Barmaid Fish

[Nessmuk]

I just googled "alewife" to learn more about them.   Was totally amazed to find that they are not native? to our Finger Lakes and in fact are considered an invasive species?  I read about Lake George trout being threatened due to them.   I read that they were only native to NE Canada and US going as far west as Niagara river prior to Welland canal.    Anyone have any insight on this subject?

 

Jack

[ontherise]

They say alewives are the reason atlantics are having a hard time reproducing.

[Frogger]

Ill go out on a limb but its been a few years from when I did a thesis on the St Lawrence and the Welland. The theory is correct and if I remember right, also the main reasons as to why the Chinook had to be stocked in Lake Ontario. Some other inland lakes were purposefully stocked with Alewives but cant rememebr the reasons for it.

Ontherise hit the bullseye on the landlock issue, they have some enzyme that can affect the the larval stage of trout and salmon, heck I think they named it after Cayuga Lake but Id have to check.

Maybe others can chime in, my fisheries brain has turned into how fast and what color spin docter to use lol.

[Sk8man]

The deficiency is result of the enzyme thiaminase which when present does inhibit reproduction in trout and salmon. My hunch is that the problem wasn't as pronounced when there were good levels of rainbow smelt available in the lakes that provided an ample supply of nutrients (despite not being as rich in oil or calories) as alewives which originally were also salt water bait fish.  I think they are thought to have migrated up the Hudson to the St. Lawrence into Lake Ontario and then into the other Great Lakes from there through the Welland Canal. The Cayuga and Seneca Fingers are connected to Lake Ontario by the Seneca River chain of water through Cross Lake etc. and locals around here have thought the alewives came via that route.....if anyone knows differently for sure feel free to correct me.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Sk8man

[Nessmuk]

Les,

 

Alewives came up the St. Lawrence from what I have been reading but results are same entering through the canals. I assume the other lakes were populated by baitfish brought in?   Do smelt still exist in the Finger Lakes and if so are they in numbers enough to serve as additional forage fish?

 

Frogger,

 

 "my fisheries brain has turned into how fast and what color spin docter to use" I can understand that!    After spending many years "matching the hatch" I think in terms of learning about the prey with the idea of learning more about the target predator.

 

While exploring my own library I read a piece in Mc Clean's book and found out that what I called "mooneyes" as a kid are alewives.    The other interesting thing is that I normally think in terms of only fishing structure but much of what I read indicates that the schools of alewives can be large and anywhere in a large lake including open water.   This changes my ideas of where to fish.

 

Does anyone attempt to catch alewives to use as bait?   Especially in Hemlock/Canadice?  

[Sk8man]

The other lakes were probably populated by alewives being "brought in" as bait (e.g. Conesus) and they are prohibited on some lakes (E.g. Honeoye). Rainbow Smelt used to be seen in very great numbers in many  of the Finger Lakes and they were prized by some for eating and by others (like me) for bait for trout and pike etc. Unfortunately for the past ten years or more the populations of smelt have diminished almost to the point of extinction on lakes like Seneca and Canandaigua where the streams used to be packed with them each Spring. People after them are lucky to see even a few now days. As far as people catching and using alewives as bait it was done for many years on many of the Finger Lakes for still fishing and night fishing for example but a major problem with the hemmoragic virus pretty much put a stop to it as you have to have a receipt for live bait from a store (or the packaging from commercially prepared bait) or be able to prove that you have obtained the bait only in the water you are fishing.....so most folks don't bother with it anymore.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Sk8man

[keukakatch&release]

 

 

 

Does anyone attempt to catch alewives to use as bait?   Especially in Hemlock/Canadice?   

 

 

I catch the heck out of em at night in the spring on keuka.  Never had a problem with the DEC.  The ones I catch are bigger and more lively than the bait shop fish.  I seem to de better on em too.  its fun, but ya gotta have a bright light and be willing to stay up late for em to come in.   

[devoknevo]

The DEC are the ones that stocked Conesus with alewives. It was to become a trout lake but the trout they stocked dissapeared and the alewives took over. it is said to be the reason for the perch crash years ago.

[keukakatch&release]

. it is said to be the reason for the perch crash years ago.

