet we have a fishery that at least for me was producing fish since 1972...and today is better then it's ever been before...and yet we are still nailing the very people who provide the opportunity.

Just once I'd like to go to the SOL meeting...and at the end...have everybody in the audience....and I was one of them...so I feel I can say this....Charter Capt's stand up....and applaud the Scientists that are before you...clap shake their hand...and say

Thank you for your hard work.

[Jolly II]

King Davy, you are pretty much right on. The atlantic program has always been a troublesome program, and it's taken a long time and hard work to get it where it is.

 

I was at the meeting on Tuesday and I think the whole room went Holy S--t! when Janet said the data shows that those are our Atlantics. I for one was really suprised as well, as I was under the assumption they were Canadian fish. But they are stocking very vulnerable fry, and more than likely have the worst survival rates.

 

And you're right, you'll never see Pacific Salmon stocking go away. With all the initiatives to restore native fishes, Pacific Salmon have to remain a part of the equation in order to keep the Alewive numbers in check. If Alewives were to be left without any major preditation from Pacific Salmon, they could very easily, in Lake Ontario, get out of control again, and create the problems of the past.

 

Our fishery is world class, and the biologists do a good job at keeping it that way. Again Janet's presentation on catch rates support that, 2012 2nd best year in the 28 year survey. That's great, but would love to see an increase in overall effort.

 

I think that the state, and one particular lake shore county, could be doing a much better job on promoting fishing opportunities on Lake Ontario, and in NYS. So many people I talk to, even people that enjoy fishing, are surprised to learn of the fishing opportunities right here in our backyards. I even know of some guys that drove to Lake Michigan, to hire a charter, to go Salmon fishing. Wiskey Tengo Foxtrot! But that is for another topic.

[GAMBLER]

I think that the state, and one particular lake shore county, could be doing a much better job on promoting fishing opportunities on Lake Ontario, and in NYS. So many people I talk to, even people that enjoy fishing, are surprised to learn of the fishing opportunities right here in our backyards. I even know of some guys that drove to Lake Michigan, to hire a charter, to go Salmon fishing. Wiskey Tengo Foxtrot! But that is for another topic.

 

Monroe County does not promote the fishery at all.  Orleans, Wayne, Niagara and so on promote it well.    Monroe County could care less. 

[King Davy]

Hey Chris.....I think I could guess which county might be lacking on promoting the fishery. I remember back in the 80's ...I'd have anglers coming in from out of town...as I set up their hotels for them...they'd say...hey we want to stay on the water. I'd be embarrased to tell them,. that there isn't a single room on the water in this county....closest they could get was Ridge Road.

Here we are 30 years later.....and there still isn't (to my knowlege...possibly some B&B's) a hotel in this town on the water. At work I have fish pictures around...and people will say where the heck did you catch that big Steelhead (that is after I tell them what kind of fish it is)...and I point out the window at the Genny....and they think I'm full of @#*&

The whole world is trying to bring back Atlantic Salmon fishing...any success has been in tiny little baby steps...but for some of us who cherish these fish simply for the sport that they are.....will continue to be OK with those tiny little steps...and keep pluggng away.

After so many years of this....IMHO...the last thing anyone would ever have to worry about is a push to put Atlantic Salmon ahead of our Kings.

Be good folks...have a safe start to the Lake fishing season.

[fish tech]

I noticed in the 2012 DEC Lake Ontario summary that quietly the DEC has doubled Atlantic Salmon stocking numbers.  Word has it, the Canadian Atlantic Salmon program managers have been feeding misinformation about their "success" of their mostly unsuccessful program to bring back atlantics stocks.  With the information gleamed from their microchip study with Chinooks touting 50% natural reproduction, the DEC could use the information to reduce Chinooks stocking in favor of Atlantics.  This bears watching in the future.  Word has it the DEC is now placing the extra numbers of Atlantic fingerlings up the small tribs to the Salmon River.

 

The thing Lake Anglers should be worried about is the declining number of "Fishing Boat Trips" targeting trout and salmon.  In 2012 the number was down to 46,059 trips or approx. 800,000 angler hours effort. This was the lowest number of trips in the 27 year data series!

By comparison the 2011-2012 Tributary Creel Survey documented 409,000 angler trips or 1.6 million angler hours effort.  In other words the tributary fishery produces twice as many license buying fishermen for New York State as does the boat fishery.  This is something the NYSDEC will be thinking about as they develope future management plans for Lake Ontario.

