Primer ball won't stay hard...need help!

[IUP30]

So I have a 1989 Johnson Gt150 V6 and the other day the motor alarm went on as we were coming back in from fishing. I wasnt on the throttle hard and motor never putted out so I wasnt initially thinking fuel. After checking a few things, felt the primer ball and it wasnt hard at all. I p8t a new one in and its also not staying hard after a few pumps. It does draw gas from the tank if I just hook primer ball to the tank fuel line and not connected to the motor.

So, what else could this be? Could this be the fuel/water filter that maybe needs changed?

I bought this boat/motor under a year ago and it ran great for duck season as a tender boat with no issues.

What do you guys think?

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[old man]

I would check all the fuel lines under the cowl. They are pretty old and one or more could be cracked.

[LongLine]

All the fuel lines intact?  You don't smell any gas(olene) do you?  Fuel has to be going somewhere.  Anti-siphon valve?  Carburetor hoses?  Hose clamps?

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[momay4000]

_{Your primer bulb won't stay hard, eh?}

 

_{Did he try a hot babe and some Viagra?}

[IUP30]

Fuel lines are intact. Maybe primer ball isnt sucking enough gas? Or it could be from ball to engine...or as Old Man said it could be internal. I'm going to tear into it more tomorrow with someone who knows a little more.

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[Sk8man]

I would first check the connection of the fuel line at both ends because it may be sucking air possibly bad connector or crack in the line itself there near the clamps?

Edited May 28, 2014 by Sk8man

[IUP30]

Thank you guys for some other things to try tomorrow. I appreciate it.

Still young enough not to need the viagra though ; ) But also a reason I have little experience with motors...

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[quality time]

Replace the bulb. Ethanol eats the check valve in the bulb. Newer bulbs are ethanol compatible . Wes

[bailey]

The O ring in quick connect at tank if it got messed up will allow air in system. Also primet ball is just that you pump it to get fuel into carb and as float rises closes needle valve and ball gets. Hard due to pressure from check valve in primer up. Also what is the alarm for if motor never acted up by running rough I wouldn't be looking at fuel but maybe temperature and impeller myself.

[Kuba]

Whats p8t?

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[fish06]

I would replace all the lines and the anti-siphon valve on the tank. Had the same problem and it was the anti-siphon valve.

[ray koziatek]

Viagra..

[Sk8man]

I think Baily is right about the alarm going off....usually related to lack of oil or overheating from impeller problem.

[ray koziatek]

Primer ball doesnt really stay hard during normal running ,the only reason it gets hard when you "pump" is the fuel system in the motor is full the float comes up and seals the needle valve ..Normal operational height of fuel in the carb is below MAX fuel level ,thus soft ball..Alarm for as much as my pea brain knows on a 2 stroke is overtemp...ya mighta picked up some weeds ,plastic,in your intake for cooling if it only did it that once sometimes if you over trim motor trying to get that extra 1/2 mph without cavation of prop.. the intake is (cooling water) compromised with bubbles along with max rpm the motor will run hot...4 strokes have a 2nd alarm for oil also

[Chas0218]

Mine has an alarm for fuel starvation (Johnson 150) because of the VRO pump.  I couldn't figure out what was going on and it was from a kinked line when I would trim the motor, I just had to install OMC grade fuel line and no problems after that.

[IUP30]

Thanks again guys - really helpful stuff.  I do have the VRO pump in this motor so I'm glad to hear that someone else had a similar issue and it was an easy fix. 

 

The ball does pump gas up but it didn't seem like it was a lot of gas.  And yes, it wouldn't stay completely firm while running but in the past it would typically get to a point where I knew the gas was there and getting to the motor.  Now it takes way more pumps of the ball to get it even close to that same firmness, then softens quickly.

 

Going to check/replace fuel lines and likely as a safety just replace the impeller also since I don't know when that was done last.

 

How long are the fuel/water filters usually good for?  Again - not sure when it was changed last and no idea how to tell that it's in need of changing.

[Kuba]

Filters are cheap. I would probably replace ut every season?

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[CaptSpike]

Ray has the best answer in my opinion.

