Cut bait????

[chinook35]

I am starting to get the fishing itch. Does anyone have any information on the status of Rhys Davis cut bait strips? I hope they will be available this season. My supply is getting low!!!

[Paul Czarnecki]

You better check the NYDEC regulations on that chinook. Last report I saw said that ALL Pacific herring was banned unless it was prepared a certain way which the Rys Davis strips are not. Daun at NDsupplies has had lots of posts on the subject on the GLA site. They have even come out with a cut bait alternative as has Big Weenie.

The fact is it is VERY difficult to get a straight answer on this issue from anyone in the DEC. Answers vary from office to office so you can imagine how the issue will be interpreted by the Field Officers.

Advice for 2008---"Use at your own risk!"

[waterlogged]

chinook35,

Was at the BPS seminar last Saturday and a guy - Dave Wilson I think was his name - said no Rhys Davis cut bait this year as the didn't harvest any bait for processing. Rhys Davis contracts the processing to another company and since they didn't stockpile any this year it probably won't be until next year at least if we see any RD cutbait.

[Keith@FishOnBait]

Hey guys,

Thought I'd chime in briefly on the topic...

You're right. Be wary of the product you are buying, because a lot of herring products are not VHS compliant. Daun at N & D has put out a lot of great information regarding this topic. Essentially, any baitfish you catch cannot be transported to any other body of water or cannot be moved outside of the immediate area it was caught and must be used where you caught it. Most frozen baits do not qualify as compliant.

That said, Fish On Bait Company products were and will once again be compliant this season. We continue to talk with all of the DEC and DNR offices as well as the APHIS (USDA Animal & Plant Health Inspection Service) folks to ensure that we continue to do everything we need to do to be compliant.

If you are buying any herring meat products, make sure that it complies.

We will have our Red Label and Green Label whole herring in and around Lake Ontario (USA side) for purchase. Watch for it in local bait shops, marinas, and Ganders.

www.fishonbait.com/GreatLakes.html

Last note - unfortunately it does not look like we will be producing our herring strips products this season. Anything is possible, but right now we are looking at a June production at best.

Most guys are talking about doing what everyone out in the Pacific Northwest, BC, and Alaska does with cut bait - make their own. They take a Green Label herring and cut their own strips, and brine/salt them up for a 2-4 week span in refrigeration. Longer the better.

[chinook35]

Just want to address the "fish on bait". I was in contact with the previous owners 3 years ago. I sent bait heads to them so that they could make their cut bait fit the heads. I was assured by Tim that the company had purchased a machine to cut the herring strips to a consistant thickness and that I would be given a supply to test. I also gave my local Gander Mountain manager the contact information to stock fish on products,which he did.The last time I was there the freezer supplied by fish on was still in their bait shop(empty). The story in NY is that the fish on products were not available. I feel that this company has made a lot of claims and promises and has not lived up to any. I feel bad that I asked Gander Mountain to stock this product(I imagine the cost of freezer and initial supply of bait was substantial). I for one will wait for Rhys Davis.

[Keith@FishOnBait]

Chinook,

I am sorry to hear that you are turned off from our products. For that reason especially. I was in contact with the Gander Mountains in your area and beyond all last season, and was assured by my local distributor, N & D Tackle, that they would be in stock throughout the season.

The fact that each Gander Mountain store was ringing my phone off the hook in August asking if something happened to Daun or if we discontinued our herring product lines in the area is a testiment to her absolute horrific customer service. She failed Fish On Bait and she failed her customers. That is unacceptible to me.

From my location it is impossible to make deliveries for 4-6 cases of product.. it just doesn't make sense for the customer to spend $200 per case for UPS/DHL shipping or for us to send a refrigerated 18-wheeler cross country making stops.

Whole Red and Green Label herring will be in stock in the Gander Mountains this season. This isn't a lofty claim or outrageous promise. This is just an approved Gander Mountain vendor doing what they are supposed to do.

As for cutbait? No claims, no promises.

Keith

[ND]

Since I am the distributor of the Rhys Davis cut bait I thought I should reply to this post.

