Antler Restriction

[Chas0218]

It's a double edged sword.  I feel if you can afford to hunt now a days your family isn't starving lets admit hunting is just as expensive if not more than fishing. The argument that it is cheaper is bull and you all know it, the only time it maybe cheaper is when you have invested close to $1000 as the "start up fee".

 

I feel there should be antler restrictions and if that one guy wants to hunt for meat kill a doe. I don't understand these "meat hunters" that insist on killing young bucks.  A mature doe will give you 20lbs. more meat than any spike or young buck not to mention there are more of them and need to be thinned in most areas. 

 

I hunt 3 different areas ranging in hunting pressure from high to low.  In the high pressure area I see nice deer but give them a pass hoping there might be something nicer later on knowing 100% of the deer I pass on in that area will get shot come gun season. But that is the choice I make.

[PeltHunter]

It's a double edged sword.  I feel if you can afford to hunt now a days your family isn't starving lets admit hunting is just as expensive if not more than fishing. The argument that it is cheaper is bull and you all know it, the only time it maybe cheaper is when you have invested close to $1000 as the "start up fee".

 

I feel there should be antler restrictions and if that one guy wants to hunt for meat kill a doe. I don't understand these "meat hunters" that insist on killing young bucks.  A mature doe will give you 20lbs. more meat than any spike or young buck not to mention there are more of them and need to be thinned in most areas. 

 

I hunt 3 different areas ranging in hunting pressure from high to low.  In the high pressure area I see nice deer but give them a pass hoping there might be something nicer later on knowing 100% of the deer I pass on in that area will get shot come gun season. But that is the choice I make.

That center section is where most of my griping comes from, most areas you will see 25 does per buck so why not shoot one of those does instead of the 3 point buck that walks past you just to say you got your buck for the year. When I'm hunting to fill the freezer I'd much rather shoot a 165-175lb mature doe than a 125lb 4 point to say I filled my antlered tag.

[fbg14619]

If he sees a flash of horns and shoots at it, he should not own a gun and never hunt again.

_{Lots of people should not own guns or be hunting but they own guns and do go hunting.   Just the other day  a convicted felon was out squirrel}

_{hunting and killed his hunting partner.  The law prohibited him from having a gun but there he was out there with one.  Just saying that there are}

_{people who have itchy fingers and there are people who will break the law.}

[iceman05]

Chas0218 when you say if you hunt now a days you can afford to feed your family that maybe the case for you but you have to remember we all don't walk in the same shoes. I for instance probably spend more than I'd actually ever like to total. However my buddy who I mentioned before doesn't spend that money he shoots a rem 870 with remington $5 box sluggers and a plain blaze orange bib.....it's these guys who I think we would be pushing out of the sport....that seems to lose more and more hunters each year . I do however like the results in states that have the earn a buck program where you must first shoot a doe . Just my two cents which is probably worth .05 cents

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[Chas0218]

Chas0218 when you say if you hunt now a days you can afford to feed your family that maybe the case for you but you have to remember we all don't walk in the same shoes. I for instance probably spend more than I'd actually ever like to total. However my buddy who I mentioned before doesn't spend that money he shoots a rem 870 with remington $5 box sluggers and a plain blaze orange bib.....it's these guys who I think we would be pushing out of the sport....that seems to lose more and more hunters each year . I do however like the results in states that have the earn a buck program where you must first shoot a doe . Just my two cents which is probably worth .05 cents

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Kind of what I meant.  But that guy you are referring too probably mentions he saw __ doe but saw this buck behind them or whatever.  

 

My opinion is that that guy still had to spend the money on the gun, clothes, ammo.  That all adds up, with that money the guy probably could have bough half a cow.  Does this guy butcher his own deer?  If so he could cut the half a cow into what he needs.  If not then there goes another $50-$70.  Like any sport it costs money and feeding the family from hunting isn't that feasible anymore.  Now there are exceptions to everything but for the most part in todays society it takes a long time to make back the money invested.

 

If these so called "meat hunters" are truly meat hunting then they would shoot whatever gives them the first opportunity which isn't the case with most people.

 

I want to add I am in no way attacking your friend or any one person.  I'm just calling a spade a spade.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Chas0218

[iceman05]

Kind of what I meant. But that guy you are referring too probably mentions he saw __ doe but saw this buck behind them or whatever.

My opinion is that that guy still had to spend the money on the gun, clothes, ammo. That all adds up, with that money the guy probably could have bough half a cow. Does this guy butcher his own deer? If so he could cut the half a cow into what he needs. If not then there goes another $50-$70. Like any sport it costs money and feeding the family from hunting isn't that feasible anymore. Now there are exceptions to everything but for the most part in todays society it takes a long time to make back the money invested.