 

 

That makes sense.  As I understand it, the alewife spawn after the perch, in the same areas,  and find their eggs delicious. 

[Nessmuk]

I catch the heck out of em at night in the spring on keuka.  Never had a problem with the DEC.  The ones I catch are bigger and more lively than the bait shop fish.  I seem to de better on em too.  its fun, but ya gotta have a bright light and be willing to stay up late for em to come in.   

I was thinking more in terms of a minnow trap.   Never saw mooneyes in Rochester bait shops?

[keukakatch&release]

Super easy to catch with patience and a dip net. I was referring to the keuka bait shops. I've never seen saw bellies for sale in rochester either. Not sure a minnow trap would be effective.

[Nessmuk]

How do you attract them to the dip net?  Just bright light or bait too?

[Sk8man]

One of the problems with alewives (sawbellies) is keeping them in captivity is quite difficult if talking more than a day or so without specialized circulating tanks, access to unclorinated water and the die off rate is still high. They are quite fragile...even more so than rainbow smelt.  They are often netted in fairly deep water by commercial bait guys at night and when we used to night fish on Canandaigua and Keuka we used lanterns hung over the side of the boat (I used to put mine on my 4 ft.downrigger booms at a 90 degree angle on each side of the boat which attracts bugs and the sawbellies then come up in bunches to get the flies and you used dip net to catch them when they got near the surface...you could see them rising from the depths and sometimes a rainbow, brown or laker would be in hot pursuit of them....was a lot of fun. Nothing like waking up and hearing your drag going out with a good fish on in the dark and trying to avoid tangling in your anchor rope   During the Spring for still fishing (mainly lakers) off the shoreline we used to use weighted throw nets when the sawbellies came close to the shoreline in masses and keep them in coolers with portable airators..

Edited December 19, 2013 by Sk8man

[rolmops]

I catch alewives in Lake Ontario with what I like to call an "umbrella net".

While trolling we often go through a school of bait. When there is too much bait in the water the target fish often just laze around and take a nibble out of the school but they don't bother chasing a lure.

I sometimes circle right back through the bait school with my umbrella net at the proper depth and usually it produces a dozen of baitfish within a minute.

Then I use them on the edge of the bait schools.

As for keeping them alive, I use 5 gallon buckets with a max of 6 mooneyes per bucket. I add ice and put a lid on to keep it dark inside. The cold and dark stops them from being panicky and hurting themselves.

Even so,you have to keep changing the water so they don't poison themselves.

Edited December 20, 2013 by rolmops

[hermit]

Jack you don't need a light if you're on shore somewhere with lights, which is usually most public access points around the lakes.  I get them in late spring onwards at Taughannock Park at night. So do the commercial guys.  A dip net works great, it's what I've used the most, wait for them to surface boil and scoop.  I've seen a two man op with one guy casting a silver spoon and reeling it slowly to get them to follow, then the other guy scoops them up.  I've also used a string of tiny jig hooks to either catch or snag them.  This is a little slower depending on fish density and sometimes they don't bite either but it works. 

 

That said I have to point out that the only legal way to collect your own is with a gill net or minnow trap.   Cast nets, dip nets, seines, etc, are all against regs FYI.  If you can find any body of water that has alewives and no trout you may also use a seine.

[Sk8man]

A couple of things rolmops hit on are worth amplifying too....only keeping a few of them in the bucket at a time and use of cold water.... both factors relate to oxygen use. The colder the water the less oxygen used and when the alewives are first caught they are excited and use much more oxygen from the water...keeping  cover over it does seem to help calm them and keeps the water from warming from the sun if in the daylight. If too many alewives are kept in the container (even if aerated) they start dying off. If they are kept very long in a hard container (and especially if in a boat "knocking" around) they start to get bloody noses from bumping against the wall of the container and trying to escape leading to greater mortality. Changing the water (unclorinated only) frequently helps keep it oxygenated. In the Finger lakes area bait dealers who have them usually only have alewives as bait during the Spring when they are easier to catch (by wholesalers) and maintain short term in their aerated circulatory tanks (e.g. the National Trout Derby on Seneca) primarily tobe used by still fishermen. They are relatively expensive these days (about a dollar each or more).

