Dipsy Rods

[Adm Byrd]

I know there are 2 schools of thought on dipsy rod length and we have been using a pair of 10 footers for years but my boat is 18 feet and I am sick of trying to manuver them so I want to get a pair around 8 feet long. I've read where people are using custom rods which I'm sure are excellent but I'm betting pricier than my budget so I'm asking what kinds of shorter more reasonably priced rods you're using? I wish to stick with twilly tips over rollers.

Thanks,

Bob

[JakeyBaby]

If you want to try and go that short with your rod, rollers are really the only way to go when your talking diver rods.

[steelydan]

i have been using okuma 8' 6'' with twili tips with pretty good results. my boat is a 19 foot same scenario.

[ontherise]

Look up lake timber tackle company in fairport and talk to Anthony, his prices are competitve he accepts paypal and delivers with insurance

[fathobbit0074]

I like the okumas I got 8'6 and they are great

[fathobbit0074]

I use twill tip and they work fine. I never had rollers so I guess I don't know what I'm missing

[Big Dave]

Roller rods reel in easier .  You seem to get alot of friction going over the spring tip imo.   Fish Dr. 7' roller for me.

[Sk8man]

I'm with Dave all the way (100%)   (roller tips) on that one! I also know that Bob will now be locked into the twilli tip approach for sure because I said that

Edited January 14, 2014 by Sk8man

[John E Powell]

If you go with softer 19 strand wire on your reel as compared to the 7 strand variety, you can use just about any decent rod with the correct action (mod fast to fast) and sufficient power to pull your diver. Most ceramic ring factory rod guides will hold up to casual weekend use. I would not however consider them adequate for serious fisherman, charter boats, or tournament where money might be on the line.

You really only need to replace the tip, and then you either are looking at a Twili, or one of the various roller tips.

Keep in mind that you also really only need just enough reach to get around your side rigger cable. 10'-10'6" rods are almost always the wrong rods on a trailerable boat under 21-22' or so.

Don't spend a lot of money on an all roller factory rod. At those prices, you should be able to get into a no-frills custom rod from your local builder; if they know what they are doing, you'll have a better rod for your money.

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[Adm Byrd]

OK, what are you guys using for roller rods and how long are they?

Bob

[Big Dave]

I use the Fish Doctor 7' roller dipsie rods.   Capt. Jeff ( Miss-em) and his Dad make them.  One piece blank , Much easier to handle a King with and work great on the fingerlakes smaller fish too.  My old fishing partner was 87 and wouldn't take his turn with the longer rods.  He could handle a king no problem with the 7' rod.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Big Dave

[Xxx]

Wow a 7ft rod, that would certainly make a difference on my boat, it's a 22ft cuddy but with the engine box sticking up about 2ft high and 30"s wide it gets tight at times with the longer rods, will be looking into those type rods. What do you think about a lead core rod med. heavy, 6'6" and put a roller tip on, I could run those off the back, I have enough room along side my riggers and use my dipsy rods mid ship and two rods off each rigger I only have 2, so that would be 8 rods and that's enough for us guys, we manage a few tangles every now and then. I usually only have my uncle with and he is 71, so he usually drives and I tend the rods until we hook a fish and then we switch so he can have the fun. So many times we only can run 6 rods. PS. I did a little home work and it seams that most of the guys that convert the rods with the regular type guides to roller guides only use one roller at the last eyelet before the reel and of course the tip to a roller, they claim you can use shorter rods and it makes for easier cranking on the reel handle. I don't get why would the roller guides make for easier cranking on the shorter rods, why do you only need a twilli tip on a longer rods. (AFCO rear roller and tip, with the guides the rod came with in the middle info from thehulltruth) PAP.

 

[rustyrat]

What you run for dipsy rods is.pretty much personal preference. I use the 10' 6" heartlands. I don't like the shorter rod because it's too close to my rigger booms. I like them out further. <br />

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[GAMBLER]

Only issue with short rods in small boats is leader length when netting a fish. Sometimes hand lining the fish in is a must.

[Chas0218]

Only issue with short rods in small boats is leader length when netting a fish. Sometimes hand lining the fish in is a must.

X2

 

I like longer rods because I can get the leaders in easier and out and around my outside riggers.

 

I use 2 of the okuma 9' rods and 1 diawa 10' firewolf. I wish I would have spent the money on the longer okuma rods now.

 

If you're that concerned about the wire just run some 50# power pro and be done with it.  I fished all of july with 50# PowerPro on the 2 okuma rods and had no issues with fleas. The braid is now 3 seasons old.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Chas0218

[Xxx]

AAHHHH I get it with the shorter rods and the longer leaders you can't get the fish close enough to net. Alright then I'll stay with what I got, I have enough rods and reels, don't need more sitting in the corner of the garage. 

