Kings--what should be done

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Ok, this is my opinion based on "living" this fishery since 1976. I know there are astute, caring fisheries people who check out this forum. Hopefully this gets read. 

 

1) NYSDEC and OMNR need to have the same concern for the Chinook as they do for Lake Trout and Atlantics. Yes, these are noble fish and the restoration effort is noble, but without an adequate Chinook population those efforts are just running on a treadmill. Why would I say this? Repeatedly in recent years there have been problems with Chinook eggs eyeing up, water supplies, and some years even having enough get to the raceways. Personally, and as a member of the Niagara fishery advisory board, I have offered help and/help raising money to correct these issues. The help was denied. We have heard that some years recently the "product"(fingerling Kings) was sub par due to experimenting with cheaper food, or again, water supply issues. We also heard that clipping the Kings was stressing them affecting survival/and or growth.  

The King program needs to get back to being the priority, and all the other stuff falls into place.

 

2) At least a 30 % increase in stocking numbers of fingerling Kings(Chinook). The cut that took place in the early 90's was completely unwarranted, and I believe was the beginning of the change in theme for this fishery. The uptick we saw in the late 90's through 2012 was primarily due to the SR baseflows and the efforts of the volunteers in Ontario province. Some biologists believe that there is a direct correlation between Lake trout numbers and Chinook fingerling survival. This has to due with predation. On the subject of predation, a 30 % increase would not even offset the amount of fingerlings we are losing to warmwater predators, which are in much higher numbers than what they even were in the early 90's. To top off this point, the educated angling pressure on Chinooks is at an all time high, and no doubt leaves less Chinooks out there to control alewives.

3) The NYDEC should intervene and protect the publics natural resources when it come to these water releases. I can tell you one of the reasons the eggs arent eyeing up is because these artificial surges of water suck mature Chinnys upriver(SR). Many perish due to the Summer temps, but others end up in the raceways roasting and then ultimately wasting the hatchery staffs time when they strip the "bad eggs". The mature Chinook is too valuable to the system, anglers, and the economy to be wasted due to a whitewater race, one that could be held earlier when it wouldnt impact as many Chinook. 

4) Higher percentage of stocked Chinooks should be penned. Its just common sense that the pen fish are less prone to becoming a dogfishes dinner(Olcott) (pick your harbor and its predator) I once saw a rock bass caught in Olcott harbor on direct stock day. It coughed up 11 fingerling Chinook. This was in the early 90's, imagine how many are being eaten today. The DEC released from its clipping study that the penfish return to the fishery at a rate of 2:1. Yes, DOUBLE. Isn't that enough? Lets pen them all. A past DEC hatchery manager once said that stocking Chinook at smaller than 130/lb is basically stocking "fish food." With the water temp/supply problems in recent yrs, most of the direct stocked Chinooks have been this small.

5) Continue to educate anglers and DEC truck drivers as to temperature tolerences. A document was created by former DEC region 8 biologist Carl Widmer in the 90's that stated that stocking fingerling Chinook at a 10+/- difference was lethal due to shock. We can't afford to have complete stockings be "paper figures". This is another reason why all Chinook should be penned, the accountability is much greater. Direct stock tend to be "outta sight, outta mind."  

6) Ultimate care should be given to 1 yr old "skipper" Kings when caught. There are still people out there who are trying to shake them off violently or rip them off by yanking. These are the survivors! They will be big Kings! They grow about 700% from their 1st to 2nd year. We catch many adult Salmon every year with healed over deformed jaws. When released with care-they make it! Of course, if one is gill hooked and bleeding profusely then it should be utilized and count towrds your creel. Anything other than that is unethical.

