Short vs long rods

[Goatboy]

Ok

 

I'm running two dipsy divers And I was wondering

 

I bought two short 6 ft heavy rods to run the  dipsys but a buddy says they run better on long rods. I tried them on a long rod but can't seem to get the damn Dipsy to disengage (mono line 30lb) They trip on the short rods when I give them a yank to retrieve them. So witch is better short Rod or Long does it make any difference with presentation ?? Does the length of the rod affect the Dipsy's performance?

 

What do the experts out there think

[Gator]

Not an expert by any stretch, but longer rods will help prevent your dipsy line from running across your downriggers and will also absorb some of the shock when you're trolling in big seas, preventing false releases. As you've experienced. 

 

Presentation-wise, the length of the rod is less of a factor than what the reel is spooled with (too obvious to make a joke). Mono is better suited for shallow depths, whereas 7-strand wire is generally preferred this time of year. There should be a bunch of threads with information on how to rig wire.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Gator

[Don Supon]

Rod length influences the leader length from the dipsey to the lure. With a longer leader, you might take more hits.

 

IMO a shorter rod is better when fishing alone; helps to net the fish. Rod action also comes into play there also. Heavy helps the fisherman. Boat size and fishing space restrictions (anything limiting rod movement such as bimini top, etc.) are factors also.  

 

You bought 6 ft rods. Sounds really short to me. Most fisherman keep the leader length length  to fit the rod length. This would make your leader too short after the dipsey. That will affect how often you get bit. The more seperation between dipsey and lure, the better. Short leaders restrict lure action. You could make the leader length longer to get more hits, but will have trouble at netting time and when storing the rod when not fishing. My rods are 8'6 and are good for most fish. However, fish near 30 lbs. are very hard to land, especially solo. I plan to try to hand line the next one instead of netting it.

 

All dipseys have to be adjusted to get tripping ability. Too heavy and you can't trip it-too light and it is going off without a hit. Thinking the problem you had with the long rod was because the dipsey was set too tight and/or the rod too limber. Try tightening the drag (or thumbing the line)before tripping it, might help.

[Sk8man]

I guess the short rod folks are in short supply so I'll offer my two cents for them. All of the above information is very relevant and informative and I've used both long and short rods...they both have their place in the fishing "arsenal". It really boils down to a personal preference when all is said and done.  I fish alone quite a bit on an 18 ft boat and trying to net a good sized fish while trying to back up in the boat holding on to the rod and lifting the Spin Doc or flasher out of the water (not to mention steering the boat ...don't have autopilot) is a real challenge and you lose fish that way with a long rod. I now use medium weight 6 1/2 ft. rods with roller tips and 30 lb stainless wire and also braid. The roller tip assists in reducing friction at the tip, offers a larger opening for barrel swivels to come through and because I use the #8 (50 lb test Spro Power swivels) I can use fluoro or mono leaders of any length for rigs other than the flashers and Spin docs. The rod holders I have are stainless and will even support outriggers if I choose to  toward the back when fishing alone and very heavy duty and they stick out a foot or so from the sides of the boat and are a couple feet up from the gunwales allowing the rods to come close to a 90 degree angle offering maximum line separation. Unlike the charters and larger boats I only run about 6 lines too which is a different "animal" than the 12 or so they may be running with a wider beam. Rod angle in the rod holders and positioning of them  may be as  important as rod length for line separation. Two of my dipsey rigs are usually run from outriggers (mono or braid) or TX 44 board and I run 2 downriggers with sliders usually. Anyway shorter rods may have a place for some folks like myself....and my longer ones seldom see use anymore.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Sk8man

[BAZOOKAJOE]

Spool up your reels with wire!

[Goatboy]

Thank you all for your input.

 

I ended up having to return one of my 6ft rods. Tore the spool on it. It was a cheap Canadian tire magnum rod an reel but hey it's my first year and I had to get rods, I didn't have 5 gs to drop on 6 rods and reels.

 

I am going out to get a couple more rods tomorrow to be able to run a full set of 6. I think I'm going to go with log rods 8' 6" to 9 ft for my Dipsys. The reasoning is I have a 22ft Statecraft with 8ft wide beam and lots of room to back up  so I would like to get my leaders as long as possible. I will look at eventually getting copper to rig these. I'm thinking of going with a couple of Okuma Convectors as reels. It's time I started investing a little more in my reels.

 

Does anyone have any experience with these Okuma's (I have one, a present from my wife a year ago, she wrapped it up for X-mas and told me it came with a boat!). Anyway it seems to run well

 

Do any of you have a favorite reel that comes in at around 100$

[Big Dave]

I fish from an Islander too.  I love my 7' fish Dr. roller rods.  They handle the kings great.  Are easy to store , clear the riggers fine.  My old fishing partner was 86 and couldn't handle the longer rods.  He wouldn't take his turn if the fish was on the dipsie.   With the shorter rods he could bring in the salmon fine. 

