Atlantic Salmon

[King Davy]

Gill......honestly....in a normal summer the water becomes troublesome for them being caught about Mid july....and I can't say everyone gives up then, but you won't find very many people harrassing those fish. The majortiy of the fish ARE in the closed Lower Fly Section of the river by then. There is plenty of cooler water in there.....so nobody is fishing that after May 15. There are a few more natural springs that cool the SR down stream, and there are fish in those slots as well. Atlantic Salmon spawn in the fall.....and by then as you can imagine the entire river is loaded with people and pacific fish.

[darryl choronzey]

Hi guys, Darryl Choronzey here from Ontario. I've probably been more involved in the Ontario sport fishery than most over the years and will admit that I am totally against the present Atlantic salmon program and the way it's handled in Ontario.

 

For starters King Davy the Ontario side has not been really heavily involved in Atlantics for just 5 or 6 years, but actually since 1987.  It's been just the last 6 years that the Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters (OFAH) jumped into the game with the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources to make matters even worse with a propaganda push that does a pretty good job of covering up the truths and candy coating the issues.

 

At present we stock Atlantics in two different ways.  Firs the Ontario MNR utlizes the Normandale fish hatchery to produce and stock 400,000 fry, 150,000 fall fingerlings (10-11 month old) and 75,000 advanced yearlings...at a cost of approximately $350,000 dollars per year.  Then the Ontario goverment raises an additional 620,000 eyed eggs and fry for other idiotic stocking programs in north shore tribs.  The eyed eggs and fry and fingerlings from the second program go to outsource hatcheries such as Sir Sanford Fleming and the Metro East Anglers Ringwood facility etc...  All of this idiocy is the result of  Ontario's brood stock program at the Harwood Fish Hatchery. Trust me it costs a ton of money to rear these brood stock year after year after year. Between the two hatcheries we estimate the total cost of the two programs to be more than half a million dollars annually.

 

Again King Davy you are totally wrong about the return to the Ontario rivers or the harvest.  The Credit River is the main trib for this idiotic experiment. In 2011 only 33 adult atlantics were captured at the two dams on the Credit. This past year a measly 20 Atlantics came back to the river.  At Bowmanville Creek this past year more than 5800 chinook, coho and rainbow were lifted over the fishway. How many Atlantics???  Wow....2 of these so called super fish!!  At the same time our best fishing guides only note 1 or 2 or often no Atlantic harvest over the entire summer.

 

Yes, there is an Atlantic fishery fishery at the Soo rapids, but it is based on very special reasons. Roger Greil and aquaintence of mine runs the program at the university. The eggs are fertilized, hatched and reared for upwards of 20 months right at the site...then they are released directly at the same site into the waters of the Soo rapids.  This means the best imprinting possible for maximum returns. The fish return as adults in late May, June and July when cool water  temperatures coming from Lake Superior make for maximum conditions for the fish. I have yet to see any major tributary on Lake Ontario including the Credit, Bronte, Duffins Creek or even you Salmon River that will sustain these fish during our summer months. These Ontario tribs have been cleared of river shade and damed for eons and are just too warm to sustain cool survival conditions.

 

Then you have the thyamine deficiency problem. Greil the guy at the Soo who again has the only successful Atlantic program notes that he had to treat every egg taken from wild stock of thyamine deficiency or he lost between 90 and 100 percent of his wild eggs. The reason for the problem? Atlantics feeding on alewife just can't produce viable eggs. If not treated they don't hatch and survive. Just how in the hell are Lake Ontario Atlantics expected to self-reproduce when their main diet is alewife.

 

For the past two years I've been communicating with fisheries supervisors on both sides of the lake and the Great Lakes Fisheries Commission on Atlantic numbers, costs and results. The fisheries people on my side of the lake it seems obviously bu.l  sh..t the people on your side of the lake on  our Atlantic salmon results.  Talking to your people they get the sense that all is well and great with this idiotic experiment and that definitely is not the case. The results of this program in Ontario are disappointing and dismal at best.

 

Times are tough in Ontario. MNR offices are being shut to the public, funding is being slashed , conservation officers are going extinct and still we carry on with this idiotic program.