In closing, I'm starting to hear and see alot of finger pointing amongst the angling community. It should never come down to that. The documentation is there, when the Chinnys are there, the lake fleet targets them almost exclusively. The DEC records show this clearly. This year the trout take will be way up. They are great fish but facts are the facts. Stream guys can say if the lake guys didnt harvest fish, we'd have more. Lake guys can say, if sections of viable streams were closed to fishing, we'd have lots more natural repro of Chinooks. If there was no possession of Brown trout, 18 mile creek wouldnt get stripped of its entire run of Brownies. It goes round and round. In the end, and as always, the Chinook Salmon is the answer. For those that continually bring up the risk of collapsing the bait, I say the biggest risk is going into another winter with the bait population so ridiculously high it could collapse due to UNDER predation. Instead of having enough food for a stable population of alewives, we may be looking at starving them out. If this was a Whitetail deer population, the DEC would be calling for an emergency hunt. 

  

[dvdegeorge]

Stop making so much sense!

[Rich D]

Well said Vince, spot on!!!! The problem we will have is the fact it will take a few years for the DEC and Canada officials to come to the conclusion of stocking for kings, or cohos for that matter. I just hope it's not to late for the bait population!!!

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[GAMBLER]

I say can the lake trout increase and increase a more controllable species in increments over four year periods. See how the bait and kings react to the increases. I believe stocking 300,000 more laker that can live up to 30 years is being a little on the careless side.

[bandrus1]

Why is there such a knee jerk reaction? The last 3 years the runs on the rivers have been nuts. Like I can never remember.

 

One bad year class doesnt mean the whole system is broken 

[Sk8man]

Out of all the things I have seen and heard about this topic Vince's comments are the most enlightening. Public pressure from focused groups can sometimes bring about very effective solutions to problems from bureaucrasies but they need "prodding" We all need to pull together on this issue and try to bring some effective pressure to bear with the hope that it will not be too late. Like Vince I've been fishing for the salmon in the lake since 1975 and although there have been some downs leading up to the 80's and 90's phenomenal fishing for kings the present situation seems quite different and the massive presence of bait all over the lake is different than those points too.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Sk8man

[chucknmel]

Well said Vince. Bandrus were you around back in the 80's or early 90's to see what a real run was like.Those runs were nuts not what we have had the last few years.

[bandrus1]

Well said Vince. Bandrus were you around back in the 80's or early 90's to see what a real run was like.Those runs were nuts not what we have had the last few years.

sounds like:

 

should have been here yesterday.

[GAMBLER]

Why is there such a knee jerk reaction? The last 3 years the runs on the rivers have been nuts. Like I can never remember.

One bad year class doesnt mean the whole system is broken

The bait population is growing fast. The past two season I have seen a ton of bait compared to years past. I can't remember the last time we saw tons of bait schools with NO fish on them. The past two seasons that is becoming the norm. Last August we trolled from 120' out to 550' off of sandy and marked bait the entire way in and out. This spring, inside of 200' of water off of sandy it was solid bait. Take a look at Yankee trollers post from the Canadian tourney he fished. He posted pics of the fish finder. Miles of bait! Is the state of the lake meeting info on the bait population really accurate? I'm beginning to think it is not! Edited August 15, 2014 by GAMBLER

[chucknmel]

it may sound like that but if you ask any of the elders that fished the rivers back then and still fish them now they would gladly tell you there is no comparison.

[Patriot]

I started fish O in 1992 and it was like casting into a bath tub, fishing was easy. Then came the Zebra mussel, who likes the same food that the bait likes. That's what created the roller coaster ride

[baitrigger]

Hey vince...you didnt get blown off the lake today by any chance? That post contains more info than Im able to process at one time. I've read through three times. It would take an hour just to compose any intelligent resonse. That is a lot to digest. Nice job. LONG LIVE THE KING!!!

[WalleyeLJ]

I loathe board battles, but did you actually read and comprehend anything in the original post? The position and theory are sound. Who knows - maybe he's correct, maybe not. But the post is fair, reasonable and logical. I’ve fished Lake Champlain for the majority of my life, and the lack of consistent attention to sea lampreys and inconsistencies proper stocking numbers have created a fishery that yoyo’s back in forth, and the down periods in game fishing there ties right back to poor, often politically driven or mandated fisheries management decisions.

