Atlantic Salmon

[Tim Bromund]

to determine the most effective stocking strategy i.e. pen rearing vs direct stocking at various ports, with a secondary purpose of attempting to determine the amount of imprinting/straying that occurs with the stocked fish.

[Tim Bromund]

Tim – One of the main reasons given at the State of the Lake meeting for the smaller 3 yr old returns observed at the SR hatchery and the fact that the great majority were males, this last fall, was the low water being conducive to the “selective harvesting†that took place downstream for the “unregulated market.â€

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

 

Another reason is because with the warm early spring last year, everything was a month ahead of schedule, so they went off the feed a month earlier and had an additional month of living off of stored reserves before they were weighed at the hatchery.

 

Tim

[Tim Bromund]

Tim, what do you think was the purpose of the Chinook Marking Project ??  Do you think this very expensive multi-year study was just done as an academic exercise?  When the recovery of marked fish ends in 2015 and the final results are tabulated, decisions will be made.

OK Paul, so if your supposition is correct, as long as any chinook stocking reductions take place at the salmon river, so be it.  That's not the case though, stocking reductions would be a management decision bases on the health of  the fish, not the number of wild vs hatchery kings in the system.  As long as our kings stay as fat and healthy as they have been there will be no stocking reductions regardless of how many fish are in the lake.

 

and if they eventually do, I'll make do with beating up on steelhead and browns all summer, it'll just cost me more gas to make the 10 mile run  to the offshore steelhead killing fields.

[jimski2]

The marking project is to prevent overstocking Chinook Salmon as happened in Lake Huron. You have to handle on the stream hatched fish numbers and can the lake support the numbers of stocked fish is my take on the marking project. Skinny ten pound Kings is what is trying to be avoided.

Edited March 24, 2013 by jimski2

[LongLine]

Warm water does indeed affect the salmon.  Where they staged was warmer hence they turned color & lost weight sooner, however, they did not necessarily make the run sooner in the year.  The egg take period was extended because the fish stayed out longer waiting for the right river temperature.  Runs did not appear to consist of the typical numbers – but it appears there were more runs of smaller quantities made.  Look though the report section for dates of successful catches.  Survival & survival of the specie is their 1^st & foremost instinct.

 

The marking project has yielded much info so far.  It has overwhelmingly concluded that there is a tremendous amount of straying throughout the lake.  It was graphically shown at the State of the Lake meeting that the great majority of fish caught at any port were not reared at that port.  Data also showed the highest amount of straying occurred at the Credit River.  (SR to Credit is quite a ways)

 

Further evidence of straying is to look through your log books & pictures then count the number of wild fish you caught & where you caught them.  From what I caught off the Genny and saw in posted pictures:

1. If minimal straying then natural repro is occurring everywhere in big numbers or

2. If Natural repro is only occurring on the S.R. then there is tremendous straying.

 

As to cutting numbers at the S.R.  The S.R. stocking will be the last place to lose stocking.  Remember a couple years ago with the hatchery issue; the broodstock had to be maintained, hence it received the smallest percent cut while others were cut drastically.  It has the best spawning conditions AND it historically has the most fishing pressure especially from out-of-state.  i.e. think returns, money and “returns on fishing money.† When they stop stocking Kings at the S.R., it’ll be all over. 

 

After the State of the Lake meeting I took the opportunity to talk to Patty Riexinger about “having all our eggs in 1 basket†by only raising Kings at Altmar and I was a little surprised by her initial off-the-cuff remark that “half the fish out there are natural anyways.†

 

As for “killing†Browns & Stlhd, The state raises more of them than anything else throughout the hatchery system.  Initially the browns were stocked because there was an excess of them and it was thought that they might eat alewives when the alewives came in to spawn in May-June as they’re basically Nearshore fish. (hence might help control their population in that period.)  Remember what happened at Rome hatchery?  As to Stlhd, we have relatively new regs on them.  (I believe Big-O rainbows are also raised at Altmar.)  I certainly wouldn’t bet the homestead on either of them for years to come. 