 

I had 89 johnson 150's on my Sea Ox. A solid alarm is overheating. I had this happen twice. Once when i picked up a nag and again when the ring was going in one of the cylinders. The older high HP outboards were know for carbon build up behind the rings. Believe me I know from first hand experience (twice). The first time I was using cheaper 2 cycle oil, still TWC# rated but the cheaper lubrimatic brand. Had one motor over heat and then stop on me. Came in on the second motor. Turned out to be rings scoring the cylinder wall. Expensive fix, I replaced with rebuilt heads both motors. At that point I decided to use the high quality oil. I bought the Jonhson 2 cycle oil in 55 gal drum, which would last me about two years. Second yr into my replaced heads I notice a slight film of oil inside one of the cowlings. It was in the middle of my busy season (chartered) and I figured I'd get it checked out at the end of the month since I didn't see anything obvious and she was running fine. Well I didn't make the end of the month. Motor siezed, ran back on second motor. turned out the seal around the shaft at the top of the engine was leaking and the #1 cylinder shares that for lubrication, so the #1 wasn't get the correct lub and over time finally siezed. Another expensive job to repower with a rebuilt head.......Only did one that time.

So definitely change the impellar so you know when it was last done. Then monitor for any more alarms. BTW the oil alarm will be intermittent. Had that happen when my oil got low, luckily no problems from that.

The oil pumps were also known to be troublesome on those engines. So if your alarm was an intermittent one it could be an indicator that the injector pump may be having problems as well.

 

Good luck with it, the problems never seem to end with a boat.

 

Spike

[IUP30]

OK - so here's an update.  I was able to find the old maintenance records from the last owner when he had the motor worked on in 2009.  He barely used the motor after the work he had done but I did a lot of digging last night into the fuel line issue and think I've got some things narrowed down.  A new VRO pump was installed in 2009 as well as a water pump kit (does this include impeller? - I wasn't sure). 

 

So - I checked the primer ball again and now it wasn't sucking any gas.  I disconnected fuel line from motor to ball and tried to get gas to shoot out the primer ball - no go.  Changed primer ball to a brand new one - same thing.  So now, I back-track and check hoses.  I replaced the hose from primer ball to fuel/water filter and tried to pump gas up - still no go.  So now I'm figuring that it's either the fuel/water filter or from the gas tank itself to the fuel/water filter.  I pull up the floor board and get to the gas tank and I can see immediately where something is off.  The fuel line from the tank is somewhat pinched.  It seems the floor board over time has warped and with the weight of someone standing there it was pushing the board down onto the fuel line hose and clamping it off.  This could have explained the intermittent alarm potentially.  I reconnected the lines as normal and held the pinched portion of the hose open and pumped the ball - sure enough, gas was starting to pull from the tank.  Going to be replacing all the fuel line hoses but need to pick up some additional 3/8 in hose today to complete that and give it a check.

 

Two other things I have questions on.  When I was able to hold open the hose and pump the ball, it would get gas up there but it seemed like it would drain away back into the tank.  That sounds like the anit-siphon valve, correct?  I was likely going to replace anyway with the rest of the fuel line just to be sure but to the un-educated me, this is what it partly seems to be.

 

Now - the last question is the VRO pump.  I checked connections and they seem good - I had just re-filled the oil and checked the primer ball on the VRO and it's hard as a rock.  I hadn't needed to pump this ball before (only owned the boat since last summer and used it maybe 10 times during the winter) as the oil was pulling into the engine and the level in the oil tank was going down from use.  Now that I've refilled and tried the primer ball and found it was this hard, it has me concerned that something may be clogged or pinched off there also.  Is the ball on the VRO typically that hard when it has oil in there?  As I mentioned, it's a newer pump with little use on it.  Any suggestions on what to try with the VRO?  And - no, I don't want to pull it off the engine and pre-mix oil/gas at this time.

 

Thanks,

 

Scott

[Chas0218]

My Oil primer bulb is generally hard,  I can usually get about half a pump.  I have never had to prime it except for the first time of the season and that is usually only pump and half.  If you really wanted to see if your mixture is right and your pump is working properly you need to fill your fuel tank and the oil reservoir then fill the tank and oil res to the same spot after a couple trips and measure how much gas you put in and do the same for the oil. use your numbers and set up a proportion. 