[Gill-T]

Dave, I feel much better after hearing your explanation of NYS stance on Atlantics, thanks for taking time to respond.

[salmonboy41]

I think the reason the Boat fishing is down is do to the price of gas, there isn't many boats that don't burn atleast 50 for a day of fishing and in this economy thats a lot of money.

[LongLine]

Boat fishing trip definitely down but if you look at the report it says trips way down in Sept.  Well "No Shi[" -  look at the water level in Sept.  Many boats didn't go out because they couldn't.  Way to much damage to lower units, etc.  Many guys hit the streams instead. 

 

I was also there & have been pestering Steve about AS for a long time.  DEC definitely says they're not Canadian but hedges as to whether they're US fish or not.  Last year the theory was that the US AS headed for the St Lawrence. 

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[King Davy]

Yeah Tom....Johnson is raising a few different strains at Tunison, truly not sure which one they've been favoring lately and will find out...I'll ask Fran today....but they've had better results of fish returning to the SR and sucessfully spawning....and like I said earlier unless those fish everybody was catching in 2010 when the AS catch kind of exploaded from what it had been the Canada fish couldn't have been that size....so they are either US stocked fish...or Wild Atlantic salmon.

Everybody who sees the numbers realizes they aren't going to be a big player in this environment...but they have filled a gap some what for some Spring Summer trib fishing. Couple years ago (same 2010) ...there were actually a few hundred caught in Oct/Nov. at Pt Breeze up river. They were stocking I think about 5000 at the Harbor every year. Not sure if they still are or not.

I've caught them trolling fun...but not nearly the same fish as in a river on the swing...or even a skated fly. Much like many people that trib and lake fish would prefer to catch a King in open water rather then in a river....

[BSmaster]

I have some comments:

1.)  Love watching the fish jump - all I can say is wow.

2.)  I notice that the LL enters the Oak at the end of the Chinook peak run and beginning of the brown run.  This usually means high pressure from meat hunters.  If a strain could enter in mid to late November, it perhaps would alleviate this one and done run.  25in - 1 fish is a good thing but all those drop shot rigs can foul hook them to death.

3.)  I do not know much about the fish so I googled to find out how long the young stay in the creek.  This is an excerpt [ Juveniles live in the streams for 2 to 6 years, at which point they undergo 'smolt' transformation].  Seems like a lot of the waterways are too warm (summer) or deal with too many predators to support this holdover.  Chinooks go out before the following summer, so they can moderate this in the lake.

 

This is the article I found:

http://www.esf.edu/pubprog/brochure/salmon/salmon.htm

 

Reference to pitch forks sounds familiar.

[GAMBLER]

A couple hundred caught at the Oak?  Sounds a little far fetched to me.  Most people can't tell the difference between a brown and an atlantic. You hear of a couple caught every year at the Oak.  That couple gets stretched to a bunch.  There are even rare occasions where one is caught in other small west side tribs.  These occasions are very rare. 

[GAMBLER]

I got some numbers from this site about stocking numbers for Atlantics in Canada.  Check it out yourself.  http://www.lakeontariofishingforum.com/8-AtlanticSalmonProgram.pdf

 

2008 - less than 300,000  

2009 - 750,000

2010 - 900,000

 

Returns to the Credit River

2008 - 49

2009 - 75

2010 - 200

Getting better but poor returns for sure.  The link above shows they stock fry, fall fingerlings and spring yearlings also.  We stock 1.51 million kings and look at the returns we get.  The only trib on the South shore that gets a run in the summer is the salmon river.  Why waste the time and resources for a fishery that is not drawing many anglers and only to one place?   

Edited March 15, 2013 by GAMBLER

[King Davy]

Once again, for USGS to run around in the lake and do trawls and study bait fish populations, and lake trout studies.....and bio mass .....to have those funds to do that...comes with a term and condition. Studies, and programs to work with restoration of Native species has to be included.

You take that away....the Feds don't have the backing of the funds to do all the other stuff. I don't think anybody wants that. The North shore has 10 rivers with smolt raising qualities...and why they put in fry, the program is to try and establish self sustaining stocks...not stock them for ever like the other species.

