Mountain lion

[Great Lakes Lure Maker]

Pretty much exactly what the DEC said.

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[mhalsted]

lets think about this years and years ago there was no coyotes ware did they come from who put them here

[eatsleeptrout]

Years and years ago no coyotes? How many years ago are you speaking?

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[dawsonscreek]

It would be interesting to hear what you know. Personally, the DEC's study into the topic supports the lack of proof into the matter. They have made available a lot of years of research into the subject and thats were I choose to get my info on the topic. I have to laugh when I hear someone say " I know its true because I heard it". I prefer to get to the facts, so it would be interesting to hear what you know.

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I will definitely chime in once we finish the subject in class. My professor, Dr. John Van Niel, is extremely knowledgeable about North American mammals. But , like you, I prefer to post facts I know are true. I will not risk my reputation on things I heard, or that a friend of a friend heard. 

Edited November 20, 2014 by dawsonscreek

[whaler1]

70 lb coyote was shot in Webster a few years ago. Our biggest is 53 which is still a pig.

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[BarringtonTrapper]

Wheres the 70 lb yote picture, sure as heck not that one.

[Great Lakes Lure Maker]

No, probably not. Not 50 + lbs either. A 48 lb coyote is six ft long. That much I know. I have pics of one that weighs 48 lbs. And its held up against 8" cinder block wall. Its 6ft long from head to tail. That one isn't even 5 ft long. My guess is its in the 30 lb class. Put it on a scale and claim 50 plus if thats what it is.

Once again, " I know its true cause I heard it". Don't feed the nonsense, prove it!

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[whaler1]

Nope it's the 53. Kid in the pic is 235. It was in the D&C some years back. Biggest one I know of that was weighed on a a legit scale.

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[whaler1]

Most bigger yotes carry weight in their chest, not length. Say what you want we shoot 30 to 40 a year.

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[whaler1]

Good example of long, but not heavy.

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[dawsonscreek]

Can we stay on the topic of lions? I'd hate for this thread to get shut down similarly to the tributary forum bantering.

 

As an aside to all these claims of black mountain lions, I was going to wait but I guess I'm getting impatient. According to Missouri Department of Conservation, "Throughout its range, no melanistic (that means black) mountain lion has ever been documented by science". So if you hear a claim of people seeing a black lion, they saw either a large black house cat (I had one growing up that weighed over 20 pounds, he was obese though) or they saw a fisher, hell, maybe even a black bear. 

 

Now, in North America there are melanistic jaguars in the Southwest. Central and South America have these cats too. They are not a different species, they are no larger or smaller than a regular colored jaguar. They just have more of the pigment melanin. 

 

I did not want to comment on this subject really, as I hate debating with people. I could compare most debates with walking repeatedly into a brick wall, no progress is made. But, as I am hoping to have a career with one of the natural resource departments, I might as well get some practice informing people with facts rather than "wive's (wise) tales" . I make no claims to be an expert, a college degree doesn't mean I know what the hell I'm talking about, but I do take pride in the degree I'm working on and may know more than I'll give myself credit for. Contrarily, there's a student that sits two seats down from me, but rather than facts, he bases everything he says on what he's heard, he lacks the filter between his brain and mouth.....Goodnight.

Edited November 20, 2014 by dawsonscreek

[Great Lakes Lure Maker]

Can we stay on the topic of lions? I'd hate for this thread to get shut down similarly to the tributary forum bantering.

As an aside to all these claims of black mountain lions, I was going to wait but I guess I'm getting impatient. According to Missouri Department of Conservation, "Throughout its range, no melanistic (that means black) mountain lion has ever been documented by science". So if you hear a claim of people seeing a black lion, they saw either a large black house cat (I had one growing up that weighed over 20 pounds, he was obese though) or they saw a fisher, hell, maybe even a black bear.

Now, in North America there are melanistic jaguars in the Southwest. Central and South America have these cats too. They are not a different species, they are no larger or smaller than a regular colored jaguar. They just have more of the pigment melanin.