 

Just recently word leaked out that the Great Lakes Fisheries Commission was funding an 'Alaskan' fish weir to try and find Atlantics returning to Duffins Creek here on my side of the lake. When I questioned the Commission heads they debunked any thought of such a waste of money...Guess what? The next day the Commission bosses found out they had been sucked into spending $200,000 for this idiotic attempt at trying to find Atlantics that aren't there. Seems the bios under the bosses weren't telling the bosses. Two hundred grand spent on a two year fish counting experiment to find the phantom fish. Good thing we have money to spend on this little scheme.

 

Restoration science my a-- on my side of  the lake and the same goes for those so-called 10 rivers with smolt raising qualities. Most of the those rivers are as warm  as Campbell's tomato soup if an Atlantic ever lives to come home when they are suppose too. Many of those same rivers have dam obstructions. The Credit itself has two dams that are operated on a stop and lift regulation. Kings aren't allowed above Streetsville and no Steelhead are allowed above Norval. The water downstream is lethal when the Atlantics should first appear and the spawning waters are locked off to natural passage when the stream cools in autumn. One big joke.

 

Again, we do not have thousands of Atlantics coming back on this side of the lake.  We had 33 adults in 2011 and 20 adults in 2012 and that's all that had been recovered with more than 7 million fish stocked since 1987.

 

Trust me, don't believe all you hear from our MNR or the special interest groups involved in this idiotic program. The facts I've given you are the real facts.

 

I would imagine some to differ and argue my post, but it is the facts and the truth. I'm worried about catching fish and enjoying the fishery.  Not wasting money, time and hatchery space on an idiotic experiment.

Edited March 21, 2013 by darryl choronzey

[BSmaster]

Darryl,

Your first post is a doozy...  Kind a makes me want to cry.

[LongLine]

darryl - thanx for your $.02.   I hope you're not trying to do to this board what you did on Spoonpulr's. 

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[Tim Bromund]

What's that Tom?  Educate people about the follies of how the Ontario Atlantic Program is actually being handled?

 

Tim

[GAMBLER]

What's that Tom?  Educate people about the follies of how the Ontario Atlantic Program is actually being handled?

 

Tim

 

I agree.  The people of the fishing community need to hear the truth.  The is a lot of back door meetings and agendas that are not pushed into the public eye for a reason.  Darryl gets the facts and is not afraid to let the community know. 

[fishdawg]

I know it's purely wishful thinking on my behalf but i sure wish that Atlantic $$$ would be spent on another effort at getting some Skamania & Seeforellen Browns into Lake O!

[King Davy]

So with all that said.....back to the original post in this thread....are you really worried about Atlantics replacing pacific species. I've met Roger as well...can't say he's a friend...got to tour his hatchery. The key is not only planting fish right in the Soo...is finding a strain that will inprint and return...which Roger did...after 15 years of hard work....point is....it has and can be done.

 

I know I've been around this fishery a log time only since I started cathing these fish in 1971....I don't think I've stated that there is any danger of AS replacing anything....for many of the problems others have stated. NOT all fish in a river system swim to the lifting elevators folks. Just like NOT all wild Chinnies show up at the hatchery. I fish and have fished all of the North shore tribs to LO since the late 70's...and Wild Atlantic Salmon surely can survive in a habitat that can support a wild or naturally reproduced steelhead. So saying those very same streams that do promote natural Steelhead survival won't for AS is just plain stupid.

 

In the end.....does anybody truly disagree that we don't now....and have for I don't know.... 40 years had a world class fishery here for diverse species. Is everybody so short sighted that while some programs are very sucessful and are able to maintain this valuable resource it's an absolute disater if we TRY.....even try different methods to figure out this puzzle.

 

And then there is just this one other little Item ....juuuust a tiny tid bit...Darryl.....This fishery simply ISN'T JUST ABOUT YOU...and or the lake fishery.....in fact in both Canada and for sure the US....the trib effort vastly overshadows the lake for angler effort. This is a 12 month a year resource and as it should be ....be diverse as possible.  The funding in Canada has been both provincial  and private ...well the private side....None of your Bitness...my friend....not your call. For us in the US...play with the feds folks....they aren't hurting your fishing.

