Copper handline advice

[Lively1]

I found a copper handline in the shed at my place on Keuka. Since I couldn't catch anything jigging, I decided to give it a shot. First morning, paid out the line with about 8 feet of mono and silver Sutton spoon on the end. Rowed across the lake and back.. finally when I pulled it back in, found a cluster of zebra mussels and leaves on the spoon hooks. 

 

Next morning, changed from a spoon to a white flatfish, think it would be less likely to snag bottom.. Nope.. same result.

 

The line isn't marked so I don't know how much I had in the water, but I don't think it was much more than the depth of the lake - maybe 100-120 feet.. I fished from about 85 FOW on one side to the same on the other, then turned around.

 

I did mark a few fish on my finder, but very few on bottom actually. More around 60' (thermocline?).. But really hard to know what depth I'm fishing at with that rig. 

 

Plus I was rowing and just let the copper hang over the side.. so it was changing depth depending on whether I was rowing faster or slower..

 

There was a good breeze one morning.. would that rig work just paying it out and drifting down the lake? Seems like it should work.

 

I do have a trolling motor I could use to provide a constant speed, and let me jig the line a little. But thinking how did they do it in the old days when all they had was oars?

 

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[lily]

In the old days there we're no zebra mussels to contend with. Best thing now is to try not to let the spoon drag on the bottom. You feel the bump of bottom bring the lie up a touch. When. I used to troll with out line counter reels I figured from the middle of my body to full arm.extension was aprox 3 ft. So I would pan the line out in 3 foot increments. The days of dragging bottom with a spoon are gone because of the zebra mussels. It doesn't take long to have hooked a whole mess of them.

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[CaptSpike]

First off let me say we typically yank copper line in NH. I have found that copper sinks like a rock on a turn which is likely where you collected your debris. We troll .5-.8mph and let enough line out to just tic bottom with the lure while Yanking (jigging, jerking) the line. As depth changes you will need to let out more line or bring line in. This is where it gets tricky and frustrating for most. We use heavy leader material (25 lb) because you are in contact with the bottom. This method is deadly for lake trout. I have been meaning to put up a video explaining the technique but never got around to it. Maybe next trip out (if the wind cooperates) I will.Im sure out there you don't need to tic bottom and can likely be successful at depths where the bait is. You probably just need to add the jigging action to the lure.

 

Spike

[lily]

I also would figure your line depth to be approx 3 to 1 depending on speed

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[apb]

First of all does your sutton have a fixed hook? When pulling copper it is important to bounce the bottom using a spoon with a fixed hook. Yes, every once in awhile you will get zebras or other trash but not that often. When the spoon hits the bottom it makes "a cloud of dust" if you will. This simulation drives lakers crazy. It takes more copper than you think it should so as far as how much wire, Just pull it every once in awhile while letting it out. You will feel the taps when you have hit the bottom. Just like anything else it takes a little time but when you feel that first big laker slam that wire you will understand why refuse to put the victrolas in retirement!!!

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[Sk8man]