[Big Dave]

My boat is a 22' Islander hardtop . Run about a 8' leader from the dipsie to the flasher and fly .   The net is streached out so it sticks just above the hardtop when stored.  No problem netting the fish with the 7' rod.  We run the dipsies on a 1.5 to 3.5 setting so they pull out past the riggers fine .  The holders are about 3' foward of the riggers and the riggers have a 4' boom.  We run them at the 45 degree setting on the swivel.  That leaves the center open for the dreaded copper or a leadcore.

[John E Powell]

Pap, (and others)

 

To answer your question about why someone may say one thing and someone else may say something contradictory and both say it works for them, you have to consider that some people's only experience may be with just a rod or two, and in their eyes what they have works great for them (and it might). But that doesn't mean it will work for you in your boat.

 

In fact, If you don't mind "curlies" in your wire and are willing to trim your wire back now and then, you don't need any roller tip or even a Twili. The uses of such upgrades are really for the convenience of the angler, not a necessity for the gear to function properly. As to the length of the rods, every boat layout is different and thus will have a unique set of factors to consider. One 18' boat might need 10' diver rods and another 18' boat can use 7' rods just fine. Only you can determine how much reach you need for your boat. Acting on the advice of someone who has never seen your boat or how the gear is laid out, let alone fished on it, is a poor approach at best.

 

As to having the stripper guide (the one in front of the reel) a roller, there again is no requirement of any kind to do so. It is purely a personal preference which may or may not be based in any actual measurable benefit. For instance, someone might say "well the roller guide gives me more clearance so the wire doesn't rub over my left hand when I hold the grip". That may be true, but that doesn't mean you have to use a roller guide to get that clearance - any high frame guide of similar height would offer the same "benefit".

 

Just about everything has pluses and minuses, and roller guides are no different. They are heavy, expensive, and considerably alter the action of the blank they are installed on, much more so than high-quality, less expensive, and lighter ceramic ring guides. Rollers also require the angler to orient the rod towards the load or risk jumping the wire off the roller between the roller and frame. This means you should turn the rods (so the reel faces forward when in the rod holder), not upright where many people prefer to orient them. Rollers also require routine maintenance to keep them working well.

 

Let’s examine the assertion that there is less effort to turn the roller than to drag the wire over a guide. Assuming the roller is turning freely, this is probably true, but what does that means in terms of fighting a fish. It means that as you pump the rod upwards (and are not turning the handle) there is no actual advantage because the roller isn't turning; any advantage the roller might offer is only noticed under a lighter load when you drop the rod tip to wind line on the reel. During the rod tip drop and recovery, the perceived effect of having an easy turning roller is actually less than one might think. I'm not saying it’s not a factor in the overall experience of using that rod, I'm saying there are two other factors that are MUCH more significant to the overall experience of using that rod than how freely the line travels over a particular guide.

 

By far, the greatest factor is Rod length. The longer the rod, the more effort you will need to apply to the rod to accomplish the same amount of work. I've already demonstrated in another post that the difference between a 10' diver rod and a 7' diver rod can be as much as 30-40% more effort from the angler to land the same fish on the longer rod. No other factor comes close. Simply put, long rods, big heavy fish, and trolling boats are just a bad combo for small people (kids), weaker people and the elderly.

 

The next greatest factor (in rods with conventional trolling reels) is what rod designers refer to as the lever-arm effect of the guides on a rod blank. The lever-arm effect is well known to manufacturers who build large reels. One of the reasons large reels have lugs on top to attach a harness to is to stabilize the reel (and rod) by minimizing the effect of the lever-arm on the rod.

 

For our purposes in freshwater, think of it this way:

 

When a guide is positioned above a blank the force applied to the guide by the load does a couple things, it distributes the load from the line by deflecting (bending) the rod it is attached to, but it also twists the guides to one side or the other towards the path of least resistance. When guides twist to the side, they in turn twist the rod blank, which applies a torque to the hand holding the rod. This torque must be continuously overcome by the angler or the rod will turn upside down in their hands - this effect tasks strength in a person's back, shoulder, arm, wrist, hand and fingers. Exacerbating this effect is the fact that every turn of the reel handle applies a continually varying torque to the rod which varies the total torque effect, and the angler's muscles must attempt to continuously compensate for that torque which is all the more tiring.

 

When the angler becomes tired, they can no longer overcome the varying torque loads and the rod begins to twist and turn in their hand, and the whole experience becomes a struggle. What I've just described is what you see when you observe any small child attempt to use a large rod. While they may be able to do so, that struggle is quite difficult for them. With the elderly, that struggle can be painful and not enjoyable at all. Ever wonder why so many dad's and grandfathers seem to want to pass off a big fish to someone else or maybe they choose not to use certain rods like that 500' copper rig? The pain they are experiencing in various parts of their body is real, and over time, it just isn't enjoyable any more. If you take away one things from the whole lever-arm effect, understand that the taller the guide above the blank, the worse the lever-arm effect of the guide will be, and that the exact opposite is true - the further below the rod blank a guide is, the more beneficial the lever arm effect will be able in contributing to stabilize the rod from other forces (like turning the reel handle under load). This is why spiral wrapped rods, where the guides quickly transition from the top of the rod to the underside of the rod, are so much more enjoyable to land large fish on. There are formulas to estimate the effect of the lever-arm phenomena but suffice it to say, depending on the rod it can vary to between 10-25% additional total effort to land a fish on a conventionally wrapped rod vs a spiral (the heavier the rod and load, the taller the guides, the greater the benefit).