 

In the next two weeks the fishing report thread is going to LIGHT up with reports for 30 40 and 50 fish days trolling boards through the shallows...followed by May and June reports of fish from 50 feet of water to 400....dime bright pacific fish...everybody back slapping,...and high fiving and stating it's better then the 80's......and you know what ...for a guy who Charted a boat in the 80's....and thought this was heaven....I'd agree today is better then back then...it's exciting.....

 

And when all that starts happening ...are all you guys cowering in the corner of the dreaded return of the Atlantic Salmon if it were to ever happen ...as if they'll run down every chinnie and bite it in half...women and children will be rushed from the beachs out of the water.......REALLY be worried about these fish...and this study...no matter how long it's gone on REALLY???

 

Ohh I get it EVERY dime...every penny we can scrape off the bottom of our shoe....find in the parking lot HAS to be spent on Pacific Salmon? Dam I keep missing that memo. I'm fortunate enough to fish all over the place.....and I've never been any other place on the planet where the fishing is EASIER then LO....other then maybe the Kenai River in Sept, with 4 Million sockeye in the water with plenty of rainbows and Dollys sitting behind them.

 

And anybody I ever took fishing in the 20+ years that I guided...did I ever have somebody say to me...."We have better fishing where I live". In fact the only thing I've ever heard ...and I would be willing to bet ...that most people our fishing professionals encounter as well as the rec guys ...say....OMG...do you know how great you have it?

 

Well...that's the new question here....DO WE? Let's get a grip boyz

[Yankee Troller]

Amen to this!

 

And anybody I ever took fishing in the 20+ years that I guided...did I ever have somebody say to me...."We have better fishing where I live". In fact the only thing I've ever heard ...and I would be willing to bet ...that most people our fishing professionals encounter as well as the rec guys ...say....OMG...do you know how great you have it?

[Gill-T]

Dave, I think you have quelled the fears of Pacific Salmon being replaced by Alantics on this side of the pond....esp. with a paltry 120,000 being stocked. The anger and resentment you are going to hear is from the Canadians(they have a legitimate gripe!!!!) For the amount of taxes they pay, for the small amount of Kings stocked on that side of the fence compared to the amount of time, money, hatchery space invested in the Atlantic program......I don't blame them one bit for being angry. A conspiracy theorist needs only to compare the stocking number of Atlantics vs Kings on the Canadian side to ask the question "what the hell is going on here?" I can't believe Lake Michigan anglers are putting up with the crazy numbers of Lake Trout being stocked at a time when they are cutting back on King stocking due to bait reduction. Lots of head scratchers going on all around us. Thankfully, you and others in the DEC sound like you have a sane approach to the Atlantic vs Pacific salmon programs. I think I speak for everyone....(your self included) that we NY sportmen and women don't want one Chinook cut from the current stocking figures. Pass it on.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Gill-T

[King Davy]

Gill.....High Taxes.....focused on the Salmon and trout stocking.....REALLY. Not due to Social Medicine...and tons of Gov't programs for a million other serious concerns of people and their livelyhoods?  I pay high taxes so we need more kings...not better schools, more teachers, better medicine (since I have that social program), roads bridges, facilities and utilities? King Salmon?  

 

They don't stock steelhead anymore either Gill.....why ....because they don't have to.

 

If the bait population crashes.....you'll want Salmon stocking to be adjusted. Else you could end up with NO fish to fish for. Ask those that lived through the LM crashes and are worried to be on the edge of a third....and see if they are on the same page. Yeah I see all the yelling and screaming going on up there...but the majority of anglers who know better ...KNOW ...you manage your fishery from the food stocks...not from the fish stocks. YOU Gilly know this more then most with your background.

 

We've been fortunate...and I think many of us know why...we are in the envious posiiton to have all the fertilizer rolling to us and why we through all the ups and downs in the upper lakes have seen very few difficult times...but if as they say the $^*t stops rolling down hill and food stocks dwindle....make your adjustments as best you can to keep a viable fishery (for both the lake and tribs)...or sell all your stuff.