In addition to the above points let's return to some basics. Keuka Lake in most parts has a primarily muck or soft bottom. This seasons storms and high water conditions have pushed a lot of leaves and debris into the lake which have probably mostly ended up on the bottom. Fishing with copper wire in the conventional ways it quite reliant on being able to discriminate bottom characteristics to be successful (that is soft bottom areas from cobble and rocks etc.). Frequently lakers hang out on or near bottom feeding on small bottom oriented food sources like fresh water sculpin, smelt, alewives, and even crustaceans (e.g. crayfish) and sometimes appear to be "resting" down there in the depths. Most copper line ( not copper rig setups on rods) methods try to get the lure such as a Twin Minnow, Pfleuger 4 or 5 or "look alikes" like the Ace spoon in both sizes, Barracuda spoons, or other heavy spoons as close to or on the bottom as possible. These spoons are specifically designed with the large hard sturdy hook placed in an upward position so that they can avoid hanging up on bottom (most of the time ) Even the flutter spoons designed specifically for this type of fishing are with the upward facing hook. If you are dragging copper at uneven speeds you will be prone to hanging up on bottom....too fast and you will spend much of the time in unproductive areas, too slow and you will hang up or snag material off the bottom. This scenario is probably what you are encountering. Try using a heavier spoon such as the Pfleuger or Ace (Fishy Business over near the State Park on Pepper Road has a few of them) and use your trolling motor to provide the right speed. You will know this speed when you feel the spoon "tick, tick ticking" the bottom and you keep taking up or letting out wire in light of what you are feeling and with changes in depth. Do not use a leader tie the spoon directly to the copper wire with sort of a loop in it to allow movement but no swivel...this will allow you to feel the spoon and bottom better. The flutter spoon approach is a little different - here you can use a strong swivel on the copper wire and then use a 4 to 8 oz bell sinker on it and then a 10 or 12 ft. 20 lb mono leader with a barrel swivel spliced in about 4 ft from the spoon. tie the spoon directly to the leader. The reason you use 20 lb test is so that if you snag bottom it will break before (and instead of the wire). Slow trolling is essential to guide your wire along the bottom properly.

 

Here are pics of the Sutton flutter type copper spoons (compartment on right side of tackle box) and 2 of the Pfleuger spoons for an idea:

Edited July 7, 2014 by Sk8man

[Frogger]

_{Yea, we Northenders call it Jerking wire lol.....} 

 

_{This is a great topic with not a lot of written material on the how to do it.  Theres been some really good points and ill add with what apb mentioned, a lott of it is going to be trial and error and the "feel" that you gain while learning it wil become so valuable over time its crazey.  As a matter of fact when you have your first fish on especially if its a good one, youll think you snagged bottom.  There is also a book by Earl Holdren out there that speaks about copper as well.  Cant remember the name of it but its a good one.  Someone on here wil know what im refering to as well as copper experts out there.  Heres my tips,}

 

_{1.  Pick the style your going to do and stay with that technique while your trolling, meaning dont expect to pull copper and run down riggers with NK spoons to catch rainbows.  Your speed, as Capt Spike mentioned is slow.}

 

_{A.  If your going to use a Pleuger type ( hook is permanently attached to the spoon) tie copper directly to ring of spoon.  No monafiliment.  Troll at a consistant depth meaning dont go over shoals or deep areas, try and stay at a depth where the bottom stays the same depth so that there isnt a confusion of you in contact with bottom.  Always remember, no bottom, no fish.  Let it out slowly at first so it doesnt loop onto itself while you let it out.  As mentioned once you let out some, jerk it a few times to see if you are touching bottom, if not keep letting it out,  once you hit bottom, you will need to constantly jerk it off bottom some will double jerk it with the motion.  Your trying to imitiate a sculpin or baitfish going from stone to stone on the bottom.  Dont try this frist out deep.  Like say 100 feet,  It wil be too hard to know if your on bottom.  Try it at around 40 - 50 ft or so.  There should still be fish there.  Once you get the hang of it you can let more out and run deeper.  I know guys that can jerk in 100-120 but it takes a lot of copper, good victrola reel to be able to get there.}

 

_{3. If your going to use a twin Minnow or Flat Fish, youll need a bead chain tied to the copper and a 30-36 inch 30lb monafilament to the eye of the lure.  No snap.  Troll at a consistant depth meaning dont go over shoals or deep areas, try and stay at a depth where the bottom stays the same depth so that there isnt a confusion of you in contact with bottom.  Always remember, no bottom, no fish.  Let it out slowly at first so it doesnt loop onto itself while you let it out.  As mentioned once you let out some, jerk it a few times to see if you are touching bottom, if not keep letting it out,  once you hit bottom, hold on to it so that you feel the lure skipping across the rocks / bottom.  You can jerk it every once in a while but I like to keep it steady until a fish hits.  Once bottom goes away youll either have to let more out or check it for mussels or weeds.  Once you get the hang of it, youll know when the action is messed up from a tiny shell or mussell.}

