Little salmon

[King Davy]

To Scott's point 10% is actually on the high side of the stocked fish that return to rivers of origin. Now that data is strictly an Altmar Hatchery recovery statement since this is the only location able to collect reliable data. General long term Avg. has been in the 7% range for the stocked fish. The wild card is the wild fish. With years after seining studies were complete that estimated 7 to 10 million fry had sucessfully hatched, and on a bad year as low as 3 million, you still don't get true survival rates of the wild fish. Returns to the hatchery the last couple years has put the wild to stock ratio in the 50 to 60% range, for wild fish on return of the fish sampled by DEC.

 

Lots to consider in the harvert of our Salmon these days. There seems to be a tournament every weekend for 2.5 months, Those total points tourney's put the very best Salmon fishermen on LO in play. I'll bring up a data point I pointed out to DEC back in 1993, when they produced salmon harvested per trip ratios. They mixed rec and charter anglers together which brought the avg per day down. I told them they needed three data points pro and rec and all....When you run it that way the pro's who are out usually more then recs had a much higher per boat trip avg of catching and harvesting fish.  

 

Nothing unusual about that but you have to consider it's not necessarily how many people are fishing, but that the fewer boats that are out there with higher skills can put more pressure on the population then many more less skilled anglers. I would guess with all the tools that the rec angler has at their disposal these days and the Sharing of inforamtion, rec angler skills on Avg are much greater then 5 years ago, and way better then a decade ago.

 

Salmon harvest has been in record all time highs on avg the past five years against the long term avg. So while boat trips are way down from the long term avg. you guys are much better anglers. My only comment on keeping fish...is a licensed angler has the right to decide. While it's the true herritage of American Angling, however there is no going back on the fact that a 1.5 to two year old fish in a cooler isn't going to ever be a three or four year old mature spawner.

[RYE]

Typically, clients who spend their hard earned monies on a charter do not want a box of small fish to show for their efforts. Charters most often will pull off pods of these juveniles, when located, and search out better quality fish for their crews. Three silvers of 15" in size doesn't make for much of a bag of fillets for the persons traveling back to their home state with. It tends to become a production element for the captain, not that I believe box fulls of quality sized fish should be the only reason for myself and crew being on the water. Being out there on a beautiful day will always out weight a box full in my book. But, it's high on the list of actions that generally brings the client(s) back.

If you want to keep a legal fish, enjoy the meal, but I do not think there are many captains on Lake O keeping them simply to boost their box numbers, my opinion.

[Silver Fox]

I have never kept a 1yr old for a charter. It just isn't right. Too many survive after release.

[Patriot]

I don’t assume that ALL charters are keeping 15" fish but I see these “fly by night†end of season types & recs keep these small fish. With that and the overall survival rate of these fish, how can it not have a neg. impact?

 I’m just glad I’m not a fish cleaner, I’d go nuts. I talked to one fish cleaner and he sees it all day long. He just shruggs his shoulders, he's jaded to it.

As far as tourneys, they could use a size limit too. Not good for the fishermen but good for the fish.

Oh, if the guy is that bad off that he needs to feed his family these fish, chances are he doesn’t even have a boat to fish out of. Come on…

 

I’m done, think the way you want, I’d NEVER keep a 15†2-3 lb. Skippy salmon. That’s not what they’re planted here for.

[LongLine]

A lot off good points made in this thread.

 

Just some thoughts:

 

Survival rates are in the 7-15% range and they do fluctuate from year to year.  Pen rearing has definitely helped returns to certain ports, however survival rates outside the pens are a different subject.

.

Percentages of wild fish are percentages of those returning.  The hatchery does see thousands every year however that is a long ways from millions.

.

A lot of charters that don't catch some decent Kings in a limited time will often target other species. i.e. Lakers & browns that BTW are getting huge.

 

Along with the legal length limit, there's also a daily limit. 

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[GAMBLER]

I'm not to sure C&R is a thing that should be done ALL of the the time either.  Too many fish = less bait. Right now that is not the problem but could be down the road.  Fish DO need to be kept no matter what the size (it is a put and take fishery).   