 

50:1  

50 Gallons of gas:1 gallon of oil

 

example:

50 gallons of gas/10 gallons used=5

 

Convert 1 gallon to oz.= 128oz.

 

128oz/5=25.6oz this is the amount of oil you should have used since you last filled the motor.

 

 

 

Ray has the best answer in my opinion.

 

I had 89 johnson 150's on my Sea Ox. A solid alarm is overheating. I had this happen twice. Once when i picked up a nag and again when the ring was going in one of the cylinders. The older high HP outboards were know for carbon build up behind the rings. Believe me I know from first hand experience (twice). The first time I was using cheaper 2 cycle oil, still TWC# rated but the cheaper lubrimatic brand. Had one motor over heat and then stop on me. Came in on the second motor. Turned out to be rings scoring the cylinder wall. Expensive fix, I replaced with rebuilt heads both motors. At that point I decided to use the high quality oil. I bought the Jonhson 2 cycle oil in 55 gal drum, which would last me about two years. Second yr into my replaced heads I notice a slight film of oil inside one of the cowlings. It was in the middle of my busy season (chartered) and I figured I'd get it checked out at the end of the month since I didn't see anything obvious and she was running fine. Well I didn't make the end of the month. Motor siezed, ran back on second motor. turned out the seal around the shaft at the top of the engine was leaking and the #1 cylinder shares that for lubrication, so the #1 wasn't get the correct lub and over time finally siezed. Another expensive job to repower with a rebuilt head.......Only did one that time.

So definitely change the impellar so you know when it was last done. Then monitor for any more alarms. BTW the oil alarm will be intermittent. Had that happen when my oil got low, luckily no problems from that.

The oil pumps were also known to be troublesome on those engines. So if your alarm was an intermittent one it could be an indicator that the injector pump may be having problems as well.

 

Good luck with it, the problems never seem to end with a boat.

 

Spike

 

I am in no way calling you out Spike but this is what I do throughout the season especially if my motor seems to run different. If you check you plugs periodically and notice a different colored plug(s) that means there is a problem.

 

If plugs are brownish tan that is a perfect mixture plug.  

If plug is black and lots of black soot then too much oil or fuel (most likely oil).

If plugs are a whiteish color with white soot that means running lean. 

Edited May 29, 2014 by Chas0218

[Chas0218]

You can also try the Dunks De-Carbing method to remove an excessive carbon build from your motor.  Many outboard manufactures will tell owners to "De-Carb" their motors.  It is very simple and from what I have read doesn't hurt the motor or its components.  I will be doing it this weekend to my motor as it has been idling something horrible and has a hard time starting.

 

I in no way take responsibility for the method used if something were to happen but if you google "Dunks De-Carb" you will get a ton of info on it.

 

I also think this could have saved Spike a motor or 2.

[CaptSpike]

OK - so here's an update.  I was able to find the old maintenance records from the last owner when he had the motor worked on in 2009.  He barely used the motor after the work he had done but I did a lot of digging last night into the fuel line issue and think I've got some things narrowed down.  A new VRO pump was installed in 2009 as well as a water pump kit (does this include impeller? - I wasn't sure). 

 

So - I checked the primer ball again and now it wasn't sucking any gas.  I disconnected fuel line from motor to ball and tried to get gas to shoot out the primer ball - no go.  Changed primer ball to a brand new one - same thing.  So now, I back-track and check hoses.  I replaced the hose from primer ball to fuel/water filter and tried to pump gas up - still no go.  So now I'm figuring that it's either the fuel/water filter or from the gas tank itself to the fuel/water filter.  I pull up the floor board and get to the gas tank and I can see immediately where something is off.  The fuel line from the tank is somewhat pinched.  It seems the floor board over time has warped and with the weight of someone standing there it was pushing the board down onto the fuel line hose and clamping it off.  This could have explained the intermittent alarm potentially.  I reconnected the lines as normal and held the pinched portion of the hose open and pumped the ball - sure enough, gas was starting to pull from the tank.  Going to be replacing all the fuel line hoses but need to pick up some additional 3/8 in hose today to complete that and give it a check.