I did not want to comment on this subject really, as I hate debating with people. I could compare most debates with walking repeatedly into a brick wall, no progress is made. But, as I am hoping to have a career with one of the natural resource departments, I might as well get some practice informing people with facts rather than "wive's (wise) tales" . I make no claims to be an eUyxpert, a college degree doesn't mean I know what the hell I'm talking about, but I do take pride in the degree I'm working on and may know more than I'll give myself credit for. Contrarily, there's a complete idiot that sits two seats down from me, but rather than facts, he bases everything he says on what he's heard, he lacks the filter between his brain and mouth.....Goodnight.

Oh Lord, thats the best common sense ive heard in a long time! Don't you worry, you got the right attitude. Good for you, and congrats on your out spokeness. More like you are needed. Good luck in your endeavors.

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[Fish Hunter]

Fish hunter

It would only take one legitimate camera sighting to start a stir, but there are none.

 

If a trail cam can "out smart" a coyote, i'm sure cougars are no problem for them either. I doubt as though cougars have some special ability to avoid trail cameras. People in other parts of the country don't seem to have any trouble "catching' them on camera. Maybe because they actually have a population of cougars there? I obviously don't dispute the occasional cat passing through, but we do not have any sustainable populations of them in NYS. If we did, they would be on camera somewhere and hunters doing large drives and covering huge amounts of ground would have kicked one up at some point. Plenty of coyotes get flushed out by deer drives, a mtn lion wouldn't be an exception to that. 

Not saying that these animals are running rampant thru NYS whatsoever, but I do disagree with someone saying that no-way, no-how, ever/never have these been here. They've been here, and they WILL be seen again. 

[Dylan585]

Ok... Can anyone who has an experience with seeing a mountain lion that firmly believe was one, PM me and tell me exactly about it. Importance are: time of year, location, time of day, details of sighting, your credentials. I'm going to start doing a research project in this... Also if you have viable proof or evidence saying that they are not here PM me also

[ray koziatek]

Hey dawsencreek ,,thanks for your service..any scuttle butt as to winter kill last year as to deer population..start a new topic as to not rr this post

[Guppy35]

Can we stay on the topic of lions? I'd hate for this thread to get shut down similarly to the tributary forum bantering.

 

As an aside to all these claims of black mountain lions, I was going to wait but I guess I'm getting impatient. According to Missouri Department of Conservation, "Throughout its range, no melanistic (that means black) mountain lion has ever been documented by science". So if you hear a claim of people seeing a black lion, they saw either a large black house cat (I had one growing up that weighed over 20 pounds, he was obese though) or they saw a fisher, hell, maybe even a black bear. 

 

Now, in North America there are melanistic jaguars in the Southwest. Central and South America have these cats too. They are not a different species, they are no larger or smaller than a regular colored jaguar. They just have more of the pigment melanin. 

 

I did not want to comment on this subject really, as I hate debating with people. I could compare most debates with walking repeatedly into a brick wall, no progress is made. But, as I am hoping to have a career with one of the natural resource departments, I might as well get some practice informing people with facts rather than "wive's (wise) tales" . I make no claims to be an expert, a college degree doesn't mean I know what the hell I'm talking about, but I do take pride in the degree I'm working on and may know more than I'll give myself credit for. Contrarily, there's a complete idiot that sits two seats down from me, but rather than facts, he bases everything he says on what he's heard, he lacks the filter between his brain and mouth.....Goodnight.

 

 

I for one am very interested in hearing your take on the subject when you complete the topic in your class.  At least i will know that you won't be feeding us a bunch of BS.

 

As far as black lions, last year during gun season i was sitting for a morning hunt, and saw something up above me that was smal (low to the ground) and pure black.  My first instinct when i caught a glimpse of it at 50 yards away was "okay where the heck is this cubs mother at??"  But as it got through the brush and i was able to get a closer look at it, i realized it was a fisher.  First one i had ever seen in the woods so i wasn't expecting it to be a fisher.

 

I am no expert on any of these topics either, but as a lot of others have said on this thread, my opinion is that there is not a sustainable population of mountain lions in this area, but i wouldn't be surprised if someone saw one as it was "passing through" at some point.

[ray koziatek]

yes agreed guppy ,he could start his own forum....then he could be practicing his studies ,i could be his spelllll chack...... with 10000 members some good polling info is at his fingertips..their are some good experianced hunters on this site for feed back as to whAT IS SEEN IN THE WOODS opps..