[tiogafishaddict]

Let's pretend there are big problems with salmon populations.

[Adk1]

I am kind of surprised the minimum size is 15" actually

[Tall Tails]

I am kind of surprised the minimum size is 15" actually

 

MIchigan it is 12".  Also just to clear up any misconsceptions.  There is not a single tournament on the US side of the lake where the minimum size is 15".  The size limit is in place because we have a daily bag limit.  And lets not forget there is also a possesion limit.  Many forget that as they are driving home from the lake with a 3 day catch of fillets in there cooler..... 

[King Davy]

....Fry numbers after seining with the Scientific accepted algorithm Dr Mike uses at the Cape with the seining results dictates a number. Each year I receive these results. So when we talk 3 to 10 M fry we aren't stating that there are 10 million recruitable mature salmon from a hatch. And in the case of wild fish they can't but guess how many survive. But say a year class is at 10 M...then of course 7% recruitable spawners would be 700K.

 

But survival rates to adult phase is a Swag at best. I would bet the wild number is much lower ...say below 5% and closer to 3%. If the long term avg since they began the spring netting which is now 14 15 years of data...is say 5M ...that would suggest at a reasonable 3% sucess rate about an additional 150K to 200K fish in the system, which seems about right for the results of the last five years. This is the 2011 3 year old class which probably makes up most of the mature wild fish that was way down because of the drought. So highly likely we don't have the flush of wild matures we've seen the last couple years.

 

Then if there was an off year of stocked fish in conjunction with this 2011 wild class....it's probable the returns will be down. Sounds like fish are starting to stage and show up. I stood on the Genny pier last Sun 8:30 in the morning and watched dozens of salmon breaking the surface. We'll know for sure real soon. I wouldn't be running past 20 to 50 foot of water these days.

[skipper19]

Taken from the NYS Conservation Page on Possession. ..to be clear

Fish Caught in New York State:

The possession limit when OFF the water

No more than two days legal take of non‑salable fish may be transported unless a permit is obtained from a DEC Regional Office, or the fish are frozen, processed and packaged for storage.

I think this is to say you can be on vacation for a week and transport off the water a daily limit of a processed packaged species times 7.

.

The possession limit while ON the water.

A person may not have in possession, or intentionally kill or injure fish other than the sizes specified and allowed for that species on a given water.A person may not possess, kill or unnecessarily injure fish in excess of the daily limit for that species.The fish an angler catches and immediately releases uninjured will not be counted as part of the daily limit for that species.

There are tournaments on Lake Ontario that will weigh 15 inch fish..not a requirement other than legal NYS size to enter...doesn't mean everyone is weighing a cooler full of them. ...20 inches is a yearling over winter into May. 12 inches is ridiculous...10 inches and 5 daily limit..what it really is in lake Michigan is ludicrous! !! Even for lake trout! ...Stan from California would even laugh at that!.. .Michigan (the lake) has smaller kings too...and complainers of no box limits anymore. .huh? why?

A parody. ..not same animals but anyway..

Shoot all the spike horns and kill 3 does within the law and then hunt for a 10 point trophy in three or four years while picking over 8 pointers all day every day....NOT! Lucky to see a four point....

We as humans micromanage within the law because we can for our benefit. The pen projects thankfully do that. So does QDM herd management...Kings released into deep water to survive the first year from predators to 15 inches while learning to eat natural prey following migrations after being fed pellets by humans. The larger salmon 2 years and up are more efficient hunters after experience in the natural world. They eat more than small salmon by their weight.

Law is a base line even the tournaments think are ridiculous otherwise they would keep a box full of 15 inch kings. Given the magnitude of participants in LOC it's good the Salmon has to weigh 20 "LBS" to qualify.