Sorry to inform you there will be no Rhys Davis cut bait. With the new regs it is just not feasible for the company to continue. Michigan wants certification. NY wants it brined. Problem with this, that is what they want today and not tomorrow. They could pump thousands into this to comply with no guarantee it would pass certification and worse yet that the rules won't change in the middle of the game.

I had just gotten ahold of our governors office about 5 days before his mess to see if I could talk some sense into someone. All things pointed to him and his new appointment (the lady in charge of the DEC) as to who has control of this ruling. I will forge on with this issue, maybe the new guy will be open to discussion. Never say never.

Now I can't let this go by. I was really shocked to see how I was slam dunked on here by Keith. I feel he threw the first punch.

As for your Gander Mountain. I think you are talking about Niagara. I have dealt with them for years. Along with Cicero. Neither of these Gander Mountains contacted me for Fish-On Bait. The Gander Keith is speaking of is in Michigan. He got them to commit to 4 cases of cut bait. Now it cost me 600.00 in gas to go to Michigan. The Fish-On Strips could not be shipped since the water they were in never froze.

Now, I could say a lot more but I really don't think Keith will slander me again.

Anyway if anything good develops with the cut bait you will hear from me.

Daun

N&D Sporting Goods, Inc.

[chinook35]

Daun,

Thanks for keeping us up to date on the bait question. The Gander I was referring to is in watertown NY. The manager at that time was Mitch and I gave him a computer print out of the ORIGINAL Fish On bait Co.,he ordered direct from them and had bait (of questionable quality) for one season only. After that he was unable to get any product.Freezer has stood empty for two years. I have seen a reference to a product called BTB (better than bait) any info on this alternative?

Mark

[ND]

Mark,

I never have dealt with the Watertown Walmart. I knew that they had Fish-On when I was selling Rhys Davis but never knew how they got it. They never called me for any bait.

Don't know much about the BTB. It looks like it might be a velcro type material on the internet but don't know because I really haven't seen it.

I have the Baitrix if you go to my site. That stuff is really nice and the testing has been great with it.

Any news on the cut bait I will be sure to post.

Daun

[chinook]

Keith, just wanted to say that I'm a different poster than Chinook35 as addressed above. Just wanted to clarify any confusion here or any in the future- Chinook-( the original one)

[Keith@FishOnBait]

Keith, just wanted to say that I'm a different poster than Chinook35 as addressed above. Just wanted to clarify any confusion here or any in the future- Chinook-( the original one)

Ok sounds good - gotta keep my chinooks straight for sure.

Keith

[Keith@FishOnBait]

As for your Gander Mountain. I think you are talking about Niagara. I have dealt with them for years. Along with Cicero. Neither of these Gander Mountains contacted me for Fish-On Bait. The Gander Keith is speaking of is in Michigan. He got them to commit to 4 cases of cut bait. Now it cost me 600.00 in gas to go to Michigan. The Fish-On Strips could not be shipped since the water they were in never froze.

Daun, didn't think I was slandering - just saddened. Was actually talking about the Rochester and Syracuse locations who were asking for 3-4 cases in August - had no way of gettin the bait to them.

Now that you mention it, there were a few Michigan boys who wanted some bait. No slander - just a missed route of around 25 cases pre-sold. GanderS, plural. Ahh sigh. Bygones. More to say but more interested in the future and keepin' folks in stock.

[Yankee Troller]

Per the new "green list" right now no herring can be used in Lake Ontario for 2008-2010. Looks like the fake stuff unless something changes. This was info brought out at the state of the lake meeting.

[ND]

Richard,

Can you tell me where I can get a look at the state of the lake report you are talking about.

Thanks,

Daun

[Keith@FishOnBait]

Per the new "green list" right now no herring can be used in Lake Ontario for 2008-2010. Looks like the fake stuff unless something changes. This was info brought out at the state of the lake meeting.

Yankee Troller, we have to be very specific about what is actually PUBLISHED in the Fish Health Regs in response to VHS and really careful not to start "the sky is falling" thinking.

Currently there is nothing citing specific species types of herring. If it did, it would likely cite that VHSv HAS been found in certain types of herring (specifically the Pacific Puget Sound Herring and river herring), but certainly not in all types of herring in either the clupea or sardinella families. One example is that the Atlantic Herring has never been found to contain VHSv.