If these so called "meat hunters" are truly meat hunting then they would shoot whatever gives them the first opportunity which isn't the case with most people.

I want to add I am in no way attacking your friend or any one person. I'm just calling a spade a spade.

No hard feelings I didn't take it that way at all ....I do wish the state could manage hunter retention and the deer heard ......my own personal way of managing my property is to pass smaller bucks but as for the yahoo neighbor hunting 6guys on 10 acres I doubt he passes on fawn let alone a 4pt ..... Who I dislike to use kind words

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Edited October 8, 2014 by iceman05

[Chas0218]

No hard feelings I didn't take it that way at all ....I do wish the state could manage hunter retention and the deer heard ......my own personal way of managing my property is I'll only shoot a bigger then what I have in the past

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Yeah I have the same philosophy but only because my wife said it has to be bigger than the last to go on the wall...

Edited October 8, 2014 by Chas0218

[Frogger]

Chas, I get what your saying, now a days to actually break down your costs, in the end, on average, hunting deer may not be your best financial sense in a way of feeding your family.  Unless your not paying tag fees, etc, in the end you could be looking at 2-3.00 a lb of cost (1 deer) and thats if you butcher it yourself with no added pork butt costs.  Obviously that cost goes down the more deer you shoot, but your own time ways in to the cost now.  In the end it ends up being a tradition, family values, sport that usually wins on why we do it.  To say that we do it to feed the family, its a hard sell with what it actually costs when you look at the total picture.

[PeltHunter]

Here are two of the bigger deer that we have taken there are two tracts of hardwoods that the bigger bucks lock down in during the season and that is why we can get them, the other side of it is no hunting. Everything that is taken around there is much smaller because people shoot the first antlered deer they see instead of taking does. Just showing what came from a 15 acre plot and shows the potential with better management for the deer in New York. And the 9 point was not shot by me I was 14 and shot my first doe before dark the night before and was going to find it with my uncle and he shot it out of my scope lol.

[BarringtonTrapper]

If you dont own land then dont bother to push the qdm down my throat . I pay my land tax and my sole purpose is to hunt, I follow the rules but I will not be told how big or small a deer I can harvest on my land. Its too bad the things have horns in the first place, Then the" my deer is better than yours" mentalitity would stop. I live in one of the best deer counties in the state and have never harvested anything bigger than a 7 pt. , I dont hunt for horns, they are still tough after cooking. Fact is I dont pass on anything I can legally harvest because If I pass then the deer runs off the property and is shot by the neighbor .

[PeltHunter]

If you dont own land then dont bother to push the qdm down my throat . I pay my land tax and my sole purpose is to hunt, I follow the rules but I will not be told how big or small a deer I can harvest on my land. Its too bad the things have horns in the first place, Then the" my deer is better than yours" mentalitity would stop. I live in one of the best deer counties in the state and have never harvested anything bigger than a 7 pt. , I dont hunt for horns, they are still tough after cooking. Fact is I dont pass on anything I can legally harvest because If I pass then the deer runs off the property and is shot by the neighbor .

I own part of the land I hunt on, my father and I had to buy it to get the two other pieces together, as for "my deer is bigger than yours" I don't think very many have that mentality I know for a fact that if anyone in my family harvests a large deer everyone is happy for them. Its not about competition its about having quality deer now and sustaining more quality deer in the future.

[JakeyBaby]

If he sees a flash of horns and shoots at it, he should not own a gun and never hunt again.

X10 what he said!!

[GAMBLER]

I'm not a fan of antler restrictions.  I do not hunt a lot but I enjoy eating venison.  I will take a small buck so I can get back to perch fishing.  Doesn't allowing bucks with bad genetics (small goofy racks) breed with does screw up QDM? 

[justtracytrolling]

I can afford to feed my family from the store I just dont. I use does to do this and I have chosen a target rich location to hunt so I wouldnt care if they shut buck hunting down for 2 years to build age classes, but I KNOW that would be counterproductive when hunter numbers are falling and herd size is rising. As far as cost of hunting its nearly free if you meat hunt the way I grew up. We wore the exact same clothes hunting as working, no scents, calls, treestands, etc. Just a cheap hand me down gun and the cheapest slugs we could find and a license. Walk out back and shoot a deer, and of course butcher, grind, etc yourself. NO MONEY SPENT. BTW this is how I killed my biggest buck rackwise. Its not all about big deer. We do have to preserve the sport meaning we need young hunters and pushing people away or discouraging them wont help either.