Cent frum my notso smart fone

Edited September 5, 2014 by skipper19

[Shelby Lynn]

I wouldn't normally keep any salmon 15" or even close to that! But with that being said if I have my 8 year old grandson out with me and he reels in a 15" fish and wants to keep it, you can bet your life savings that it is going in the cooler! because there is no way he can reel in a slob all by himself and I want him to be able to enjoy the thrill we all get reeling in a salmon "I did it all by myself Pop-Pop"

[salmonboy41]

I don't see any issue with keeping a 1 year old king every now and then for two reasons. One for a signal guy or a family of 2 a mature king is way to big for them to eat even one filet where as a 1 year old king is just about perfect. Second sometimes when you catch one there hooked to deep to revive.

Where I do see a problem is when ppl go and target them and fill up coolers with them on a daily biases. Now I know ALOT of people refuse to do this, but I know that some due as I seen it many times this year by one boat that would have the whole boats limit of barely and I mean barely legal kings that I believe is very unethical. Its like picking apples before they are ripe. 

 

As far as survival rates don't they figure about 45 thousand kings run up the SR, at least that's what I've read in New York fish and game not saying its accurate though. But if it is that would mean that on a year where they stock 300K  kings and have 5 million natural kings that would mean the survival rate is less then 1% even I would bet that the stocked fish survival is much higher then that.

[mudflat]

I'd rather see a 15"er in my box and included in my daily limit than one floating behind the boat because someone thought it was too small to keep and wanted to upgrade.  I release them if at all possible but feel terrible if they don't make it.

 

When hunting you can be very selective as to what size you're targeting, not always possible when fishing but I feel you're legally and morally obligated to keep any "legal" fish that isn't going to survive.

I even hate releasing an undersized shaker if I don't think they are going to recover.

[f1sh-0n]

I have to agree with the op. I have seen more skippys on boards from charters than any year that I have been fishing. These are the fry that have made it past the hardest part of their life cycle. These are the fish that will mature. I don't think there are many predators to a 15-20" salmon. I really don't see the point of keeping a 15" salmon when they are capable of growing to 40". I don't think many of us are out there actually feeding our family. And if we are it would definitely be cheaper to go the grocery store. Now with that said it is the law and is your choice to keep 15" salmon. And I'm not out there trying to make a living.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Lake Ontario United mobile app

Edited September 6, 2014 by f1sh-0n

[cpate1]

ok here are my thoughts on it a 15 inch salmon well I have never caught one that small but if I did and nothing else being caught at that time and I have released several of them I would move to a different location to try to find bigger fish. yes I do keep fish the salmon I have caught this year have been from 10-20 lbs and I kept all 4 of them I kept 6 browns all over 4 lbs biggest 13 lbs and 4 steelhead 5-8 lbs yes I keep them to feed my family a better quality and healthier for you fish than you buy in the store we hate the GMO fish as they are bad for you much prefer nice good healthy fish from our fishery to eat that being said if I do catch a 15 inch salmon one day yes it will go back unless that is absolutely all I can find that day and I am out of fish in the freezer for my family to eat

[jimski2]

Small fish have accumulated less contaminants to your health so why keep the large fish?

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[ifishy]

a smaller fish is the perfect size to feed two If i'm catching fish all day and had my choice I would keep one in the 4lb range of the target species and let the rest go including the bigger ones my wife and I both like fresh fish but if i freeze it I will never thaw and eat it so there is no point in wasting it.  there are some people i can give fish to if I dont think they are going to make it but thats a last resort.  this spring I got a coho in the 20inch range i couldnt get that in the box fast enough everything else that day went swiming but that was the best fish meal i've had all year and I would keep another coho that size in a heartbeat.  keeping smaller fish in moderation is good harvest practice keeping everything to fill a box regarless of size not so much.  All that being said a put and take fishery depends on both put and take

[cpate1]

it definitely depends on put and take no way we can keep enough to destroy a put and take fishery as long as people keep them within the law. that is that they are put in for

[Silver Fox]

a smaller fish is the perfect size to feed two If i'm catching fish all day and had my choice I would keep one in the 4lb range of the target species and let the rest go including the bigger ones my wife and I both like fresh fish but if i freeze it I will never thaw and eat it so there is no point in wasting it. there are some people i can give fish to if I dont think they are going to make it but thats a last resort. this spring I got a coho in the 20inch range i couldnt get that in the box fast enough everything else that day went swiming but that was the best fish meal i've had all year and I would keep another coho that size in a heartbeat. keeping smaller fish in moderation is good harvest practice keeping everything to fill a box regarless of size not so much. All that being said a put and take fishery depends on both put and take

Yes them coho are fantastic! Try cleaning one right after boating it. The meat is FIRM.

