Kings...what's up this year?

[bandrus1]

we are talking about 1 year class here.. this hasnt been shown to be a reoccurring thing... the king fishing last few years has been incredible 

[Rich D]

What about the 2010 year??? The hatchery got its fish that year, the only thing possible was the wild fish that spawned early. That was the year the SR had the flood, so any early natural spawning might have washed away those eggs. But after it receded, there was kings everywhere spawning. We are not seeing the wild matures this year, and also very very few of our 2 1/2 year fish. So I am curious to see what you have to say about that year.

Capt Rich

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[bandrus1]

maybe that flood really washed away a lot of the gravely areas that year 

[King Davy]

I just want to clear one thing up. And it's a fact not an opinion. While many brown trout and steelhead are "naturally" hatched into the system every fall from the lake migrations, there has never been a survival rate for those species that would have a measurable impact on improving or sustaining the fishing. Simply because those species must "summer over" in their natel tribs and on the south shore there aren't many if any that can sustain those fish through a full summer in the YOY stage. In the case of wild steelhead many stay over a year in a river system

 

The only factor Brown trout and Steelhead have on multiple returns to a river system and be available to lake trollers year after year besides annual stocking is anglers choosing not to harvest them. (Don't want to get into a debate on mortality of fish caught over and over). Bottom line a fish released at least has a chance to survive. Fish in coolers never swim again. Purely the anglers choice and your license gives you all the right in the world to make that choice.

 

However, the King Salmon is the one species that has the opportunity to spawn, and it's off spring survive and return to the lake as they are hatched in the early spring of the year after eggs deposited the previous fall, and normally leave the tribs that same May June of hatching attempting to get to open water before river systems water temps become lethal....IN ALMOST every stream on both the North and South shore.

 

I step around 1000's of newly hatched king salmon in all my steelhead haunts in March and April from tiny little trickles to big rivers. Not going to debate how many survive cause there is no way to know at the moment. BUT...Wild King Salmon have a much greater chance in our South shore systems to replenish the open water stocks then any other species of Salmonids.

 

So I'll just pitch this as rational thought. In a down year, difficult year that we are having this year, the angling community can take notice of that, and while they may enjoy catching other species, one might not want to harvest their limit to truly not impact other species besides the one in trouble...(if that's the case) The ball's in our court now...not the DEC. Yeah if there was a lost year class they'll know in a very short time and they'll study it and it will be debated....and all of that, but we all can have an impact NOW...on a changing and possible difficult situation, until we know for sure what's going on....to keep other species from also being impacted just because the targets changed for what might be an anomaly here in 2014 before all the facts are known.

Edited August 13, 2014 by King Davy

[Tall Tails]

What about the 2010 year??? The hatchery got its fish that year, the only thing possible was the wild fish that spawned early. That was the year the SR had the flood, so any early natural spawning might have washed away those eggs. But after it receded, there was kings everywhere spawning. We are not seeing the wild matures this year, and also very very few of our 2 1/2 year fish. So I am curious to see what you have to say about that year.

Capt Rich

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United mobile app

Rich I am seeing the opposite.  Almost every mature has been wild and not stocked.  This mature class is still clipped.  I think I can count on 2 hands the number of stocked matures I have caught.  Also I have been checked by DEC 3 times with catches of kings and only 3 fish in those 28 have been stocked....Something is up. 

[skipper19]

Well I know the fishing pressures are down this season and getting less as the news goes on. There have been no parking issues at ramps I have visited at any day. I know some charter businesses that are way down and at least one captain who is a good friend that spoke of possibly canceling his few remaining trips this season due to lack of fish and the close combating for the narrow band of water that retains browns and lakers. I know a lot of people mostly locals to the western basin who have cut back on fishing the lake this year due to long slow boat rides. So my theory is there has already been an adjustment in pressure and definitely no worries as to large numbers of anglers in boats causing as much mortality of fish reeled in and released over again.

There goes the cycle! It's like fishing for trout in the western ADK s. Used to do it a long time ago along with lots of others, now it's to practice my fly casting skills in peace and quiet but it doesn't cost as much as lake O trolling even though there is little chance of catching anything. My boat has been parked since July 27th. That was after 4 days of fishing straight through. One day for the Sandy Creek Shoot out and a go big or go home king attitude 6 rod king program 15 mile troll and we went home...stayed there. No pressure from me and I was off work 13 miles from Port of Point Breeze.