[skipjack]

Gambler thats what I was always told. Basket racks will pretty much always be a smaller rack. And for those who say if you can afford to hunt can afford to buy food. How do you figure I have an 870 that's 20 year's old I haven't bought a shell four it in years but still shoot 2 doe and a buck a year. Some times four doe a year. Im hear to say what i have invested is way less then how much beef I would buy to replace it. I always try to shoot bigger deer and have not had to shoot more then once in years. But let me tell you there has been years where I wished I shot the first buck I saw, because I never saw one again the rest of the season.

[BSmaster]

Chas, The only expensive part of deer hunting for me is taking the meat to have hot dogs made.  1 deer 1 shell.  I have a lifetime sportsman so I have my tags except for bow and muzzleloader.  I grew up with a butcher and was pre-med so I process deer better than the fall only professionals.  I say so because it is true.  They go faster to make money.  I go slower because it is mine.  If I eat beef steaks twice a month - there goes my bow and muzzleloader fee.  I am not trying to argue with you but I am a cheap sob and I know cheaper than me and old clothes, hand me down gun, plain shells, work just fine.  Upgrading is an option - not a requirement.

 

The flip side of this is when I contemplate buying under armour and etc - Wow!  You are right on the money now.  If you buy all the latest outfitter and gadgets like spotting scopes and binoculars etc.  factor all that in & I could buy venison from the deer farm and be ahead.

[thumbburn]

Antler restriction... Yes!!!! Doe permits when you get a license... Apply for a buck permit... And most importantly... SHORTEN THE GUN SEASON!!!!

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[Gill-T]

I grew up hunting in Arkport in one of the most deer infested areas of the state.  Our camp evolved from shoot any buck to only eight pointers or larger to only 120 class bucks or larger with a fine of $400 per incident if your buck didn't measure up.   Needless to say we saw the fruits of our labor with deer in the 140 class taken every year.  However, the stress of the fine broke up the group and my life is less interesting because of it.  My advise would be no legal antler restrictions.  Our group was one of the first involved with QDM and we got many area landowners to come along.  Rising water floats all boats.  Get involved.  Talk to neighbors.  Show them facts.  Ask them the last time they shot a 120 class or larger buck?  We don't need any more regulations.  I saw with my own eyes, seven pointers shot and left with an empty shell near the body where someone thought they had an eight pointer and left it because of hill rules.  Hunting should not be stressful.  It should be relaxing with moments of sheer adrenaline.

 

I also want the ability to cull a stupid racked scrub with bad genes!!!

Edited October 8, 2014 by Gill-T

[Steelman]

This is what I have noticed that a lot of people keep saying and using to support there ideas.  QDM is not Quality Horn Management.  QDM is quality deer management, and that mainly consist of balancing the herd with the habitat, balancing the doe to buck ratio and balancing the age class of deer.  Look at a QDMA statement “…is a management philosophy/practice that unites landowners, hunters, and managers in a common goal of producing biologically and socially balanced deer herds within existing environmental, social, and legal constraints.†Look at Pensylvania game commission and the reason behind the QDM program, it was solely to balance the herd and the eco system, in order for hunters in PA to go along with this plan they raised the age class of the deer in PA woods and it gave hunters bigger horns.  This did not happen overnight.  Look at all the PA hunters that bought up land and leases in NY because of this.  At camp 4 different groups of PA hunters bought up or leased up hunting land all around us.  It was quite a few years before they started to see the impact of PA's management plan and still these guys all come here to see deer.  Antler restrictions are not QDM.  With that said the land in NY is so diverse its very easy for some of you to say shoot the doe you damn meat hunters.  Well guys I am fortunate enough to be able to reside in northern NY and have a hunting camp in Southern NY.  Here at home we dont get doe permits issued because the herd is under capacity.  For some up here and for good reason shooting a doe is frowned upon and only legal during bow or Ml season.  You guys on over capacity land may not understand this until you spend some time up here deer hunting and not seeing deer every time you enter the woods.  Many among the community also like horn hunters but with does have a let it walk policy.  For example a doe that has twin fawns year after year, people identify certain markings like a scar etc and share that with family, friends or others in the area.  If a doe is dropping two fawns a year and we are under capacity it just makes more sense to let these walk and kill a buck.  LIke I said before I hunt mainly for meat, I wont tell you its cheaper or any other excuse other than I like venison and so does my family,  The mentality has changed a bit for us northern guys having areas to hunt in a decent populated deer area down south.  That change is from the season date changes. The desire, need. passion, hunger what ever you want to call it is nulled a bit knowing we can go down south and harvest a doe earlier in the season and get some venison in our freezers.  This has led some of us into letting younger age class bucks walk and not taking a doe with bow or ML.  If you live up here this opportunity has been well received for some.  So what Im saying is QDM is not antler management, antler restrictions are not going to help everyone nor is it good state wide.  Stick Antler restritions in N.Tier and you will see more does taken in an already under capacity deer population.  If it was at capacity or above you would see doe permits being issued.  The NY state deer herd is so diverse some guys just will never understand who are in an area that is over capacity they see what is in front of them and not what is everywhere in the state.  Now how in the heck does DEC manage any kind of restricitons on a state wide basis, and how do they micro manage as well.  Just in one WMU alone certain areas may be just about void of deer and then the big farm or little city down the road 20 miles has deer eating themselves to death.  I dont want to call it selfish cause it just sounds wrong but I dont know how else to explain the desire for Antler Restricitions, You may want it to better last years buck, show off to your friends, maybe the challenge alone of hunting one particular deer, a picture in a magazine of you holding a state record I just dont know but its not right, fair or even sportsman like to determine your way is the only way or the better way for others to abide by.  There are enough laws, taxes and stuff crammed down our throats that we already have to deal with as a tax paying land owner in this state let alone for some wanting or telling us we cant harvest a deer we deem fit thats within the current laws we already have. 