 

This discussion of finding a key to open the door of a fishery science problem as idiotic .......is only an opinion..........and you get to have one....so do those that are on board with that work. And for a growing number of anglers (including those with heavy wallets)...we've not on the side of the idiotic concern.

[darryl choronzey]

.Jezz King Davy, I only pointed out real facts on the Ontario side and I meant real facts, you and old Longline were quick to respond,

 

I don't concern myself with the u.s. side because that is your business .....please don't say it's great over here because it's a failicy.

 

And again, thanks for  all the fish you guys are stocking because without you the  lake would suck.

 

But facts are facts, we don't get thousands of Atlantics back.. 33 fish came came back in '2011' and only 20 came back only  20 atlantics came back '2012'. Half a million dollars spent as year and that's the results. Please don't don't pass up this point.

 

Anyways, I  don't know how you guys work on this board. I've owned and published a fishing magazine for 30 years and a fishing show for another 20 years and also done a lot of preservation on the north shore and across Canada. Also been awarded a national fishing recognitjon  It  concerns me some times that voices can hide behind disguised identities 

 

Anyways guys,  you do the best for the lake, but that is only me saying that.

 

Cronzy

[LongLine]

What's that Tom?  Educate people about the follies of how the Ontario Atlantic Program is actually being handled?

 

Tim

No Tim, that's not it all all.      What I have a problem with is this:  "'I know a guy who says....';  'This guy I used to drink with says...'; 'I'm telling you the gwad's honest truth so you can believe me...'  'Ya'll know how these commie SO6's will say anything...'; ' Believe me, 20 years ago, we knew how to do it  the right way when we...'; 'We were shooting the breeze over dinner last week and this guy says....'

 

 i.e. Show me the legitimate data, not the appeals to emotional BS.  If you're going to quote some scientific research as "gawd's honest truth" then post a link to it.   If you're going to say "Well, I was there..." then post a picture.

 

Enough of that- here's my 'emotional BS":  I don't believe anyone in DEC wants Atlantics to replace Kings.  I don't.   Additionally and more interestingly, NY hasn;t stocked significant numbers of Atlantics in many years (something like 50K avg over last 12-15 yrs)  and of all the Atlantics turned in to DEC, none showed genes from Canadian fish per J. Lantry at State of Lake meetings. 

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[Gill-T]

http://www.craa.on.ca/pdf/Lightlines-January-2013.pdf

Don't want to turn this into a pissing match, only wanted to inform the viewing public about the Atlantic program. As far as I am concerned the thread probably should be locked.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Gill-T

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Welcome Cronzy. I don't know anything about your posts on other boards, but I do know how vast your knowledge is on Pacific Salmon, Salmon rearing, Salmon naturalization. Your passion and dedication will be welcome here. I don't think we ever met, but a late friend of mine Bernie Klimzcak who I met at Oak Orchard, spoke glowingly about you. If you got to know Bernie, kind words did not come easy about anyone. In the mid 80's I trailered a boat to the Keys for him and your name came up several times. He spoke then that it would be an ongoing battle to keep the Pacific Salmon fishery, that the brilliant brave men that introduced the Salmon would retire and pass on.

There are very noble reasons for restoring the "native" species, and very financial reasons to cooperate with the effort( funding for lamprey treatment, stream rehabilitation, preyfish monitoring, ect). The carrying capacity of cold water fish in Lake Ontario in the 1800's and early 1900's is well documentated, and it should be no surprise that it is a shining star amongst the Great Lakes. Unfortunately, the ST Lawrence seaway was built and the Great Lakes were forever altered. What frustrates some people on both sides of this pond is the Pacific fishery has almost become apologized for, despite the fact that ANY hope of restoring a fair population of naturally reproducing Atlantics, Lake Trout, Walleye throughout the lake is primarily possible because of the King Salmon predation on Alewives. As for the resurgent Yellow perch population, once again, thank the Kings and Cohos. We all love the other species, but the Pacifics prefer the pelagic preyfish.

I think where the bitterness comes from is the helplessness felt on both sides of "the pond" when we can't hit the target number on Brown trout or get our quota of King and Coho eggs some years but ther Atlantics get handled with "kid gloves" and reared in state of the art facilities under watchful eyes.