[John E Powell]

You really only need rods long enough to do the job. For some boats this means 6.5-7'. Other boats will need longer rods in the 8-9' range. Very few, if any need longer than this unless you run multiple divers per side.

Having the correct action, mod/fast to fast, in the right power range to be properly loaded by the drag setting and diver and bait of your choice is far more important than rod length as long as the rod is long enough to clear your rigger cables.

As a custom rod builder, I can tell you that the most challenging trolling rod to build is a good diver rod. Most people think they need a longer diver rod than they really do. All a longer rod than necessary accomplishes is to needlessly tire the angler using it. A fishing rod is a lever and the fisherman is on the wrong end of that lever. Long rods just make the lever ratio more powerful for the fish. Long rods lengthen the time it takes to land fish so more fish will die if you are into catch and release. Tournament fisherman lengthen the time a rod is occupied and cannot be reset with longer rods. I could give many more examples along these lines.

If you are happy with your 6' rods and they work for your setup, then use them and don't worry about what other people are using.

[Sk8man]

Very well said John.

[Gator]

I hear you guys on the whole "fishing alone" thing...I was out last Sunday by myself and I ran one of my 9 1/2' rods with a wire dipsy along with a couple of riggers. Wouldn't you know that the wire rod was hot? Watching me trying to net the first of five kings was like watching two monkeys try to screw a football. I ended up dropping 3 fish, two at the boat because of rod length. 

 

We run double dipsys, but taking a page from Gambell, I think next year there will be two 8' rods for the inside divers and two 9 1/2' rods for the outside.

 

And as mentioned above, shorter rods can be an asset in the right situation. We run 7' downrigger sticks and I love them. 

 

Finally, there's lots of rods and reels that will work, but we still have Shimano TDR rods from 20 years ago that we run sometimes (the 1802 is a favorite) and they're probably in the $30 range new, quite a bit less used. The Convector reels are fine, as well. And if you can get your hands on some of the old metal Daiwa 27 and 47 reels, they are fantastic, especially with a drag upgrade from Tuna's Reel Troubles. We may have some stuff to sell cheap in a few weeks once I get the boat sorted out.

 

The absolutely best thing that you can do is to hitch a ride with an experienced fisherman or two and get a feel for what you like!

[John E Powell]

I fish occasionally on a friends boat who has transitioned away from 4 downriggers to 2 downriggers. He often runs 4 divers (2 mag and 2 regular) on wire line. He's able to run 7' inside rods and 8' outside rods. On my boat, I have a Whaler Drive (a large outboard bracket) that requires me to run my riggers a little further out. Even so, I am able to run 8' inside mag wire divers paired with 9' outside wire divers. I have a third set of 10 footers rigged for shallower fishing using lite bite slide divers.

 

I could run all three without problems, but in reality most of the time I do not run a charter boat spread for everything from deep kings to shallow steelhead, so I only run 2 per side targeting kings. I ether run the 8+9 for deeper fish or the 9+10 for shallower smaller fish.

 

I've watched people fighting and landing fish on all those different length rods and have come to the conclusion that 10-10.5' diver rods are technological dinosaurs. I'll still build them for someone if they insist, but I no longer recommend them. I am seriously considering retiring all my diver rods in favor of 7' for inside wire mags, 8' wire standard, and 9' lite bites, or even two pairs of 7 and 8' rods (one pair being built for heavier deeper gear and the other pair for lighter shallower presentations).

 

I can always rig dipsy/deeper divers as slide divers with a Big Jon Jettison release when the bite calls for a more stealthy longer lead length thus eliminating the hassle of netting fish with lengthy fixed diver leaders.

 

Back in the 70s we ran shorter offshore or musky style rods with pink ladies but transitioned in the 80s to the super long rods. Lacking the correct action and adequate power those downrigger actioned 9-10' rods just couldn't reach out far enough so instead of fixing the problem with a faster action and more reach before the bend, they just made the rods longer (not at all moving the bending point significantly further from the side of the boat). There were a few early attempts to do this correctly, but the combination of shorter lengths, correct action, adequate but not excessive power and extreme durability eluded rod manufacturers until only recently. Finally, after a 30+ year transition to longer and longer rods, we're as a fishery transitioning back to shorter more realistic mass manufactured rods.

 

The new MHX DR845 blank is truly the best blank ever made for rigger and big board copper/leadcore rigs. Now if someone could just make the perfect diver blank I would be a happy camper. Unfortunately I don't think that is possible yet with the materials available to construct blanks with. There needs to be a major push and the market for diver rods are just too small to justify the expense. Until that happens, we'll just have to make the best with what we have.

[Sk8man]

As usual Gator is right on target with his information. I've had 10  Daiwa 47H's (metal ones) from about 1985 or 86 with hundreds of fish on them and they are still running great and they've had plenty of kings on with 12 lb test line (before fleas) and I never worried about getting "spooled".