 

Lucky for us the alewife population appears to be healthy.    Unfortunately, this cold March is not going to help the Alewives much.  Also lucky for us the LaMP plans state the requirement for a “diversity†of gamefish with Chinooks as the top pelagic predator.     Unfortunately LaMP can be changed.

 

So where does that leave us? ….. Well, how’s your Laker technique?  Even with Alleghany out of commission for years, the Feds had no problem supplying the required numbers.  Now that it’s back on line, it should get “interesting.† Also given the fact that Ciscoes are being re-introduced and there are some big expectations for that project.  i.e target of 500k/yr by 2015. 

 

I don’t know how this is going to all shake out.  I don’t think the change will happen in my lifetime.  However, we have Lake Guys, Trib guys, locals, out-of-staters, North-shore men, a diverse fishery, invasives, Feds, commissions, treaties and a lake that can only support so much.  As for me, I’m going to spend the rest of the day sharpening my hooks and dream of that 35 Lb King I’m going to catch off the Genny this year.

 

Luck to all,

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[Tim Bromund]

That comment was facetious Tom, I know full well that the SR is the last place that stocking will be cut as they need their brood stock for the hatchery.  Any cuts that take place will be at the expense of every other port on the lake, despite the fact that the SR will get fish regardless due to the naqtural reproduction that takes place there.

 

My point was that if the DEC were foolish enough to actually adopt Paul's misguided desires to severely reduce or eliminate kings in favor of concentrating on more trib ufriendly species, the law of unintended consequences will show that he will not see the result he desires becuase all of os lake fisherman aren't going to sell our boats and quit fishing.  We're going to fish for what is available, which will exponentially increase pressure on his pets, which, currently go largely ignored, or are at least, just an incidental by-catch for most of us when kings are around to play with.

 

We catch plenty of wild kings in the spring through mid summer, but once they start their migration east in early August, we see almost no adipose intact fish from then on.

 

Tim

[King Davy]

Tim....the only thing I think you are misisng here is the fact that the lake creel census did show a significant up tick in Steelhead caught and harvested the past three years, with a few record all time catches...so while I understand the targets are kings for true salmon fishermen....the fact that steelhead are being ignored isn't truly the case. They are part of the adventure in the open water fishery as well and obviosuly with the succcess results ARE being targeted.

One thing would happen for sure if Steelhead became "king" we'd finally have everybody on the same creel limit....1 fish per angler...as the Great Lakes Fishery Commisison has always maintained that the Steelhead fishery was targeted for Great lakes tribs....and fortunately it became a viable opportunity for all anglers both on the lake and tribs. In Canada they finally got it. They want those fish for a year round fishery, and they depend on wild fish....so lowered the Lake limit same as the tribs.

And let's knock off all the crap about snagging steelhead etc. Over 90% of the trib anglers have no intention to kill those fish, and if you spend as much time on the tribs as I do...(North of 150 days a year) you'd understand that fly, float and spin anglers are not snagging these world class fish.

The other thing that is happening with Wild Pacific Salmon in LO is they are surviving in every trib with viable water supply that can maintain cold temps (up to about 62 degrees) into early May which in most years is attainable. I can tell you I've spent many April's on The Oak...and watched school after school of little Chinnies swimming around in the softer water. They have a long ride to the lake, and have to pass many predators...but as far as sucessfully hatching and making it to that stage to leave the river....even our south shore tribs are producing lots of fish other then the salmon.

I did a talk for a Charter Boat group many years ago.....and stated that the effort was going to increase significantly on the tribs (which it abvioulsy has) ....and that both lake and trib interest should band together with DEC USGS, and MNR and work this fishery as what it actualy is....a 12 month a year Gem. That we can't be divided in our focus.....we have habitat issues (including the lake) ...we have social issues, management decisions that affect both some times equally....that if we looked at this resource from a business standpoint it would be in our benefit to focus it across the 12 months that it produces revenue....TOGETHER...not divided.