That's just me but the ramps show many others out of the loop as well.

Mark

Cent frum my notso smart fone

[Gill-T]

Same. Last time out on my boat was first week in June!  The honey-do list seems more important when the fishing is off for Kings.  If the state has ever had a whiff of wanting to stop King stocking for money reasons the ROI should be checked comparing sales tax revenues from years previous against this year.  Think of all the gas stations, mini-marts, Tim Hortons, thruway fares, launch fares, charter business, tackle business etc. etc.  Tackle sales down.....house paint sales up!  Kings drive the Lake O business.  Maybe they should be pushing the Atlantics out of the fish collecting wier and servicing the Kings!

[Rich D]

Rich I am seeing the opposite. Almost every mature has been wild and not stocked. This mature class is still clipped. I think I can count on 2 hands the number of stocked matures I have caught. Also I have been checked by DEC 3 times with catches of kings and only 3 fish in those 28 have been stocked....Something is up.

Brian,

I was saying that poss we are missing the early wilds due to that. In the majority of the mature pics that I have seen they have been clipped. Matures to me being 25lbs plus, those are our 4 year olds. 20lbs and less will be non clipped and no chip unless pen fish, going by the info DEC has given us. The year class we will see a shortage of would be the 2 1/2 year olds, fall of 2012. I agree something is up, doubt we will ever know what actually happened this year. I can not find the numbers for stocked fish for spring of 2012 online, if anyone has them I would like to see what it was.

Rich

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[Tall Tails]

Gotcha Rich.  I call all 3 year olds mature as well.  I dont think we get a whole lot of 4yr olds anymore.  Most mature and run at 3 it seems.  Pretty much anything over 14lbs is probably a "Mature" this year with there slower metabolism over the winter and spring.

[King Davy]

Ohhh....Cheap shot Gill.... thought you were a science guy (I'm sure you were just kidding). They are capturing a handful of fish to experiment with. It's a specific device to capture and not harm those fish so they can truck them back to Cornell.

 

The raceway is wide open for all the kings in the world to swim up to the gate. ....Let's focus on what happens this fall. No hiding spawning King Salmon...if they are there...or not. I'm always asking why...there are many very famous in land trib systems in the NE that for what ever reason are fishing WAY below their normal stature. Insect hatches were late, or didn't come at all. Plenty of water, but success rates bottoming out. Usually not (1) thing that changes an environment and in this case the success of finding and catching fish, but I'm always interested if there is a common dinominator that affects multiple situations like this. 

 

Just like open water fishing, you start to trend the conditions to the level of success. I said earlier, I've seen this poor fishing situation before in a crazy weather pattern and brutal cold winter. And that fall you could walk across the backs of the salmon in the rivers and not get your feet wet. WHERE THE HECK WERE THEY????

 

I happened to share a few cocktails with the crew of the RV Kaho a few weeks ago. They've been dragging the bototm for all kinds of bio mass studies.... they didn't have any mature salmon carcasses in their nets, plenty of deep water sculpin which continues to show a population growth rate. I won't  get into their bait fish findings....they'll publish them this fall or winter.

 

So who knows.....but the good news we are all going to find out in just a short time.  

[Gill-T]

Ohhh....Cheap shot Gill.... thought you were a science guy (I'm sure you were just kidding).  

 

Yes I am kidding (sort of)  I would like them to strip only late October and November-run fish to make the run later when water temps are better.  I like the science stuff but I have a healthy dose of common sense.  I never liked the idea of the nose tagging/ fin clipping machine.  Ask a 5 year old if it would be a good idea to shove something into the nose of a fish, then clip off a fin before letting baby salmon go.  The resource is too valuable to be jerking around.  Glad the program is done. 

 

I look forward to the LOLA survey results as well.  Interesting stuff happening to the food chain.  Good reason to give lake managers more flexibility to determine stocking figures on a year-to-year basis to adapt to changing environment.

[Tall Tails]

These trout unlimited guys like KIng Davy here are a real hoot!!  I had some DEC folks out on the water the other day and I brought this topic up.  They giggled when I read them snipits of this thread...  I can assure you the KING SALMON is not going anywhere on the NY side of the lake. They are the only predatory fish that can control the alewive.  And lets not even talk about the revenue generation. It is unfortunate the political machine is churning in Canada and applying so much pressure to an Atlantic salmon stocking venture that would never show any merit or success. 

