Leader question

[Zippy83]

Hi all,

I am experimenting with new leaders for muskie fishing. I have seen this setup being used this summer while I was down in Florida deep sea fishing. I thought I could use the same set-up for muskies. My only concern is the following:

1. Do you think that the fish would notice the stainless steel thimble that attaches to the snap and the swivel? The purpose of the thimble is to protest the 100lb fluorocarbon leader from getting damaged while we jerk the baits... The picture is attached to the post..

Any input on this is highly appreciated

Thanks

Zipp

Edited September 9, 2014 by Zippy83

[Sk8man]

I'm certainly not an experienced musky guy but if it were me I'd be using black Spro swivels (much stronger yet smaller in size) and the thimble I'd try to either get a black one or paint them black if you don't want to call attention to them as ANY shiny object will probably get their attention and maybe detract from the lure presentation as well.  Maybe use a clear bead also as the red may attract attention to the connection and away from the lure?

 

Something that this rig brings up in my mind  is the issue of fluoro vs. mono as well. The primary touted value of fluoro is the supposed "invisibility" under water-especially shallow or extremely clear water. When this large a diameter of fluoro used is the "invisibility" factor still there? and would a little "stretch" using mono be beneficial in a hookup?  Just some things that struck me looking at the rig and maybe my thinking is way off the mark but I thought I'd throw it out there for you to think about anyway   Good luck with it either way

[Zippy83]

Thanks for your reply. 

 

The medium size thimbles only come in the stainless steel color, I thought about painting it with my air brush black but I think that the swivel and the snap would take that black color off in matter of a few casts since it's loose on it and can slide back and forth. I am really not concerned about the swivel visibility since its about 12" away from the lure, I am more concerned about the area where the snap is located. I can definitely use a clear bead.. 

 

As far as your under the water invisibility goes I am not sure how to respond. I also fish for trout and I use 4LB flouro and I have had pretty good luck using it, I also fished 4LB mono a few years back and had a pretty good turnout. The only reason I switched from mono to flouro is because the advertisement caught my eye and I kind of stuck with it. Maybe next time I catch one I can ask if it saw my line  

 

Thanks

Zipp

[Sk8man]

 Zipp,

 

I too use fluoro in the lighter diameters especially for stream fishing and panfish, trolling leaders etc. and like you have had good success with it. I'm wondering though if ANY line is truly "invisible" to fish when it is of LARGE diameter and I know the fluoro can be quite brittle especially in real cold weather/water. I switched back to 50 lb. mono tying my trolling flies (trout/salmon) because of breakage on commercially tied 40 lb fluoro leaders...as I believe that the mono takes the shock from savage hits better than fluoro but it would take a really big shock to break 100 lb test fluoro I would think

I think for muskies I would be thinking about either titanium (thin and strong) or camo stainess wire

Edited September 9, 2014 by Sk8man

[Ivan]

I'd lose the silver things and the red beads an you should be good to go.  I personally wouldn't want that extra stuff on there. I use 80lb fluoro for trolling leaders and just tie them, but your crimps are fine as long as they are solid/hold well. For actual jerkbaits and gliders, most prefer a solid wire leader...you get better bait action.

 

I know guys that still use black, plastic coated, steel leaders and they catch muskies.  I used to catch muskies on those types of leaders.  So, I guess my point is most muskies are not line/leader shy.  However, years back I switched to fluoro leaders on clear water like St Clair and have never switched back to steel for most applications.

[muskiedreams]

If you are digging bottom while trolling or jigging bottom where everything is crusted with zebra mussels, the flouro will be damaged by the zebra mussels. This may cause you to leave a lure in the mouth of a musky. It can kill the fish and you will be out an expensive lure. Not to mention not catching the fish. That will not happen with a solid steel leader. If you do decide to use floro, you must check for abrasions often and replace the leader when it occours. Some say that musky teeth can bite off floro and I think it is very possible. They will not use it under any circumstances. The brand of floro you use can also make a difference (I beleive Seaguar is considered to be the best). I mostly use steel but under extremely clear water conditions (especially shallow and bright conditions) I might consider using floro with great care. But I do catch fish with steel in clear water conditions. Muskies are gennerally not as warry as trout.

[Zippy83]

Thanks guys... I don't do a whole lot of trolling, it;s mostly casting.. The leader material is made by Seaguar "Blue Label" considered one of the best in 100# and 130# test. The only reason I had the metal thimbles on is I was worried that the snap and the swivel might damage the leader loop that is around it. That might not be the case... I really wish these bigger leaders were easier to tie and I would never use the sleeves...  

[justtracytrolling]

I use 50 pound seaguar blue and never use steel, BUT as Steve mentioned you really have to check for damage often. Weeds DO wear leaders big time at musky speeds. IMO as long as you pay attention to detail many things will work, but if you dont nothing holds up to muskies!

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[Ivan]

Muskiedreams makes a good point about specific applications which I kind of referenced. I'm guessing he is referring to fishing the Niagara River and can see his point for sure.  That is not a place I fish or application I need to worry about.  I check the fluoro leaders I use for trolling often for abrasion, and I rarely contact bottom most places I muskie fish. Some get retied/replaced after one fish.  Others can last me a few weekends before I change them....just keep an eye on them.