If a species was placed on a susceptible list requiring testing for certification, a bait producer would simply be required to choose whether or not to have their baits tested as VHSv free. Still, nobody is prevented from using or selling ANY type of bait.

We have to be careful to not make broad generalizations. That's how wars start!

Next we'll hear that because somebody drowned due to boat capsize, nobody will be allowed in a boat. :shock:

Seriously, we have to look at the facts and what is actually published before assuming that all/every baitfish is "banned", because that is not the case.

[Yankee Troller]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I know what I am talking about. NYS DEC has issued a green list of baitfish that you are allowed to use on NYS waters. I was at the State of the Lake meeting when they announced this and we also had a state biologist come to our charter captains association meeting a few weeks prior. If I read something wrong or was informed wrong from two state biologist then I apologize, but don't shoot the messenger. I am a very respected poster on this site and many others. I know when and where to post things that affect everyone enjoying our resource.

So here was the proposal (straight from the DEC website):

19.1 Definition of baits.

The definitions contained in this section shall apply to Chapter I (Fish and Wildlife) of this Title, involving the taking of fish from the waters of the state other than the marine and coastal district.

New sections 19.2 and 19.3 are added to read as follows:

19.2 Use of fish for bait in the waters of the State of New York.

(a) The following fish may be used as bait for fishing in the waters of the state, other than the marine and coastal district, except as prohibited by Section 10.6 of part 10 of this chapter or any other provision of law or regulation :

(1) golden shiner (Notemigonus crysoleucas)

(2) emerald shiner (Notropis atherinoides)

(3) fathead minnow (Pimephales promelas)

(4) bluntnose minnow (Pimephales notatus)

(5) spottail shiner (Notropis hudsonius)

(6) creek chub (Semotilus atromaculatus)

(7) white sucker (Catostomus commersonii)

( common shiner (Luxilus cornutus)

(9) blacknose dace (Rhinichthys atratulus)

(10) longnose dace (Rhinichthys cataractae)

(11) northern hogsucker (Hypentelium nigricans)

(12) fallfish (Semotilus corporalis)

(13) northern redbelly dace (Phoxinus eos)

(14) logperch (Percina caprodes)

(15) banded killifish (Fundulus diaphanus)

(b) The following fish shall not be used as bait for fishing except in the water bodies identified in this subdivision:

(1) alewife (Alosa pseudoharengus): Canandaigua Lake; Cannonsville Reservoir; Cayuga Lake; Cayuta Lake; Conesus Lake; Hudson River and tidal portion of Hudson River tributaries (Albany, Rensselaer, Greene, Columbia, Dutchess, Orange, Putnam, Rockland, Sullivan, Ulster and Westchester counties); Keuka Lake; Otsego Lake; Otisco Lake; Owasco Lake; Lake Ontario; Lake Erie; Lamoka Lake; Pepacton Reservoir; Seneca Lake; St. Lawrence River and tributaries to the first barrier impassable by fish; Mohawk River; and all waters in Dutchess, Orange, Putnam, Rockland, Sullivan, Ulster and Westchester counties).

(2) rainbow smelt (Osmerus mordax): Canandaigua Lake; Cayuga Lake; Cayuta Lake; Conesus Lake; Fulton Chain; First, Second , Third and Fourth Lakes (Herkimer County); Keuka Lake; Owasco Lake; Lake Champlain; Lamoka Lake; Lake Ontario; Lake Erie; Seneca Lake; Star Lake (St. Lawrence County); Waneta Lake; and the St. Lawrence River and tributaries to the first barrier impassable by fish.

(3) mummichog (Fundulus heteroclitus): Hudson River and tidal portion of Hudson River tributaries (Albany, Rensselaer, Greene, Columbia, Dutchess, Orange, Putnam, Rockland, Sullivan, Ulster and Westchester Counties); and all waters in Nassau and Suffolk Counties.

(4) blueback herring (Alosa aestivalis) and Atlantic menhaden (Brevoortia tyrannus): Hudson River and tidal portion of Hudson River tributaries (Albany, Rensselaer, Greene, Columbia, Dutchess, Orange, Putnam, Rockland, Sullivan, Ulster and Westchester Counties); and the Mohawk River and tributaries to the first barrier impassable by fish.