 

 

 

 

But all you've done is toss a little grenade into the post instead of intelligently joining the discussion. It seems that more than enough people on here, in enough different locations across the lake, have the same general observation that the king fishing is highly abnormal this season. It's not like Capt. Vince suddenly went out of a limb  by himself out of the blue. I love Lakers and Browns, but the reason I fly in each year from NC (and talked my brother-in-law into joining me this year), spending several thousand dollars over much of the last decade is to chase Kings - a fish that's a rare encounter anywhere east of the West Coast & Alaska. It would make sense to make King stocking, and the success of that program a priority.

[Second Nature]

It's a basic principal of a predator vs prey relationship. And though it can be very dynamic it is also very simple. To much prey and not enough predators, prey pops will rise to such a degree, then they collapse and predators follow suit. We see it all through out nature. It's a simple checks and balance situation. If the data says its a 2:1 return of pen raised fished then we should pen more! If it comes down to a money issue, then I for one would pay more for a fishing license to help with costs. If natural reproduction is increasing and helping to supplement our population then we SHOULD be closing off known spawning sections of tribs to fishing, at least to a certain point in the season. No I'm not against river fishing, in fact I love to do it myself, but I personally would give up some prime river fishing to help promote an increase in our target species the KING! The more Mother Nature does on her own the less we have to be responsible for. However in a fishery such as this our responsibility to manage it will never truly end. I have been assisting Tom Allen in Oswegos pen project and though I don't do as much as I'd like or should, I still find a sense of pride in knowing I've helped give back to what I love to do here on the big pond. We don't need more lake trout, or Atlantics we need and want kings! Kings are what keep this fishing industry alive. Kings are what push local fishing communities and parts of their economy. We need more Kings!

[Sk8man]

Too bad things have devolved into this. Especially given the intentions of Vince initially  and then others to present ideas for folks to think about, discuss and offer OPINIONS  as this is a very complex and evidently emotional issue that bears some discussion. DNRoch:scientists base their opinions, and conclusions primarily on data but basic data especially at limited points along the way suffer from having insufficient information and sometimes scientists conclusions formed by limited data yield limited results and sometimes they are actually imprecise and inaccurate. The State of the Lake Meeting contains information that should always be considered as "best guesstimates" based on limited raw data and not necessarily the word of God. Sometimes major findings in science come from areas overlooked by the data collection efforts and sometimes they come from observation and common sense used by non-scientists. Estimating the baitfish population in Lake Ontario may one such very questionable area as well as anyone really having a highly accurate handle on all the variables going on in the lake right now.....including the Fisheries scientists despite their valiant efforts.

[doublett]

It's the predators that hurt . One out of five have had a lamprey on and the cormorants have got to go. Lake trout nearly wiped out the cut throats in Yellowstone lake . Double tt

[baitrigger]

Sometimes the answer is right in front of your nose. History repeats it self over and over. I think you boys are on to something. This is a can of worms, im sure. Why slot limits on lakers. Do we need them. I read elsewhere they are putting in more lakers. Where is this going?

[Legacy]

Many posts have been deleted. Play nice boys or dont play at all!

[GANGGREEN]

I'm kind of an outsider so I don't have the same vested interest that most of you have.  I fished Ontario back in the early 90s and it was a blast.  I consider fishing it again because I have a new boat and I'm starting to have a bit more time to fish as I near retirement and my kids grow up.  So, I'm just going to give an outsider's perspective or play devil's advocate a tiny bit here, and that's not to discount the reasoned comments of the OP or of anyone else, I think your concerns are valid.

 

I will say that in a very general sense, I'm in favor of managing primarily for native species, though I know that the great lakes are completely topsy-turvy because of the unwanted invasive species.  So, in general, I'm OK with the NYDEC managing for lakers or atlantics.  I also know that for many sportsmen, there will never be enough stocked trout, salmon, deer, turkey, etc. etc. and I think that sometimes we have to temper our opinions and desires and recognize that the fishing (or hunting) isn't always going to be easy and that we have to concern ourselves with a healthy environment first and that high populations of game fish or animals are a benefit of that. 