Edited September 4, 2013 by Sk8man

[Chas0218]

I bought a 9'6" heavy dipsy rod from challenged1 on here last year and just got around to using it for my dipsy setup and wow!! I have so much more control with that longer rod. My other rods are 9' and they are a lot nicer than the 8' rods I was using.

 

They always say longer is better....

[challenged1]

Thanks Chas0218. Wouldn't steer you wrong. Lol. Couldn't resist.

Sent from my C771 using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[Miss em]

_{This photo shows a standard 8'6", two piece rigger rod and one of our custom 7 foot rigger rods, both loaded on the same rigger.  Basically, the bottom  part of the longer rod that does not bend gives absolutely zero benefit to the angler, Both rods take up an identical amount of slack line from this loaded position to a straight position (we tested that).  As far as steering a fish, applying a 20# force to the foregrip of the longer rod yields 3.5 pounds of force to the fish.  The same force applied to the shorter rod gives you 4.5 pounds of force to  the fish (we tested that too).  Guess which one can steer a fish better?  Just wanted to share a little technical info to the subject.}

 

Edited September 4, 2013 by Miss em

[Gator]

So, do you guys strip-set on the fish? Whoops, I forgot they're not tarpon...though with the mouths these kings get in the fall, they may as well be. 

 

Seriously, though, that's some good information. I'd run 7' diver rods if they cleared the riggers a bit more easily. What are the 7' rods you have in your photo, Miss em? Any issue with false releases running Dipsys in high following seas? John, you make a good point regarding diver blanks, but it seems like these things are constantly evolving, so there's hope.

[Miss em]

The one thing that I would point out is that most store bought 7 foot rods that I have seen are moderate-fast action rods, which don't load up well and may lead to false dipsy rod trips under load.  The line of blanks we use (my favorite dipsy blank is now discontinued unfortunately) are moderate action blanks that are very well suited to our fishing.  Never had any problems with tripping dipsys with the ones we use.  Like has been said here, the shorter rods have a lot of advantages, it just comes down personal boat configurations, clearances, etc on what you might use.  The 7 footer in the picture is discontinued Amtak blank, but we found a line of Batson blanks that are as good or better as those.

 

John,

The best 7' diver rod blank I have ever found was an Amtak GFW701H  but  they discontinued them.   They would make a run of 50 of them if you were interested.  Hell of a heavy copper rod too. 

Edited September 5, 2013 by Miss em

[Chas0218]

My concern isn't being able to steer the fish (you won't be steering anything bigger than a 20lbs. king), it is the ability for the rod to take some of that extra hit and give with the fish.  

 

My 8' okuma downrigger rods have the same size tip but different backbone than my 9' Okuma dipsy rods while maintaining same interior rob blank dimensions granted construction plays a role but most over the counter rods are made in the same fashion.  So my 8' has less give than my dipsy rod. But having more give in a dipsy rod is a good thing allowing the rod to give with waves and current changes without tripping the dipsy.

[Miss em]

I would say the "give" a rod blank is a function of both the length and the action of the rod blank.  A 7' moderate action rod would have more give than a 9 foot fast action rod.  It's all about preference at that point and finding that sweet spot for your own application.

[Gator]

Which Batson blank are you building on for Dipsys? I have a couple downrigger rods, but they're obviously not suitable. Thanks!

[J.D.]

I switched to shorter rods 4 seasons back... one of the best moves I've made. I've never lost a fish because I didn't have enough rod to handle them. Running Shimano TDR 7' medium action for riggers and board rods, same rod in medium heavy for lead core. Chopped the butts down on all rods, so length now is 6' 8"..... also using 7' 6" heavy musky rods with twilli tip for wire divers.

 

Just my $.02

[Miss em]

I have built a few roller rods on a Batson SWB70L for a few guys on here and they really like them. I have a couple on SWB70ML that I use for mag dipsys and they work outstanding for that application. I have a RDR86MH built as a roller rod that seems just right to me. (See pic below) I broke 6' off the tip of that rod and that made it even better as a two piece 8 footer. I haven't tried any of the longer rods in that series. That Amtak blank I mentioned above is still my favorite dipsy blank.

[Big Dave]

I don't know what my blanks were, but the sure work  great!!   The 7' rod is easy to handle and store.  Whups the kings and is light enough for the fingerlakes smaller fish.  I think the rollers make the wire easer to reel in over the twilley tips.  IMO 

[Blue Heron]

I switched to 7' Uglystik rigger rods about 5 years ago and they will take a king down as fast as any of the 8 - 8.5 footers I ran for the 25+ years before that  - i also had Jeff make me 2 7' roller rods for my Dipseys last year and they are AWESOME- at this point the only rods I use that are longer than 7 are my outside dipseys ( when running 4) and my junk rods - you dont need telephone poles to catch fish - you need good drags - you can 'steer' a fish just as well with the 7's

[Miss em]

Dave and Ted both have the SWB70L built with roller guides.