(5) American eel (Anguilla rostrata): Delaware River and tributaries to the first barrier impassable by fish, 6 inch minimum size limit; and the Hudson River and tidal portion of Hudson River tributaries (Albany, Rensselaer, Greene, Columbia, Dutchess, Orange, Putnam, Rockland, Sullivan, Ulster and Westchester Counties), between 6 and 14 inches.

[Keith@FishOnBait]

Richard - didn't mean to question your ability to call out a message or your standing in the community at all... just noticing something (that's actually not listed) in the detailed response you pulled from the DEC site:

No mention of either the Atlantic or Puget Sound Herring (clupea harengus/clupea pallasi). Blueback Herring & Alewife are different fish entirely than Atlantic Herring for sure - even though they are from the same family of fishes (clupea), they are not found or harvested in the same places.

Specifically, there was no mention of any fish in the Clupea family, and no mention any fish in the Sardinella family either. Lake herring and bluebacks don't count as all of 'em.

I am back in contact with the folks at the NY DEC to get further clarification, because I agree with you - we need clear and good information on the site for folks to go by.

Keith

[Yankee Troller]

Well, lets hope for the best! I know them East end guys need them strips to catch them big kings! Let us know your findings. If they would have just come to the public to see what is used we wouldnt be in this situation.

[Keith@FishOnBait]

Just got off the phone with Greg Kozlowski, NY DEC who was a great insight into what the proposed regulations are looking like.

First, he recommended that EVERYONE should go to the following site, which has the proposed regulations in full. Again, they are just proposals, and the earliest they would go into effect is October 1, 2008:

http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/34113.html

I'll save some of you from reading everything and say that NOTHING changes from last years regs.

That said, once you have taken a look at everything, he welcomed your comments, and said to email to the link in each section you have comments on - they ABSOLUTELY want people to comment/email/call, because, as Greg said, "these are YOUR regulations."

They are accepting comments now and for the next month or more (in some cases, depending on the section) and these proposed regulations do NOT go into effect until OCTOBER 1, 2008 at the earliest. Greg said there is plenty of time to take YOUR comments into considerations in order to make these regulations the best they can be.

[Yankee Troller]

That sounds a lot better than what we heard from the biologist. So the 2008-2010 reg dont go live till October of 2008? Interesting, I never knew that. I would hope that everyone gets on the phone to the state and voices thier opinion.

[Keith@FishOnBait]

That sounds a lot better than what we heard from the biologist. So the 2008-2010 reg dont go live till October of 2008?

That's right - the earliest would be 10/01/2008. Another interesting thing he pointed out about the Green List is that it has been talked about for years (before they became concerned with VHS).

Interesting point he brought up: When they were putting the Green List together years ago, it was to prevent one species from "taking over" a local ecology and virtually wiping out the population of one or more of our prized trophy fish.

Moreover, dead (frozen) fish don't reproduce, so the Green List didn't have frozen bait in mind. It was more to prevent another animal from coming in, reproducing, and taking over and destroying the fragile ecosystem.

Interesting, I never knew that. I would hope that everyone gets on the phone to the state and voices thier opinion.

I think it is each person's right and responsibility to make their voice heard. It's like with voting for the president - if you don't vote, you don't have an opinion because you had your chance.

I hope everyone gets the word out for folks to take the time and effort to help manage THEIR natural resource.

[ERABBIT]

Any thing "new" on this ??

[ray koziatek]

rabbit that stuff dont work now break down and buy some spin docters

[ERABBIT]

Thanks Ray..............

[Keith@FishOnBait]

Any thing "new" on this ??

Still the same - you can login at the link above and voice your opinions on the matter. Looks like they want to watch live bait closely, but even that you can chime in on with your feelings and opinions.

Ultimately, when I spoke with Greg at the DEC office, he said that he wants sportsmen to give their opinions because the resource is all of ours.

As far as our baits? I am talking with a few distributors who are looking to take on the herring in the next 2-3 weeks. Buy the spin doctors AND real meat - you need every option to get the fish in the box.

Tight lines...

Keith