 

I brought up later fall egg stripping.  It is an egg viablity issue as much as a water temp issue. 54 to 58 degrees has historically been the best temp to take eggs at for the Hatchery.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Tall Tails

[bandrus1]

. It is unfortunate the liberal machine is churning in Canada and applying so much pressure to an Atlantic salmon stocking venture 

 

 

 

 

oh brother

[Tall Tails]

oh brother

 

I changed it for you bandrus1!

[Patriot]

I just want to clear one thing up. And it's a fact not an opinion. While many brown trout and steelhead are "naturally" hatched into the system every fall from the lake migrations, there has never been a survival rate for those species that would have a measurable impact on improving or sustaining the fishing. Simply because those species must "summer over" in their natel tribs and on the south shore there aren't many if any that can sustain those fish through a full summer in the YOY stage. In the case of wild steelhead many stay over a year in a river system

 

The only factor Brown trout and Steelhead have on multiple returns to a river system and be available to lake trollers year after year besides annual stocking is anglers choosing not to harvest them. (Don't want to get into a debate on mortality of fish caught over and over). Bottom line a fish released at least has a chance to survive. Fish in coolers never swim again. Purely the anglers choice and your license gives you all the right in the world to make that choice.

 

However, the King Salmon is the one species that has the opportunity to spawn, and it's off spring survive and return to the lake as they are hatched in the early spring of the year after eggs deposited the previous fall, and normally leave the tribs that same May June of hatching attempting to get to open water before river systems water temps become lethal....IN ALMOST every stream on both the North and South shore.

 

I step around 1000's of newly hatched king salmon in all my steelhead haunts in March and April from tiny little trickles to big rivers. Not going to debate how many survive cause there is no way to know at the moment. BUT...Wild King Salmon have a much greater chance in our South shore systems to replenish the open water stocks then any other species of Salmonids.

 

So I'll just pitch this as rational thought. In a down year, difficult year that we are having this year, the angling community can take notice of that, and while they may enjoy catching other species, one might not want to harvest their limit to truly not impact other species besides the one in trouble...(if that's the case) The ball's in our court now...not the DEC. Yeah if there was a lost year class they'll know in a very short time and they'll study it and it will be debated....and all of that, but we all can have an impact NOW...on a changing and possible difficult situation, until we know for sure what's going on....to keep other species from also being impacted just because the targets changed for what might be an anomaly here in 2014 before all the facts are known.

I agree and also A PICTURE IS WORTH A 1,000 MORE FISH. Catch the fish, take a picture to show "you're the great white hunter", then let it go. Yea I know. "But it cost me a lot of money to get to catch that fish". If you didn't have the EXTRA cash, you wouldn't be here to catch it.

[bandrus1]

thanks lol

[tove12345]

Just check out the pictures of the south shore charter trip 8/7-8/10.If it wasn't so sad, it would almost be funny. Bandrus has it exactly right.One species is down,so lets decimate the next.Great.....lay all those flattails on the deck and push out your chests.Basic math boys!!!!

[bandrus1]

hey im not judging anybody or blaming anybody

[Yankee Troller]

Just check out the pictures of the south shore charter trip 8/7-8/10.If it wasn't so sad, it would almost be funny. Bandrus has it exactly right.One species is down,so lets decimate the next.Great.....lay all those flattails on the deck and push out your chests.Basic math boys!!!!

 

Those farmer boys from Maryland will be enjoying those tasty Steelhead for months to come and won't waste an inch of that meat. It's a put and take fishery. I'd rather see them hit my lures and leave the lake legally then get dragged in backwards with 5 other piercings in them to go on a stringer with most likely an illegal number of trout. If you want to jump on someone, or some group, tackle the out of staters who rape and pillage the streams illegally for 6 months!

 

Lastly, tove12345 thanks for reading my reports and looking at my great pics every week!