 

[Chas0218]

I see a lot of good points, the other thing that could benefit from the antler restrictions is bringing more people to NY to hunt!  Look at Ohio, Kansas, Illinois I have friends that take off from work/work seasonal jobs just so they can hunt "World Class deer" in other states.  I mean if we had hunting that compared to the big buck states there would be a ton more revenue for the state plus better herd management.  

 

I work with a guy that hunts, lives, and owns property in PA and he was completely against antler restrictions but they passed it anyway.  He said the first year of hunting there were few bucks shot but many doe (which balanced the herds).  The quality of the bucks AND does increased not to mention when you sit in the stand and pass on 120 class bucks knowing there are many more larger deer.

 

I don't see it as a pissing contest it's no more than someone catching a big fish. If you see it as those are "your deer" then more likely than not you are probably the same guy that ****es about someone fishing "your spot" on the lake.

Edited October 9, 2014 by Chas0218

[Frogger]

As you said Chas, lots of good points, I like steelmans input as well and a bunch of others.  I think thats whats different with Ohios "one" buck and your done ( for antlered deer) theory vs the antler restrictions.  It minimizes the arguement that hunters that prefer to shoot any age class deer for meat should be able to, with the one buck rule, if you want to shoot that basket rack go right ahead.  Once you do though, your done for bucks that year, now its only does that you can go after.  The problem is and not a lot of people want to step up and agree that were sometimes greedy and dont want to settle for only one buck in a season.  We dilute the issue by saying "tropy bucks" management isnt what we need because id rather feed my family.  Well, go ahead, and take your yearling buck and several does to do it and no one should question it.  For those hunters that say they can put one slug in and go out and spend the 5 minutes in the woods to get their deer, it shouldnt be that hard to mange that now should it?.  And thats I think what Ohio and some other states have figured out. Thats the biggest hill we need to get over.  If we can do that, its a huge win.

[GAMBLER]

As you said Chas, lots of good points, I like steelmans input as well and a bunch of others.  I think thats whats different with Ohios "one" buck and your done ( for antlered deer) theory vs the antler restrictions.  It minimizes the arguement that hunters that prefer to shoot any age class deer for meat should be able to, with the one buck rule, if you want to shoot that basket rack go right ahead.  Once you do though, your done for bucks that year, now its only does that you can go after. 

That would work for me.  One deer is all I take a year because that is all my family will consume until the following year. 

Edited October 9, 2014 by GAMBLER

[skipjack]

Boy great idea. Then we can get even more out of state and non local folks coming in and killing our deer and hunting in my spots. Just like the do with all the trib guys salmon and steelhead. This is funny. Any of you guys own land where the wild Russian hogs got loose? I do and I just love all the non locals and some locals trespassing on my land. From idiots posting in newspaper.

[vrundtjr150]

I would like to see a reduction in the amount of antlerles tags in addition to antler restrictions and a one buck a year senerio. We are seeing far fewer deer In the areas I hunt and I know many a button buck bites the dust to fill a doe tag. Plus it is tough to get new hunters excited to be out there when there are few sightings and even fewer harvest opportunities.

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