[ifishy]

oh man I caught that in the spring when the water was 39 and had  it on the grill within about 5 hours my wife did a simple rub and some fresh veggies on the side i'm dying to get another one now hopefully the spring will grant me the same forutune again next year

[Patriot]

I wouldn't normally keep any salmon 15" or even close to that! But with that being said if I have my 8 year old grandson out with me and he reels in a 15" fish and wants to keep it, you can bet your life savings that it is going in the cooler! because there is no way he can reel in a slob all by himself and I want him to be able to enjoy the thrill we all get reeling in a salmon "I did it all by myself Pop-Pop"

Of course there are exceptions to my thoughts and this is one of them. A child catching his first salmon, yea!

[tiogafishaddict]

I ate 3 kings this weekend. Me and my buddy. Campfire lemon old bay olive oil and 3-4 lb king.... Yum!

[Adk1]

I have been trying to catch a coho and have had 0 success. There are many good points of view from everyone on this post. But I agree the most with unless u are keeping illegal size fish, it's a pit and take fishery and there must be a scientific reason for dec setting the regulation size and catch limits

[Fishtails]

Well.... if you need to keep a 15" fish, either you don't fish too often, don't have many years of fishing under your belt or you don't catch many fish! Or, you need to bring every fish back to the dock, to show your buddies that you're the great white hunter.

Lets face it, it's all about the thrill of catching a big fish.. A 15" fish doesn't do it for me. Let it grow a few years and it will.

After 20 years of fishing these salmon, you'll get over it.

 

I don't think this is really an accurate blanket statement.  As an example, I just got back from a two day trip where I took two buddies up to Lake O.  They wanted fish, so why I normally release most fish this was a meat trip. We limited day one and one of those fish was a heavy bleeder 20" king.  Now, after being drug around behind a flasher fly and then reeled in and being out of the water a couple minutes to remove deep set hooks, that fish was dead - say whatever you will about it's chances, IMO it had no chance for survival.

 

In the box it went and I don't want to have to feel embarrassed about that because you or others think it makes me less of a fisherman?   Like Nick (Ruff Rider) , I put in a decent amount of trips per year for someone from SE Pa.  Don't judge me at the cleaning station based on the size of one fish. We kept a smaller suicide steelhead too.  

 

This mentality isn't right. Knowing it exists,  I cleaned the two small fish first, then the matures just to get them off the table.   I prefer to look at it this way instead.:  Using my trip as an example -  A boat goes out and takes it's legal limit. In my case it was 9 fish.  At the end of the trip we killed 9 fish.  Had I thrown those two dead smaller fish back and caught 2 more larger fish, we would have accounted for 11 dead fish.  

 

Add that up over the year with all the charters and do the math. It's actually conservation.  Those of us who account for the majority of fish caught over a whole season do care, and we release every small fish possible.  If it's going to die, please cull it and put it towards your limit and enjoy

 

Just my opinion on the matter, for what it's worth.

 

 

As a side note guys, the fishing right now rocks !!  Bait is still in the bellies and the kings and coho's are in Oswego and as of yesterday they were still biting hard !!  It was an all A-Tom-Mik fly bite for us and they are swallowing the fly's right now with long blistering runs.  These kings still have a lot left in the tank!  Tons of fun right now, get out it you can.

 

 

 

I have been trying to catch a coho and have had 0 success.

 

Hey ADK1,  The Coho have shown up in Oswego and in good numbers.  We caught 4 in the 8-12 lb range just two days ago.  They were mixed in with the kings and also a bit outside of them.  They were still silver and still holding in temp, so in our case the Coho were 120 - 150 foot of cable out on the riggers with a 12lb shark just after a west blow, but that was coming up fast as we left with a hard south wind.  Get em while you can !!!

Edited September 10, 2014 by Fishtails