 

Just sayin'.  I'm not sure if people's comments got deleted in this thread but so far I think people are being reasonable.  Before anyone attacks me, I've already made the comment that I'm not as knowledgeable about this fishery as many of you and I recognize that there are many issues.  Perhaps the DEC isn't paying close enough attention but there's also the possibility that they are managing for the resource and that some folks just want more.

[Gator]

I would love to have a fisheries biologist, preferably someone with authoritative power, weigh in on this discussion. Vince's arguments make perfect sense to me. What I don't know are whether there are "other" factors that influence some of these decisions, such as maintaining biodiversity and having a fallback position. I also hope that the powers-that-be at the DEC are wise enough that management practices with suspect returns such as described are being replaced...pen rearing is a step in the right direction. However, I wonder if it's success has masked other potential concerns?

[salmonboy41]

Well said Vince. Bandrus were you around back in the 80's or early 90's to see what a real run was like.Those runs were nuts not what we have had the last few years.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!

First now a days people line up on the piers in Olcott and just a handful of salmon are caught or even seen jumping.  I remember in the 90"s when the water would just boil with kings in the harbor and everyone was catching fish.

 

Second ask any guide that fishes the Niagara river for kings and they will tell you that they work there a** off just to get there clients a couple of kings where 10/15 years ago 15 kings per trip was the norm.

 

Third  I and many others how troll all season see come late August/September on the west the kings disappear off to the east with just a few kings left. Which never used to be the case.

 

I think way needs to be done is this. reopen the Caledonia hatchery for kings, and increase the stocking of kings but focus the increase on the west tribs(this way the Caledonia hatchery can get its fish).  As this would give us a balanced fishery across the lake instead of having all of our eggs in one basket(literally) on the SR. This way if something goes wrong at the SR say a drought year like 2007 there wouldn't be a shortage because the second hatchery would be able to compensate.

[GAMBLER]

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!!

First now a days people line up on the piers in Olcott and just a handful of salmon are caught or even seen jumping.  I remember in the 90"s when the water would just boil with kings in the harbor and everyone was catching fish.

 

Second ask any guide that fishes the Niagara river for kings and they will tell you that they work there A@% off just to get there clients a couple of kings where 10/15 years ago 15 kings per trip was the norm.

 

Third  I and many others how troll all season see come late August/September on the west the kings disappear off to the east with just a few kings left. Which never used to be the case.

 

I think way needs to be done is this. reopen the Caledonia hatchery for kings, and increase the stocking of kings but focus the increase on the west tribs(this way the Caledonia hatchery can get its fish).  As this would give us a balanced fishery across the lake instead of having all of our eggs in one basket(literally) on the SR. This way if something goes wrong at the SR say a drought year like 2007 there wouldn't be a shortage because the second hatchery would be able to compensate.

The Caledonia issue was talked about at the State of the Lake meetings and they will not do it because of VHS disease.  I mentioned Powder Mill but they said it was a private hatchery.  Why not contract out raising Kings at Powder Mill and move the browns they raise to Caledonia?  I would be more than willing to donate time to volunteer to help with the project.  We could also raise $ from West end tournies to support the Hatchery and projects.  The second hatchery issues was talked about to and they did not have many answers.   

[Silver Fox]

Well said Vince. Bandrus were you around back in the 80's or early 90's to see what a real run was like.Those runs were nuts not what we have had the last few years.

Exactly! If you were not around back then to live it, you probably should not comment. Zero comparison between now and then. Porpoising fish around all the pier heads with the chaos of "fish on" all over! Snagging was popular in the creeks and it didn't dent the population. You guys would be scheduling vacation time to fish Sept. Instead of putting your boat away like now.

[ShawnPin]

it may sound like that but if you ask any of the elders that fished the rivers back then and still fish them now they would gladly tell you there is no comparison.

You sir are spot on !!

Edited August 15, 2014 by ShawnPin

[Silver Fox]

Why is there such a knee jerk reaction? The last 3 years the runs on the rivers have been nuts. Like I can never remember.

One bad year class doesnt mean the whole system is broken

Maybe your at the salmon river. Not from the Genny to the west.