That fell on deaf ears...and still does. And that's too bad. We are missing a great opportunity.

[Gill-T]

I would hope Dave you continue to update and inform the public on this forum.  I have no doubt if you needed volunteers for planting trees or habitat improvement etc. etc. you would have a wealth of bodies willing to help.  If the DEC needs help ......ask here.

[LongLine]

Tim – sorry didn’t catch it that way.

 

K.D. – Where’d you see the up-tick in lake creel for steelheads?  I just looked up the catch rate in the annual reports and see the following for totals caught in the open water:

2009 – 54.9K

2010 – 46.2K

2011 – 36.5K

Looks like it’s going down to me – significantly downward! 

 

The SR Trib surveys show a different catch trend:

’06-07 – 9.5K

2010 – 32.1K

2011 – 39.7K

2011 (all tribs) - 58.8K

 

Looks to me like the "Lake guys" are laying off the stlhd while the "Trib guys' are kicking their butts.  Also of interest is that a lot of them are being caught in the west end tribs.

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[King Davy]

Tom DEC here are the words right out of the report - 2011

 

The 2011 charter catch rate for Rainbow Trout was the fourth consecutive year of record or near record highs, and was the 5th highest on record.

 

rainbow trout catch rates, at 0.72 fish per outing, were at record high levels for the fifth consecutive year. Catch rates were at or near record highs in every month of the April-September survey,

 

Steelhead are available to tributary anglers for nearly 9 months and for five of those months pretty much the ONLY salmonid in play. So pretty simple with the largest effort now being on the tribs that these fish are accessed often. But as we've all seen over 90% of the fish caught (and we also all know what makes them so valuable they are caught several times) are released.

 

In the same report it did mention that harvesting of steelhead on the lake was starting to tail off...so Lake anglers have started to understand the vaule of a great sport fish that doesn't spawn and die off as well.

 

Since the 1 Steelhead limit went into play on he Tribs Oct. 2004...salmon river returns of steelhead jumped from 3 to 4K at the hatchery, to well over 10,000 fish through the hatchery, with estimates from River Stewards that work the river every day that on a few of those years as many as 20K steelhead were in the river. The Lake Catch rates in that time frame also are seen in what DEC describes as record and near record catches.

 

Pretty simple if fish don't swim in coolers, they still swim in the lake and rivers...for anglers to catch.

 

Got another pretty interesting fact from the SR yesterday. In 2011, Sept to Nov, River Stewards reported nearly 700 Atlantic Salmon caught by river anglers. For there to be that many caught, there must have been a few 1000 that returned to the River.

 

Don't have figures for 2012...I would imagine they were lower with the low water issues.

 

 

[Yankee Troller]

ot another pretty interesting fact from the SR yesterday. In 2011, Sept to Nov, River Stewards reported nearly 700 Atlantic Salmon caught by river anglers. For there to be that many caught, there must have been a few 1000 that returned to the River.

 

Don't have figures for 2012...I would imagine they were lower with the low water issues.

 

With all due respect Dave, and I know you've spent countless hours on that river, but have you seen the goons that fish it during Salmon season? Do you really think they can identify an Atlantic from a Brown Trout or King Salmon? I fish that river a lot with buddies in their boats, and a few of my really good friends guide daily on that river from September through April. No way 700 were caught in that system unless it was outside of the month range I mentioned. The numbers the DEC is getting is from angler surveys. Not checking a cooler full of dead fish on a charter boat where an Atlantic can be identified. Just my $.02

[Rippin'Line]

In regards to King Davy's post on page 3 I also agree that Steelhead are much more respected than say the Kings and Browns. Ive fished these tribs for close to 5 years now and I cant remember more than 2 times Ive seen the steelhead abused opposed to the kings and Browns which as we all know occurs everytime we go out in those early fall months. In my experience obviously the kings are snagged the most but the browns come in second I believe is obviously due to the closeness of the runs. As a tributary fish however steelhead are obviously the crown jewel but when it comes to boat fishing everyone wants their hands on a screaming dispsy rod.