This isn't a put and take program Gambler like the rest of this fishery. This is restoration science....it isn't just about creating a fishing situation...just like originally the Pacific stockings were NOT done to create a Sport fishery.

Some fishing opportunities arise out of this....and they have....I've yet to see anybody on the lake complain about some silver rocket jumping behind their boat...nor will you ever hear a trib guy complain about catching those same fish in a river....

Actually in 2010....we had some creel work going on the Oak...in conjunction with Ron at Orleans Outdoors ....and we tried to keep track of the AS caught and reported...and in the end the number reported was in that range I talked about. Many reported and confirmed with photo's.

Are they targeted in the fall ...No...they are happenstance....are they targeted by a growing number of us in the early summer.....you bet. LFZ is closed in the summer for these fish to pair up to spawn....and with the use of underwater cameras and a diver from time to time, USGS and DEC have found a couple hundred fish pairing up.

Again not so concerned about being able to fish to them at the moment.....but more the proof that we have large spawning adults back to a natel trib. Mine and others who are interested in this...isn't just about how many fish we can catch. We are way behind the CRAA...but LOTAC has now planted over 20,000 tress in the upper river that someday will contribbute to better habitat. And last year we started at the Oak with 3000 trees...and will continue there.

Lots of things going on...that I don't think a whole lot of people are aware of. However I would agree unless there is habitat changes in some places South shore recruitment will be tough. But as in Huron they have found a strain that recruits well and is suited to the elements. The St. Mary's program is spectacular....they are getting a returns of 5 to 7000 fish a year to that river. The st Mary's is bolsterd by cool water coming out of Superior...however Altantic Salmon are very capable of doing well in high 60 degree water...and last Aug when I fished it the water was 72 degrees...and I can tell you those LLocks were as bad a$$ as they were when it was 55 60 degrees.

I took a 15 pound dime bright adult that jumped 7 times(5 feet in the air)....and into my backing three times on the SR.....On June 23....at 10:30 AM in 67 degree water. These fish are very hearty....the key is to find a strain like they have in Huron that do well in our conditions. The Huron program is proof that it's posisble to create a full fledged sport fishery in the GL.

[GAMBLER]

I'm all for bringing back the natural fish along side the current Pacific Salmon and trout as long as they do not try to cut the current stockings to make room.  It makes the fishery more diverse.  I really enjoy catching big Atlantics in the boat.  Is the Oak a good place to be putting Atlantics?  More than likely not.  The snagger/lifter fest in the fall Salmon run, No DEC presence or ticket writing (because deer hunting seems to be more important) warm temps in the summer and low water in the fall.  I would think they would focus more on a trib like Irondequoit Creek that has water that sustains a trout population year round.  If the return rates were better, I would back this 100%. 

[King Davy]

Well honestly...we have issues with bad fishing habbits all over the Great Lakes....I wish it weren't so....and it just going to take an eveloution of anglers to drive the skulldugery away. I'm nearly 60 years old and have been chasing these fish all over the GL for 40 years I can honestly say I'm more encouraged by many of the young anglers I see coming up.

Many more have an awareness of the fishery (in this case Trib fishery)....as far as the value of these fish...see young guys handling fish properly. Always room for improvement but in my opinion getting better and better.

I think the biggest case for easing the replacement thoughts is simply that the AS program is a long way from even being a viable fishery choice in LO. However there is VERY BIG money in Atlantic Salmon fishing....and enough interest to improve this once natural fishery especially in LO...because of it's rich history.

It would never make a lick of sense to replace a wildly successful Lake and trib fishery with the Pacific species and brown trout for this. In all my years involved with the scientists that run these programs and manage this fishetry have I ever heard a single one of them talk about any kind of agenda to trade one for then other.

Personally I just don't ever see that happening. Nor as much as I enjoy AS...I also enjoy all the other fish...call me greedy and selfish...but I want it all. This is a tough nut to crack...and maybe why those involved are attracted to it.

[Gill-T]

Dave, if you are getting Atlantic running in June after May run-offs as I am hearing.....would it not be in the best interest of the salmon to not catch them in bathwater conditions?   Any thought to closing the Salmon River in June to protect the project?

[Captain Carl Bish]

I long for a return to the days when one could walk across the Genesee on the backs of this regal fish!

Long live salmo salar!!

Stock away!

What can I say.......It's my favorite FW fish!