I think there is room for all of it, but there are way too many cases where businesses and organizations went "belly up" worrying about and concentrating on the "what could be's" or the "next big thing" No one should lose sight of the "core business", or what got us "in the dance" in the first place. The improvement to the quality of life and the economic boost the portion of the fishery that really works has done for NYS and Ontario province can never be lost sight of or put on the back burner.

Let's remember how/why any of this is possible. I don't think it was luck or an accident that we got another chance to have viable fisheries in the Great Lakes. I would love to see the Atlantics and Lake trout take hold naturally in my lifetime, but I also think it's WAY past time to stop considering the Pacific "exotic". That Seaway is "exotic".

Edited March 23, 2013 by Capt Vince Pierleoni

[Captain Carl Bish]

Vince,

Add to your list of exocits:

Power dams on nearly every trib

18 mile (superfund) creek

Nutrification runoff

Ontario's (not so) golden crescent

It's all about trade offs, except that the trade has already been made!

[Tim Bromund]

No Tim, that's not it all all.      What I have a problem with is this:  "'I know a guy who says....';  'This guy I used to drink with says...'; 'I'm telling you the gwad's honest truth so you can believe me...'  'Ya'll know how these commie SO6's will say anything...'; ' Believe me, 20 years ago, we knew how to do it  the right way when we...'; 'We were shooting the breeze over dinner last week and this guy says....'

 

 i.e. Show me the legitimate data, not the appeals to emotional BS.  If you're going to quote some scientific research as "gawd's honest truth" then post a link to it.   If you're going to say "Well, I was there..." then post a picture.

 

Enough of that- here's my 'emotional BS":  I don't believe anyone in DEC wants Atlantics to replace Kings.  I don't.   Additionally and more interestingly, NY hasn;t stocked significant numbers of Atlantics in many years (something like 50K avg over last 12-15 yrs)  and of all the Atlantics turned in to DEC, none showed genes from Canadian fish per J. Lantry at State of Lake meetings. 

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

Tom,

 

I think you may have misinterpreted my comment.  I was specifically talking about the Province of Ontario's mishandling of the Atlantic situation, not Lake Ontario's Atlantic efforts. 

 

I don't believe anyone on the NYS side wants to eliminate chinooks in favor of atlantics, except for maybe some misguided trib only guys whose only exposure to the mighty king is as black, moldy, non biting half dead mud hens.

 

Tim

[Dukdog]

After at least 40 years and millions of dollars, Stocking efforts in New England have essentially amounted to nothing.  Returns are pitiful and the only fishery that was really created was from the stocking of spent hatchery brood fish in the Shetucket River above Baltic, Ct. 

 

The best Atlantic Salmon fishing Maine has seen is when they auctioned off chances to fish in a rearing pen downeast a few years ago.  It was set up on Ebay.  For your money you got to stand on the rubber boom around a 75 foot wide circular pen and haul in some slob fish.  

 

It would be great to think that the Atlantic Salmon could come back but after all the money spent and years trying,  I think the poor results should speak for themselves.   We still aren't allowed to fish for salmon in Maine except for landlocks.     

[darryl choronzey]

Captain Vince: hello and yes I knew that crazy Pollock for too many years, fished with him a few weeks before he passed  and loved to rock his boat on purpose if you know what I mean..... matter of fact , he stoled  that Penn Yann from me way back when.  I was with his second bride a couple of weeks ago an all seems to be well. But trust me no one misses him more than me

 

Anyways guys back on this Atlantic subject and again I'm not sticking my nose in the way you guys stock fish.  Some say you don't stock enough fish to get the right results.. Well in Ontario we've gone in the exact opposite direction  and gone really overboard. Our results are 'zilcheh'

 

The same guys that say you aren't stocking enough atlantics also want to press the fact that Soo has such a great fishery.  Well Greil at the Soo very, very seldom stocks more than 35-50,000 Atlantics a year. His success is only based on how he uses the same site to fertilize, rear and release and imprint his fish to the right size and then his success is not as good (and he will admit this) as what he would get on chinook or steelhead....but fish come home in late May, June and July to ice cold Superior water.

