Just generally less salmon this year?

[Gator]

We never got into fish out West this Spring. Our experience at Sandy was that the "normal" July flurry never materialized and IMHO August was okay at best. Now it seems that the skunk has hit up and down the lake. I keep thinking (and reading) about weather patterns and staging and wind, but...what if there's just not as many fish? Does anyone have the stocking numbers from 4 years ago? Was there something strange going on that year, like higher water temperatures in the creek during the pen-rearing? I seem to recall that the salmon were only kept in the pens a very, very short time one year. 

 

I know that we had an exceptional year last year, but this seems more to me than merely a reversion to normal. I'm just throwing it out there for discussion.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Gator

[Sk8man]

I've been thinking many of those same thoughts Gator. It wasn't just the matures either...it didn't seem like all that many silvers and juveniles were caught either so you have to wonder about several year classes possibly being affected or is there something even more pervasive going on out there...?

[carpedium]

Maybe bull sharks. jk jk

[jason]

This salmon place in the pen 4 yrs ago were to big for the pens. They were already imprinted for the salmon river that's why they most of the fish travel east.

[bandrus1]

last year was a record year for returns....

[Gill-T]

Maybe 1/2 of the 3 year old kings we caught this year had an intact adipose fin.  One could conclude that the success of a fishing year would depend heavily on natural reproduction conditions in the rivers three years prior.  Bad river temps during the spawn, river fishermen success/take, spring conditions etc. are going to be factors in the size of the pool of salmon to catch out in the lake.  I also question the practice of inserting the micro chips into the nose of young fragile salmon fry.....do we really know what the actual mortality is of fish undergoing this process?  What about the mortality of the adipose fin clipping machine?  I would also add that if conditions in the smaller tribs were too warm that fish will move with the rest of the school elsewhere.  This year I think most are going to the Salmon, but a large portion of the western fish are going up the Niagara.  The bottom line is based on observed bait pods on the fishfinder.......we need more kings stocked!!!!!!

[carpedium]

Maybe 1/2 of the 3 year old kings we caught this year had an intact adipose fin.  One could conclude that the success of a fishing year would depend heavily on natural reproduction conditions in the rivers three years prior.  Bad river temps during the spawn, river fishermen success/take, spring conditions etc. are going to be factors in the size of the pool of salmon to catch out in the lake.  I also question the practice of inserting the micro chips into the nose of young fragile salmon fry.....do we really know what the actual mortality is of fish undergoing this process?  What about the mortality of the adipose fin clipping machine?  I would also add that if conditions in the smaller tribs were too warm that fish will move with the rest of the school elsewhere.  This year I think most are going to the Salmon, but a large portion of the western fish are going up the Niagara.  The bottom line is based on observed bait pods on the fishfinder.......we need more kings stocked!!!!!!

 

 

How do you know the age of the fish? Were they dark and in the stream? Also, they do check a representative sample of CWT'd fish 30 days after tagging. If the tags kill them, wouldn't they be belly up in the tanks?

Edited September 12, 2013 by carpedium

[Xxx]

What about all the derbies a year, every year there seem to be more, I understand that they generate money for great causes, but it seemed every weekend there were derbies somewhere. I'm buy no means saying STOP the derbies, and don't even have enough knowledge about them, as I never fished on or even spectated one. I'm just curious as to how many fish fall victim to all the pro's out there, who can really lay the smack down on them? or is that just a pee in the bucket as to what the real problem is.

[Gill-T]

I am sure they have run all kinds of studies about the short term usage of the tagging program.....I wonder if the DEC knows if there are longer term ramifications? Does the chip interfere with the little nerve endings in the snout that might help the fish orient to their natal stream? I would prefer the fingerlings not be handled at all....we need everyone of the little buggers to make it.

[skipper19]

I'm inclined to think most of the matures have migrated east and some skippers likely follow. The west end in general has been very warm for this time of year, and the oak orchard river is very warm, and slow moving, much like the sandy and 18 mile. These western end rivers are subjected to sunlight much longer, move too slow to cool much without adequate cloudy rainy days. There have been few days of clouds and rain in the past month.