 

_{Also, as mentioned carefull on your turns, the copper sinks when you turn, also dont kink it, bad mojo.  and dont stop pulling in the fish, always keep the line tight if at all possible, unless you have that monster on, with that im going to say good luck as I cant give you that bit of info of what your in for lol.  Good luck.}

[Sk8man]

You can tell Mike has done this a few times.....probably burned into his memory bank as if by laser   Here is a pic of the book he is talking about....hard to find now but maybe Ebay or even your local library could get it on Interlibrary Loan

[Frogger]

Sorry for the font, Ill tell you though you can forget my post cause Les's is right on the mark, by the way Les, let me know if you need help getting those two babys wet, I can watch them for you for a couple of weeks.........

[Sea-IV]

Everything that has been said I spot on. I jerk copper on Seneca every time I am there. Usually no deeper than 100' with about 300' of copper out. I always use a Sutton 35 fixed in chrome or brass. The important part is the cadence of jerking wire, everyone I know that does this has a different routine. My uncle actually uses a keel weight at his leader where as I don't, both methods catch Lakers. Also keep in mind that 3:1 ration for the depth your fishing. When to jerk the wire you will feel the spoon slap the both and 9 out of 10 times the Lakers will grab it in the fall back. Best advice is to figure out you own method but you can't use trebles and let it drag. If you get snagged you could lose everything or tear a muscle when you try to jerk it free. Good luck

[Sk8man]

We just said about the same thing Mike and you are welcome to babysit the Pfleuger's anytime..... I trust ya   You'd know how to put them to best use them for sure   I also have a couple extra ACE spoons if you ever need them.

[blueghost1]

" all the above. Been pulling wire with dad for 30 yrs now.  I may also add my dad and I added a piece of stainless wire on the hook eye of the ace and great lakes spoons, similar to the weed guard on a Johnson silver minnow. This greatly reduced bottom snags , saves a lot of lures and really minimizes the dreaded near  finger removing snags   been there too many times.

[Great Lakes Lure Maker]

First, No need for me to add to what has already been said here, accept to say it is all excellent advise. 

 

In addition to lure selections, GLL makes a GL#4 which is a copy of the pflueger, with the 05 hook. In addition,We also make fixed hook spoons for copper, #35, #7, and the New Silver Soldier. I will try to post some pics, as soon as I find my cord for my phone/computer. Lost it among the luggage from this weekends fishing trip. 

 

The fella who made our GL #4 dies has the dies to make exact copies of the pflueger, harness and all. We've considered purchasing it, but would render our GL #4 useless. Never know though. If there was enough interest, we would probably buy the dies. Purchasing dies of the quality we get made is very expensive. Just to produce one lure requires 4 separate dies. Blank, pierce,logo, form, and can cost thousands to purchase. So investing in another lure, when were already making one that works, is a big decision to make. I must say, there is more interest in pulling copper now than I would have guessed, so that optimistic.  Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

 

Jason

[Lively1]

Thanks for all the great advice! The spoon I tried had a treble hook, but I also found a couple with fixed hooks, also a very heavy sinker (6-8 oz).

 

Since the lake drops to 100 feet almost immediately I'll have to learn at that depth, but the good news is the bottom is quite uniform in my part of the lake. Just a few spots that are 10-20 feet deeper than others.

 

Game plan for next time:

- use a single fixed hook spoon

- measure and mark the wire ahead of time so I know how much is paid out

- aim for 300 feet of wire out to get to bottom in 100'

- use trolling motor on low speed

- jerk/jig the wire

 

My rig is similar to this (photo is not my actual rig):

 

Eventually would like to figure out how to do this without the motor.. maybe motoring upwind a mile or so and then drifting back?  Anyone do it this way?