 

the original Lake Ontario Atlantic salmon went extinct back in the 1880's and is gone for a number of reasons.. Those reason are now magnified a million times and I doubt they will ever be corrected, but your scientists will continue to waste money and fishing opportunities.. Ask the Great Lakes Fisheries Commission why they are wasting 200k on this stupid new fish weir on the Duffin Creek. By the way their boss didn't even know it was happening until I told him???? A couple of Canadian bios sucked him in to this.

 

We do not have these cold water conditions any more, at least not on the north shore...no matter what the propaganda tells  you

 

Right now you can't walk into an MNR office because they are all locked. You can't find a conservation officer because for the most part they are laid off and no new ones are being hired, like most areas cutbacks are the way of life....but we continue to experiment  and waste money.  I'm not saying what New York does is wrong, I think guys like Dan Bishop are almost Gods in my opinion...but in Ontario it's being done all wrong. 

 

Please do not candy coat the Ontario Atlantic program... it's a joke.

Edited March 23, 2013 by darryl choronzey

[fish tech]

I don't believe anyone on the NYS side wants to eliminate chinooks in favor of atlantics, except for maybe some misguided trib only guys whose only exposure to the mighty king is as black, moldy, non biting half dead mud hens.

Tim you hit the nail on the head!   Yes the tributary anglers would like to see more emphasis placed on Atlantic salmon for the very reasons you mentioned.  And since tributary anglers now represent the largest "stake holder group" ultilizing the Lake Ontario fishery we are actively lobbying the NYSDEC for changes in the species mix. 

 

The 2011-2012 Lake Ontario Tributary Creel Survey  documented that there are roughly 2 license buying tributary anglers for every 1 license buying boat anglers.  (1.6 million angler hours trib. verses ~ 800,000 angler hours lake). 

The boat angler is no longer "King".

[Tim Bromund]

yeah, good luck with that Paul.

 

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until you understand.  The best way to protect your beloved stream steelhead snag-fest... er, I mean stream fishery is to have lot of kings in the lake for us to catch, because if there are no kings to play with, we're NOT going to all sell our boats and take up needlepoint, we're gonna run offshore and catch steelhead all summer.  We'd rather catch salmon, but we WILL fish for what's available.

 

FWIW, I would certainly hope the trib fishery sees more angler hours than the boat fishery, we have a 4-5 month time frame, whereas the trib fishery has a 9 month+ time frame and anyone with a snoopy pole and a pair of rubber boots can take advantage of that fishery, It's expensive to own and operate a trolling rig, but I would bet that overall, we still contribute a lot more revenue to the lakeside communities.

Edited March 23, 2013 by Tim Bromund

[Tim Bromund]

Oh, and lobby all you want, as long as there are alewives in Lake Ontario, king stocking isn't going anywhere.

[LongLine]

Tim – One of the main reasons given at the State of the Lake meeting for the smaller 3 yr old returns observed at the SR hatchery and the fact that the great majority were males, this last fall, was the low water being conducive to the “selective harvesting†that took place downstream for the “unregulated market.â€

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[rolmops]

It's hard to understand this quaint squabbling. At least half the boat crowd that I know picks up their flyrods or even their zebco rod and goes stream fishing in fall and winter. So stream versus trolling numbers are really not a valid measure of any kind. As for the atlantic salmon conspiracy, my soon to be daughter in law is working on the atlantic restoration project as part of her doctoral thesus (queens University in Kingston, Ontario) I asked her a few questions about this project and she told me that there is an effort made to restore the wilderness north of Kingston all the way up to Alqonkin National Forest and because atlantic salmon are part of the original population  efforts are made to repopulate the streams with these fish. Atlantics are part of the overal picture but not the entire picture at all.

[fish tech]

Oh, and lobby all you want, as long as there are alewives in Lake Ontario, king stocking isn't going anywhere.

 

Tim, what do you think was the purpose of the Chinook Marking Project ??  Do you think this very expensive multi-year study was just done as an academic exercise?  When the recovery of marked fish ends in 2015 and the final results are tabulated, decisions will be made.