 

Two other things I have questions on.  When I was able to hold open the hose and pump the ball, it would get gas up there but it seemed like it would drain away back into the tank.  That sounds like the anit-siphon valve, correct?  I was likely going to replace anyway with the rest of the fuel line just to be sure but to the un-educated me, this is what it partly seems to be.

 

Now - the last question is the VRO pump.  I checked connections and they seem good - I had just re-filled the oil and checked the primer ball on the VRO and it's hard as a rock.  I hadn't needed to pump this ball before (only owned the boat since last summer and used it maybe 10 times during the winter) as the oil was pulling into the engine and the level in the oil tank was going down from use.  Now that I've refilled and tried the primer ball and found it was this hard, it has me concerned that something may be clogged or pinched off there also.  Is the ball on the VRO typically that hard when it has oil in there?  As I mentioned, it's a newer pump with little use on it.  Any suggestions on what to try with the VRO?  And - no, I don't want to pull it off the engine and pre-mix oil/gas at this time.

 

Thanks,

 

Scott

The manual says to never pump the oil bulb. That bulb only exists to prime the line should you disconnect it.Pumping while connected can hurt the VRO pump. So don't do it.

As for the plugs it wouldn't matter what color they were. The Pump on those isn't adjustable so you get what you get from the pump. Back in the day a lot of guys were just disconnecting the pumps and mixing their fuel with oil the old fashoned way. My first engine problem was due to using cheap oil. not the VRO. That issue is well documented around that time frame, I just didn't know about it until it was too late. The second issue was a seal problem not VRO. Signs were there to let me know there was a problem but I didn't act quick enough.

Best way to tell if you have a problem when you pull a plug isn't the color of the plug, it's if you have aluminum particles on the plug. Ask me how I know, lol.

 

Spike

[Chas0218]

The manual says to never pump the oil bulb. That bulb only exists to prime the line should you disconnect it.Pumping while connected can hurt the VRO pump. So don't do it.

As for the plugs it wouldn't matter what color they were. The Pump on those isn't adjustable so you get what you get from the pump. Back in the day a lot of guys were just disconnecting the pumps and mixing their fuel with oil the old fashoned way. My first engine problem was due to using cheap oil. not the VRO. That issue is well documented around that time frame, I just didn't know about it until it was too late. The second issue was a seal problem not VRO. Signs were there to let me know there was a problem but I didn't act quick enough.

Best way to tell if you have a problem when you pull a plug isn't the color of the plug, it's if you have aluminum particles on the plug. Ask me how I know, lol.

 

Spike

 

 

I just gave him the plug color so if he had one that was different he would know why.  Lots of people didn't trust those VRO pumps but I have never had an issue (knock on wood) and the Merc injection pumps were far worse failure wise. Ya aluminum is a definite bad sign and you likely have a hole in your piston. lol

[IUP30]

OK guys - update and I think I've gotten it all worked out.  I believe it was a fuel issue the whole time since I found that pinched line.  Replaced all the fuel line on Friday except for anti-siphon valve and checked it all over.  Ball primed right and stayed hard.  Tried to change the fuel/water filter and it wouldn't budge!  Had a friend come over with a filter wrench and even then, we had to put some serious torque on this thing to get it off of there.  Probably wasn't changed for years... anyway, got a new one in after a little work and all seems good.  Also put some Sea Foam in the tank to help clean out some of the other junk.

 

Rolled the boat into the driveway, hooked the clamps up to it and fired her up.  Well, it started the best it's ever started for me since I've owned the boat.  Let it run and idle for 10 minutes and no alarms or issues.  Took the boat out Saturday for some walleye.  Started right up at the ramp, idled well and motored to the spot just fine with no alarms (granted it wasn't a long run but a few miles).

 

So - I think I got the problem figured out and resolved.  Going to keep and eye on it and replace impeller next if I get any kind of additional alarms going on.  Thanks for everyone's help and suggestions - really appreciate it!

[Chas0218]

Good to see you got her all figured out, every boat has its quirks just have to figure them out and keep an eye on them. 

 

On a side note, over the weekend I used the Dunk's De-Carbon method on the old Johnson 150 and you should have seen the junk that came out of her.  I also sprayed her with SeaFoam's Deep Creep down in the cylinders and in the intake as she was running. That seemed to really help.  Starting is now a breeze and idles great.