 

In all honesty, roller guide rods are dinosaurs. In talking with my rodbuilding friends who build rods professionally up and down the coast, they are only being used on really heavy gear. For example, Tuna guys use them because they don’t pump their rods, they keep their rods in holders and wind the fish onto the reel using the rod solely as a shock absorber. In this case the roller guide's advantage of less drag compared to regular guides makes sense. It would also make sense in the Great Lakes if you stuck your rod in a rod holder and only turned the reel handle to bring your fish to net. But I bet you don't fish that way.

 

In all honesty, if you came to me today and asked me to build you a custom all-roller diver rod for salmon fishing and I knew you were going to use it like a traditional diver rod, I would pass on the job because I know I wouldn't be building you the best rod I could.

 

Now a roller tip (or a Twili), as a convenience accessory to help keep the curlies to a minimum, that makes complete sense. What makes the most sense? A rod that is only as long as you need it to be, spiral wrapped with quality ceramic or tungsten carbide guides that can stand up to the wire, a front grip sized and placed to compliment your personal physique, and a roller tip (or Twili) that hangs under the rod like the rest of the spiraled guides. Are you going to find that on a rod rack in your tackle store, probably not, and I know that. I also know that custom rods only appeal to about 10% of people who fish, so for the 90% trying to get the best they can from a tackle store's rod rack your job is to cut through the passion, hype and conjecture from what you read or hear and consider what really matters to you. Only in that way will you be able to pick a rod in your budget that best matches your needs. This will be your platform to modify with a new tip of your choice.

 

Probably the best advice I can offer to you is to invite out some buddies on your boat who have different diver rods, and try them out to see which work well and which don't work so well.

 

Believe me when I say that when I meet with other rodbuilders who build great lakes trolling rods, each and every one will agree with me that there is no more challenging rod to get right than diver rods. It’s difficult even for us pros to get it 100% right, and some of us do this for a living, not just a hobby.

Edited January 15, 2014 by John E Powell

[Sk8man]

Thanks John. Now that is what I call a great explanation. I'm not about to throw out my roller rods yet (as I love them) but you made many great points for folks that are about to take the "plunge" can benefit from. I sure second the suggestion of actually trying out the equipment if possible beforehand....there is no right "one size (or type) fits all" to this issue.

[Xxx]

I just want to say THANK YOU ALL for your time and explanations for the rods and reels you guys use, You all are way more educated than I when it comes to fishing the big waters. I will take bits and pieces from all of you and come up with a setup that will suit the boat and my 71 year old uncle and of course me. Thanks to all !! pap.

[Has Been]

I have 2 diver rods , both about 10 ' one is a Diawa Accudepth, & I don't like it at all . Very Fast/Stiff  action that I think costs me fish.

The other is a Fenwick  blank I made myself.  It has more of a slower or Parabolic action .I cut 6 " off the tip of this rod w/ was 10'6" to start.  The ass of the rod is about 1/2 way up .I love this rod. I have an Eagle claw w/ a broken reel seat which was about the same.

 

 The fish have more leverage on me w/ the Diawa than the FenwicK. I get more tired w/ the Diawa than the Fenwick,which are about the same length.

 

 It's not so much the length but the Action IMO.

 

 I run 65 Lb power pro on both  for the last few years W/ no flea issues &  caught a  bunh of fish on them & see no reason to switch . I will add a wire rod to the lineup this year cause T- bro states that he catches 5 to 1 wire to braid. Looks like I'm going to be needing a WAY bigger cooler this year. Hope my arms can take it.

Edited January 15, 2014 by Has Been

[TileMan Dan]

Mr Powell that was certainly an earful, but full of usefull info. Will be looking into custom rods for myself in the future. Thank you for sharing your pro knowledge here. <br />

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[Adm Byrd]

Thanks John, most of our opinions are formed by what we have personally expierenced and that was why I started this post, hoping to learn from others expierence. Now I want to try a spiral rod, you seem to have plausible points for the design. I have decided that I am thinking correctly in shortening my rods, I remember my adult daughter trying to keep the rod up on a smaller king, she would have been much more in control with a shorter pole. Thanks again.

Bob

[TyeeTanic]

i have been using okuma 8' 6'' with twili tips with pretty good results. my boat is a 19 foot same scenario.

 

Yup, or the teloras, same size with twili tips. Work great.

 

I do like having two sizes on my boats. Helps get the dipseys away from each other when you have two off the one side. So one rod at 10 ft and another at 8'6"

[Chas0218]

Once you run a spiral rods you won't own any others. They are the best setup for fighting large fish.<br />

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Sent from my thinking chair...<br />

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