 

Speaking of different or specific applications as they relate to leaders...I have been fishing the Georgian Bay in the fall some the past few years.  We do quite a bit of bottom contact with our trolled cranks there. It didn't take me many shoals to figure out that the best line/leader there is monel wire line and no leader.

[justtracytrolling]

Couldnt agree more Ivan. There is no right answer that fits all applications. Everyone has to take what they read and APPLY it to their fishing situation.

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[mostlymuskies]

I have used Seaguar Fluorocarbon 80 lb test for my Muskie Casting & Trolling Leaders since 1993 and have never had a break off or bite off.I tie all of mine with Improved Clinch Knots as well, using StayLok Snap at one end and Aussie 650 lb Swivel between main line and leader.Sometimes I use the same leader from May to Dec before it needs to be changed.The only time I use wire is when jigging or dragging Tubes across the bottom.

[old man]

I used fluorocarbon leaders for a while. Trouble is they don't kink or show signs of wear. Then when changing lures once the snap broke due to metal fatigue i guess. At least with metal leaders they get tweaked after a couple fish and you change them out. Plus a single stand wire leader acts like a machete as you hack through weeds.

[iiwhistlerii]

I started as a die hard fluoro guy and would have argued with anybody that told me it wasn't bite proof. 2 years ago my fishing partner was bit clean off jigging a tube with a 150 lb fluoro leader. That day I decided I wouldn't use fluoro leaders for casting any bait i felt a musky could put down its throat. The next May I was casting a phantom softail for pike and using up the last of my short casting fluoro leaders and had a fish bite me clean off shortly after a hookset. If you are using a small lure or a lure that the leader lines up with the bait on a pause (glidebaits) those teeth can and will cut through fluoro like nothing. That being said I continue to use 6 ft tied 100lb fluorocarbon leaders for trolling on lakes like Chautauqua and st. Clair, don't trust crimps, when we jigged with fluoro and snagged up the crimps almost always failed before the 80lb braid or actual fluoro snapped, that's not acceptable to me. When I'm on waters where I'm slamming bottom like the Niagara I'll stick with hand twisted 174 lb single strand steel. Today for both casting a jigging I use 174 lb haywire twisted single strand steel with spro swivels and number 5 stringease snaps and have never had a failure. Leaving a lure in a fish with fluorocarbon isn't cool and imo using anything less than 80lb fluorocarbon trolling is just irresponsible.

[Zippy83]

I started as a die hard fluoro guy and would have argued with anybody that told me it wasn't bite proof. 2 years ago my fishing partner was bit clean off jigging a tube with a 150 lb fluoro leader. That day I decided I wouldn't use fluoro leaders for casting any bait i felt a musky could put down its throat. The next May I was casting a phantom softail for pike and using up the last of my short casting fluoro leaders and had a fish bite me clean off shortly after a hookset. If you are using a small lure or a lure that the leader lines up with the bait on a pause (glidebaits) those teeth can and will cut through fluoro like nothing. That being said I continue to use 6 ft tied 100lb fluorocarbon leaders for trolling on lakes like Chautauqua and st. Clair, don't trust crimps, when we jigged with fluoro and snagged up the crimps almost always failed before the 80lb braid or actual fluoro snapped, that's not acceptable to me. When I'm on waters where I'm slamming bottom like the Niagara I'll stick with hand twisted 174 lb single strand steel. Today for both casting a jigging I use 174 lb haywire twisted single strand steel with spro swivels and number 5 stringease snaps and have never had a failure. Leaving a lure in a fish with fluorocarbon isn't cool and imo using anything less than 80lb fluorocarbon trolling is just irresponsible.

I would disagree with you on the crimp statement. Deep see fisherman have been making their leaders using crimped sleeves for decades for way bigger and more aggressive fish such as sharks, tuna, sailfish, marlin etc. I have seen muskie fisherman crimp their leaders the wrong way, using the wrong tools, and wrong sleeves. I am not saying that you might have done it wrong, but if done right it will last you longer then a tied leader. But again everyone has the right to their opinion and I respect that  

 

My only concern was the thimble on my setup for muskies... Looks like I will lose those after yesterday, it seems to be throwing my lure action a little off due to the extra weight. 

 

Thanks

Zipp

[iiwhistlerii]

I started with store bought crimped leaders from companies like musky innovations. When snagged up the leader almost always broke at the crimp. II went through the same thing with multiple leaders and the crimp was almost always the weak point. I'm not saying they would have ever failed on a fish but I don't think my leader should ever fail before my 80lb braid snaps. Imo the best store bought fluoro leaders out there are from stealth leader company. They are nail knotted and then the tag end is crimped. These leaders never snapped before my line in a snag and the only failure we had with them was being bit off, twice with the 150 lb casting leaders like I mentioned above. For my fluoro trolling leaders I use today I only use knots and the weakest point in the setup is the 80lb braid.

[Zippy83]

I agree with you, I have had the same luck with Musky Innovations leaders few years back, but again it all comes down to how you crimp, what tools you use, and if you have the right components. Under-crimping the sleeves will result in the leader failing due to a slip, and over-crimping the sleeve will result in a broken leader at the sleeve as we both have seen. Again you need the right tools to do the job.