Faster moving waters like the salmon river and the black river cool earlier due to more wooded areas of fast flowing water and the prevailing rain and wind off the lake moving into the Adirondacks dropping colder rain on the elevations.

The Niagara is colder than any western river due to its depth, and some west end salmon prefer that over the 18 mile, oak and sandy.

I just think the majority has gone east. The fish were here off the Oak, but they were in small pods that you had to prospect more for. Last year it seemed you could set up anywhere at almost anyplace 200 to 500 fow and run right into a great amount of consistent catch. We needed more rain and some cooler temps this season. I still think there is a class of salmon offshore, yet. Good runs of the Oak are not usually going on until end of September, on into mid October and later, but this warm inside waters has moved the fish that were earlier checking the Oak to cooler waters...they aren't so willing to die in warm water before spawn, and nature tells them the spawn will likely have no chance at life. I think we will see some fish finally move in from offshore, only if we get cold rain and cloudy days to entice them. They do still have time. It's only The beginning of September, and a hot dry one at that!

Mark

Sent from my PC36100 using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Whether its a good year, or a not so good year, the movement of Kings to the east end in big numbers is well documented. Not only are most of the tribs over there better suited for natural reproduction, the stocked fish undergo less stress and leave the SR on their own accord. These concerns have been addressed for several years with the DEC, and only recently have I felt they are acknowledging our observations.

Do not for a minute think the Niagara gets disproportionately large returns.Even though they can stage out on the bar, they can be fish moving east, west, or north. Not to mention, the enormous fleet that crops the matures right out of the gate every Spring. Ever since Caledonia hatchery was dropped as a Chinook rearing facility, the returns to the Niagara have been very small--even DEC staffers recording data at the cleaning stations have documented this.

Years ago, DEC biologists told us Chinooks stocked smaller than 130/LB were just fish food-"paper numbers". I think this is  our greatest problem, as even the fish delivered for the pens have been late and very small . I think the pens have certainly helped, but it could be so much better if the water quality issues could be resolved at the Altmar hatchery.

Lastly, the predation on stocked fingerlings is at an all time high, as many tribs and harbors abound with desireable and undesireable warm water species today that were not as abundant years ago. This must be taken into account when figuring stocking numbers--the Alewife population isn't even close to being controlled, which of course leaves therm vulnerable to a big winterkill should we have a bad winter. For anglers, catch rates will always be partially determined by the amount of preyfish available. In my opinion, leaving the Alewife population underpredated leaves them more at risk.      

[LongLine]

I believe there are two major factors that answer the OP's question:

 

1. Back in 2010/2011 there were some major survival issues with the Chinook egg take & survival of the broodstock.  Warm water, flow, EMS, change in feed specs.  2012 stocking was only 1.5M.  Target was 1.7M. DEC scrambled and the 1.5 M included 240K from MNR.  This caused DEC to re-think how they take eggs & many changes were made.  2004-2007 they had put in 1.8M each year.  2009 was a disaster as only .8M were stocked.  I believe no fish were clipped in 2012 due to worries about survival. (refer to my State of Lake notes in the "Article" section)

 

2. Changes in lake.  Alewife population is up and due to invasives, they generally live farther off shore.  I know I ran into some tremendous bait pods in 200 FOW.  Most of the successful trips this year were from guys that had no problem going out to 5-600 FOW.

 

Tom B.

(LongLine) 

[Gill-T]

I believe if egg/fry/fingerling production is low with the state hatchery/altmar that they supplement their stocking with canadian fish which are then dumped into Niagara.  Stands to reason anytime there is a shortfall at Altmar...three years later the Niagara run would be better in theory. 

[Yankee Troller]

We had a great season on Salmon, but we also fish where the Salmon live most of the Spring and Summer. One thing to take into consideration for this past season was the amount of wind we had. It seemed like it never stopped! It would come from one direction one day, and then swing around and blow from the other. Our "inside water" at the Oak never set up. We fished 25N-32N all of July and August. It was the most stable water! 

 

There probably are other factors, but I'm blaming Mother Nature!

[Adk1]

the only king I caught this year was a 24lb with the adipose fin intact

[jekyll]

The East end was much slower this year and less predictable. Saw lots of bait in the early season and then not much in late July and August.