Edited December 20, 2013 by Sk8man

[Nessmuk]

Guys,

 

Mooneyes seem as tough to keep as my wife's tropical fish!  Hermit, is a Nobel net legal      The whole thing of using mooneyes for bait sounds either expensive or difficult.   I think I'll stick to artificials !  If I ever catch something trophy size having a few mooneyes mounted with the trophy might make for an interesting mount though.

[Dick]

5 little gold hooks on a thread off a tip section of a flyrod with spitshot on the bottom. jig it  off a dock in about 5-6ft of water during the day, or under your light at nite. you catch enough, but a net under them after they chase the hooks get a lot. My uncle had a small deep horse trough with a small pump bringing water from the lake 5ft down to airerat, and keep a good flow going. On the dock in a bin with the over flow running into the lake. disguised the thing to be a cute seat to  keep Grandmother happy!

Dick B. PS. Don't use city water ice in your bait bucket!

Edited December 20, 2013 by Dick

[Ricbme]

Ok, here is how I get sawbellies. If you go to a bait shop to buy them expect to pay $1 each. My method will cost you $1.50 -$2 and I can use it on several trips if taken care of.   We can catch 50-60 in less than 10 minutes, normally by my 7 year old grandson.  So the first thing you need is an Ice fishing or small child fishing pole.  Next a Sabiki Rig!  I never heard of one until I went fishing for Grouper and Red Snapper in the gulf.  The first thing on that trip was to get bait, so I naturally figured he was going to use a cast net but he gave me a pole with 1 dozen hooks dressed like a fly and a 1 ounce sinker on the bottom.  He said throw it out 20 feet and don't reel until the line is vertical.  Imagine my surprise when on the first cast the temptation to set the hook was driving me crazy and when it was obvious the line was not going to be vertical I reeled in 12 six inch bait fish.  3 of us caught over 75 in just a few minutes and in the livewell they went.  On our way to the fishing grounds, 90 miles, I got to thinking, why couldn't I use that rig to catch sawbellies?  So the next day, off to the salt water bait shop I went and purchased 5 packs @ $1.35 each.  Since I was going to use these at night I purchased glow in the dark with #12 hooks.  Back in NY, on Keuka, and after I told the guys we were not buying bait tonight I rigged it up on an ice rod.  We put the light in the water and once we saw a just a few darting around, I tossed the line out about 15 feet, let it go til vertical and I feel them on.  My buddies expressions were priceless.  I brought in 9 on the first cast and from then on everyone had to have a turn.  I used the same rig on at least six trips catching well over 100, well worth the $1.35.  My grandkids have a blast with it.  Not only catches sawbellies but also bluegill, perch and sunfish off the dock. Here is a link with more info.  You can buy them online or tie up some like Dick said.

http://www.theonlinefisherman.com/how-to-all/440-how-to-tie-all-fishing-knots/6203-how-to-use-a-sabiki-rig-for-bait

[Sk8man]

Sounds good but there is a slight problem with the 12 hook rig...it is illegal. You may only use a maximum of 5 lures or baits with a maximum of 15 hook points. The Sabiki flies count as lures rather than just "hook points". in N.Y.S. waters

[Nessmuk]

Sounds like the sawbellies would take any small wet fly.  Just use 5 flies on the leader!    Fly fishing for alewives could become a new sport!   7X leader on a 3wt line/rod!    Time to make a fly fishing for sawbellies video to sell.   Also time to develop fly patterns specifically for sawbellies.  But wait there's more!     Just look what a simple query can develop into

 

Has anyone preserved alewives in oil or salt and then fished with them?

[Sk8man]

I used frozen ones behind cowbells (flashers) for years for lakers

[Ricbme]

Thanks Sk8man for reminding me of the regulation  .  I knew about the 5 lure (as with a seth green) but all I was thinking was less than 15 points. Guess I better cut them down to 5. 

 

[Sk8man]

You're welcome ....best of luck fishing.

[Gill-T]

Smelt are invasive to the great lakes as well.

http://www.seagrant.umn.edu/ais/smelt