 

Now i would like to see a comeback of the Atlantics but not at the expense of the Kings. Besides many charter captains lean on the kings to fill their boats with clients and with this being a future dream of mine I dont want to see them take a backseat either. They are simply the most powerful bully on the lake and the 300+ foot runs are mind boggling to new fisherman. But as a taxpayer if this is a lost cause and truly dead money i say its not worth it to make a giant deal out of it. Just keep it where its at now and dont expand.

[King Davy]

Rick.....The one thing I can say is that the River Stewards Fran has in place...know their stuff...they aren't just sititng in parking lots ...they walk the river. By this time frame it's pretty easy to tell the difference between a brown and an Atlantic Salmon....Male fish. You would have a hard time with the salmon kype and tiny head not giving it away....Male Brown trout don't  Kype anywhere near the AS.

 

Can mistakes be made in ID's for sure.....but the fact is this is what they recored being on the river every day. I would have to give them the benefit of the doubt .... They have no reason to make it up...the program isn't going away whether they caught 700 fish , or 4.

 

There is one other tell tale sign....in most instances....not all...you won't find a brown trout eight feet in the air...dead give away that brown spotted fish, that has a white or silver belly, not Butter yellow...isn't a German brown trout.

[Yankee Troller]

So these people saw these 700? Or were they told while walking by that an Atlantic was landed and put back?

 

I could care less if it stayed or went bye bye. It's cool catching one, and no one will argue that. I'm not trying to get into this pissing match over "if they are worth the investment?" I just find it hard to believe 700 were taken in that river system during the time frame I specified.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Yankee Troller

[LongLine]

K.D. – you wrote:

....the only thing I think you are misisng here is the fact that the lake creel census did show a significant up tick in Steelhead caught and harvested the past three years, with a few record all time catches...

Sorry, this is a “spin†the presenter put on the data to show a certain yr period over the previous certain yr period.  There was a big jump in 2007-09 but since then it has dramatically gone down.  In fact, the 2011 data showed 36.5K which is below the ‘85-01 average of 39.5K caught in the open water. (sect 2, pg 52 of the 2011 report)

 

Here’s the graph from the 2012 highlight report that shows open water catch rates continues downward in the last 3 years:

 

Also at the State of the lake meeting the presenters stated fish captured at the hatchery were smaller this last year because the great majority were males and they blamed this on “low water levels that allowed more selective harvesting down-stream for the un-regulated marketâ€.  I.e egg snatchers were getting the females.

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

 

 

[GAMBLER]

The steelhead numbers are in decline for catch rates due to the fact that the salmon fishing has been awesome.  The kings were inside 300 fow for most of the past three seasons.  With the gas prices, guys are not blowing off shore to chase steelhead because there is no need to.  Why burn twice the gas when the kings are right outside the front door? 

[LongLine]

Absolutely Brian.  "Lake guys" have drastically reduced the quest for the stlhds. I think this shows in general that we have a lot more respect for them and the fishery than many give us credit for.  Back in '05-06 many said we were out to "murder" them and we did not force through the reg changes.  Length limit was a compromise that seems to be working out. (Thanx Steve, I think he was the one to propose it) 

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[jimski2]

Hatchery fry immediately start their growth as they are growing in a geothermal water temperature source. Springs and well water comes into hatchery use at about 55 degrees  year round. Salmon River fry have to deal with near freezing temperatures all winter long and part way into spring with the snow melt as the main influence in the river stream water temperatures. The fry need temperatures to rise above 45 degrees I believe to have their metabolism increase enough to start their growth process. Possibly a lot of stream fry do not hatch till spring water temperatures rise. The hatchery source fish have a several month egg hatch and growth start compared to stream source fish. The DEC study reported though at the end of three years of Lake Ontario life span, both hatchery and stream source fish are comparable in size. The hatchery stocked fish due to their greater size are less vulnerable to predation by those critters in the lake we seek out there. The hatchery fish are more successful to being recruited to adults and strange things can cut short wild stream production. rates.