 

I talked with a DEC sample taker at a tournament and he stated that well over 50%of the fish they saw this year were natural reproduction.

[mudflat]

I agree with Rick, the winds this year kept the inside temps all messed up and I think most of the kings stayed in the "blue zone" where bait was abundant and temps stable.  I marked unbelievable amounts of fish and bait in shallow but they sure weren't active in the warm temps.  If we could get out deep enough, weather permitting, we still had to go down +120 to find active fish and they seemed spread out.  Just the opposite of last year.

 

It's a big lake and there's a lot of area that most of us don't ever fish

 

Rick, I would be careful blaming "Mother Nature", I wouldn't want her mad at me! ,

[hawkeye625]

Also agree with Rick.  The water changed almost every weekend we came up.  One week it would be 45 degrees in 50 fow and the next it would be 65 down 90.  We had to hunt for fish almost every week but once we found them they were eager to bite.  Probly my best year for majors, many in the mid 20's and up...also many with the adipose fin in tact.  My thoughts were the weather had them scattered.

 

This year seems to be a couple of weeks behind last year, for us anyhow.  I guess the runs in the rivers will give us a better idea of how many fish are actually left, but I'm guessing there'll still be good numbers.

[salmonboy41]

I believe if egg/fry/fingerling production is low with the state hatchery/altmar that they supplement their stocking with canadian fish which are then dumped into Niagara.  Stands to reason anytime there is a shortfall at Altmar...three years later the Niagara run would be better in theory. 

I would agree with that. As the past two years the runs up the Niagara where really good for the first time in years and if you look back a few years thats when the DEC had stocking issues so I'd say this thoery is correct.

[Adk1]

was a tough year for us guys with no down temp

[Sweet Caroline]

Ditto on the wind this year compared to last year. Mature bite was stupid last year down at Niagara...not so much this year. Despite the wind this year our mature summer bite was actually better than last year. Died labor weekend which by then the fishing is normally slower anyway.

[Sweet Caroline]

Also, "lack of salmon" is relative especially if you were talk to guys who fished the lake during the 90's early 2000's.

[salmonella]

I just reviewed the DEC Lake Ontario Boat Survey for 2013 from 4/15 thru 7/31. The way I read it they project that we caught 28,027 Kings during this time frame which is 38% less than the same time in 2012, 50% less than 2011, 14% less than 2010 and 60% less than 2009. I would expect the full year numbers to be even worse given the poor King fishing we experienced at least on the Western End of Lake Ontario this year. I agree that the winds played a part BUT I believe the consistent poor quality of the Hatchery Kings is another big reason. The little guys from the Hatchery just aren't surviving to contribute to the Fishery like the wild fish are.     

[GAMBLER]

Here are a couple questions I think about when I recap this season:

 

1.  How unstable was the weather this season? 

2.  How could the bait population explode that much in one year? 

3.  Did I fish offshore in more stable water to find more fish? 

4.  What were the conditions like the fall these matures were hatched in the wild? 

5.  How many days did you want to pull your hair out because the screen was full of marks and you could not get them to go? 

 

This season, the winds were unstable and as we all know, trout and salmon seek stable water.  I for one did not spend much time way offshore looking when the inside waters were slow.  I know of a couple guys that made the run all summer and were greated with huge numbers of all year classes of kings.  The bait we marked this season was amazing.  I can remember days in the 90's where we did not mark an entire school of bait all day.  With all the bait, we have more competition with our lures.  With all these wild fish from the salmon river and possibly other tribs, we can expect up and down year classes due to flooding, droughts, snagging and other issues that challenge the wild kings.  We have been spoiled in the seasons before this year  (2012, 2011, and 2010).  Unfortunatly every year will be different. 

[Has Been]

Not an infinite # of fish out there. A great year one year may mean a not so great year the next as the available fish to catch & spawn have been boxed . Weather is a huge factor.Were the fish in close or did the wind blow the current & good water & bait  across the lake where they stayed when winds /weather stabilized ?  I figured out a long time ago that every year is the same, they are all different. Two springs ago it was a brown bite,  last spring the kings were all over the lake. This spring a lot of lakers.Figuring it out is part of the fun.