Edited August 13, 2014 by Yankee Troller

[tove12345]

Everyone needs to man up and take responsability for what is surely going to effect a lot of people.Charters and recs. need to stop targeting steelhead period!!Treble hooks and jumping steel is not a recipie for catch and release(even if they wanted too).Captains need to educate their trips to the seriousness of the situation to better help the fishing as a whole.Maybe,just maybe they can covince them to try fishing and not just catching for glory shots.

[bandrus1]

Everyone needs to man up and take responsability for what is surely going to effect a lot of people.Charters and recs. need to stop targeting steelhead period!!Treble hooks and jumping steel is not a recipie for catch and release(even if they wanted too).Captains need to educate their trips to the seriousness of the situation to better help the fishing as a whole.Maybe,just maybe they can covince them to try fishing and not just catching for glory shots.

way way overboard... the steelhead fishery on lake Ontario is good and some even argue over populated  

[Yankee Troller]

Everyone needs to man up and take responsability for what is surely going to effect a lot of people.Charters and recs. need to stop targeting steelhead period!!Treble hooks and jumping steel is not a recipie for catch and release(even if they wanted too).Captains need to educate their trips to the seriousness of the situation to better help the fishing as a whole.Maybe,just maybe they can covince them to try fishing and not just catching for glory shots.

Overpopulated is an understatement! Go offshore on the north shore every summer and they are about as annoying as mosquitoes when your trying to target Salmon. Thousands are stocked every year. That's the great thing about stocking and not having to rely on natural reproduction!

Sent from my XT1080 using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[Silver Fox]

While trolling this summer I've caught 2 rainbows with egg hooks in their fins. Just imagine how many more are out there! Snaggers suck

[GAMBLER]

The captains are just trying to survive! A good percentage of captains do this as a job not a hobby. I have no problems with captains targeting a certain species to survive. The trout have been left alone for the previous four seasons for the most part. As for the steelhead, the population is high and only a couple ports are having success fishing them. East of the oak, the steelhead are being left alone.

[King Davy]

That's the funny thing about the Internet...or maybe the Sad thing....guys like Tall Tails taking a shot at me...you don't even know me. Not now, nor have I ever been a member of TU...and I have many reasons for that....biggest being trying to get them to be involved in the LO tribs when we had LOSA. They have lots of resources and money to help this environment...not just inland.

 

Anyway....I only speak from experience which is only worth (1) data point, and look at the collected data that has been available ...for 30 years. Some on here will chime in that the numbers are wrong etc. But Lake Ontario has been the biggest baddest top notch open water and trib fishery over any other of it's kind for those 30 years compared to all others. Consistant and most of it (consistant in it's excellence of fishing success) has been it's moniker. So the data that the DEC and Feds use to manage this thing must be good enough to continue it's excellence. Maybe not perfect...but adequate.

 

Most of the posts on here have lots of Merritt simply because it's got people thinking about ...what's going on. That's a good thing because stakeholders are at the heart of it's future. Many offering ideas, insight, and relating their experience. Interesting thing is the full gamut...some are mostly catching wild fish, some only stocked fish....In the end it's good to put all these diverse experiences on the tabel....just to understand how unpredictable this environment is and then understand how hard it is to manage it.

 

On the thoughts around taking eggs later. The hatchery won't take eggs until the river water is in that optimal temp. Some years that hasn't happened until after Columbus day. Nov? ....not too many healthy fish around in Nov. I would never want to risk waiting too long.

 

Gill I respectively disagree. Clipping fish has been going on since Seth Green's fish culturing days. It in it's purest form and most of all affordable format is still a Globally accepted practice to try and understand year classes, stocking sites (pens etc) to measure returns, and in the latest case I think it's important to try and figure out what the impact is of wild salmon mixing in with the stocked numbers.

 

This June during a womens fly fishing two day seminar, we guided two USGS biologists, Among a combination of rainbows, brown trout these young ladies, were catching Atlantic Salmon mostly 1.5 to 2 year olds (which are still only 8 to 12 inch fish), and there was a combination of clipped and wire tagged fish. The differece was DEC ADK hatchery fish, Tunison USGS fish, and "Wild Fish" obvisouly no clips no tags....I was interesting these two young scientists when upon catching a fish spent time deciphering origins,  and conditions of each and every one. Their thurst for knowledge of "their babies" was eye opening. We have a bunch of young highly intelligent scientists working on this fishery. I'm all for getting them as much data as possible.  

Edited August 13, 2014 by King Davy