[Sea-IV]

Drifting would be to slow. I usually am about 1.8-2 mph when I am pulling wire and the spoons are maybe an ounce or more. If you really get into it I would invest in an A&S reel. Saves the arms when pulling wire in.

[Frogger]

Lively,

 

anything can be done.  Like you said the ole timers use to do it the simple way but the trouble with oaring is you need someone to keep the copper moving (jerking).  If it were me, and what you have currently to use, I would use the twin minnow / flat fish method so that you can hold on to it while your moving the boat along.  It will also help you get down farther in depths as you move along.  Youll have to keep a good pace though.  Generally a tad faster with the twins than with Pluegar types but not that much.  By the way, I didnt mention, dont try and roll the copper up when you get a fish on that reel.  Its meant really to only hold it.  Just pull in the copper and lay it on the floor without making too much of a mess.  Once you get the fish off just put the copper back out.  Once your done you can wind it back on the reel.

 

Jason, Les has agreed to pay for all of the cost of the dies for the matching Pfleuger sets and named me as one of the testers to see how they roll.  He may disagree but hes really saying yes he supports it.......

[Dick]

Where on keuka are you? This is a great way of fishing! I just got my finger healed from a big laker! Great for jack perch, and big smallies

Ps my rig looks like that exept the lure. look up my posts

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Edited July 7, 2014 by Dick

[Great Lakes Lure Maker]

Lively,

 

anything can be done.  Like you said the ole timers use to do it the simple way but the trouble with oaring is you need someone to keep the copper moving (jerking).  If it were me, and what you have currently to use, I would use the twin minnow / flat fish method so that you can hold on to it while your moving the boat along.  It will also help you get down farther in depths as you move along.  Youll have to keep a good pace though.  Generally a tad faster with the twins than with Pluegar types but not that much.  By the way, I didnt mention, dont try and roll the copper up when you get a fish on that reel.  Its meant really to only hold it.  Just pull in the copper and lay it on the floor without making too much of a mess.  Once you get the fish off just put the copper back out.  Once your done you can wind it back on the reel.

 

Jason, Les has agreed to pay for all of the cost of the dies for the matching Pfleuger sets and named me as one of the testers to see how they roll.  He may disagree but hes really saying yes he supports it...

Interesting! We could work with that. How generous of him to offer! 

[Sk8man]

  You guys are just too kind.....with my $$$$ especially. I'll have to take bottles back to the redemption center just to pay for my addiction (and friends)

[Great Lakes Lure Maker]

I got a big van if you need help with those bottles, sounds like you got a bunch! 

[blueghost1]

If it were me and using a row boat, I would loop the wire around the oar to get the jigging action, then every 8-10 rows stop for a few seconds. Laugh but it will work. Jason's great lakes #4's on wire have put hundreds of nice lakers in the boat for us on Seneca and Canandaigua    . My dads "bucket list" includes catching a king on wire. I said  wont slow down enough on Lake O for him to do that. Said I am not interested in waiting in the ED while he gets fingers stitched back on

[Sea-IV]

Hah my father wants to do the same for Lakers on Ontario except he wants to pulls stainless with flashers like he does at Seneca. I refuse to let him try especially when I have had multiple 20# plus Lakers destroy some of my best rods like they were toothpicks. Don't even want to think about somebodys fingers.

[Great Lakes Lure Maker]

Here are some pics of the lures we have to offer. As you can see, we have a small variety of fixed hook lures, as well as the #4. They are offered as plain, a variety of colors, and custom colors as well.

[Sk8man]

The first few years of copper pulling I did it without anything to protect my fingers but a nice snag in Melons Cove convinced me that I needed finger protection   From then on it has been a trip to Tractor Supply or place like that to buy outdoor leather gloves. You cut the fingers off the gloves and just wear two fingers at a time (one of them on the thumb if you're fond of keeping it) on the hand holding the wire....I've been very thankful a bunch of times

Edited July 8, 2014 by Sk8man

[mottman32]

Where can I buy some Great Lake spoons?

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