[Fish Hunter]

I for one, would not mistake a fisher for anything other than a fisher, same with a fawn, adult deer, woodchuck, or a blue jay.

Maybe an alcoholic, dwarf, pregnant, juvinile, sasquatch with a case of the crabs..........now, I could understand that being a problematic visual to decipher........

[Sk8man]

Just as an aside, I have personally met and chatted with dawsonscreek and he is a serious committed student in a great conservation program here at the college in Canandaigua. I'm also confident that he may be much closer to the actual data there in that program than the rest of us might be so it might behoove us to listen with an open ear to what he is saying despite a lot of unsupported claims of sightings being offered by folks who may fully believe their heartfelt but unsubstantiated claims.

[camomanbg]

I researched this topic in pursuing my wildlife management degree and it was the topic of my final debate in an environmental politics class.  Think about it this way, the home range of one, that's right ONE singular mountain lion is roughly the size of the entire Adirondack Park.  Take away the infrastucture and development within the park and that area is even smaller.  They are very elusive and timid animals by nature, so they wouldn't tolerate living in such a confined space where contact with humans would happen so frequently.  Then you have the issue of there not being enough room for a breeding pair, and certainly not their offspring. You can also take in to consideration that mountain lions would greatly disrupt the natural checks and balances that our wildlife have now.  NYSDEC barely has enough money to function at it's current capacity, so the likelihood of them secretly stocking or even perpetuating the idea of mountain lion's in NY is ZERO.  Yes, that one that was killed in CT/NH/MA (wherever it was) did possibly slip through here and that's all that will ever happen in NY regarding mountain lions.  There might be a few cases of a captive one getting out or being released by irresponsible people but they won't be wild.  Just as the few wolves that have been shot in NY have been captive escapees or releases.  I normally don't even entertain the topic enough to argue but it's monday and I'd rather be deer hunting so replying to this is better than doing work.  

 

The answer to your question on shooting one is YES, mountain lion's do not live in NY state so they are not covered under the game laws.  So, go ahead and shoot it!  When you do you will find that it was captive at some point or in a crazy second chance scenario it will have been a wandering young male from somewhere far, far away.  I wouldn't put any money on you shooting a mountain lion though.  A picture on a friends phone is just that, most likely a picture from another state if it is even a real picture.  

Re-read my post folks!  Dawsonscreek, in a couple weeks may be able to shed some new light on the info.  If I really had to I could go to my storage unit and dig up my folders and actually cite all the peer review journals an scientific papers that I used in my research.  To elaborate a little more on the home range of the mountain lion.  The adirondack park itself is large enough to host a mountain lion or a couple but you need to look at the life history of these animals.  They are solitary and elusive, and choose to live away from human activity.  If you look at areas of the adirondack park that are contiguously "wilderness" (meaning no roads, houses, towns, etc) there are very few areas that are near the 350 sq. mi. that is the home range of a male lion.  The females can live in about half that land but those areas don't usually overlap (except during breeding season), so you would need roughly 500 sq. mi. of wilderness area for a breeding pair.  A male may tolerate some overlap of a females territory, maybe even multiple females. Nonetheless, they don't readily mix and live together.      

Yes, the possibility of one passing through is out there but unlikely.  An animal traveling from North Dakota to the NE region is such a fluke its unlikely to happen again.  As mentioned above, there will always be the animals bought on the black market and released when they get to be too much to deal with for the idiot that thought it would be cool to raise them.  Most of those people get busted by the authorities before the animals have a chance to get out or be released.  

 

I saw above someone ask the question about how do we think coyotes got here.....is that a real question?  Everyone that has this attitude that the NYSDEC is this big, secretive agency that does stuff behind the back of the general public are just ignorant or selfish.  They think the NYSDEC is doing harm based on their own personal opinion and they are too naive to look at the big picture.  The amount of red tape and bureaucracy that they have to go through to spend money or enact a project is staggering.  If you think they can pull of something like stocking new animals without it getting out, you need to step back and take a look at the big picture while keeping reality in mind.  They have enough trouble keeping the current programs running.    

 

For the record, I have seen a mountain lion..in Montana.  It followed us down the mountain after we watched two giant bull elk posture and intimidate each other in a clear cut until got dark and never got a shot.  Try walking backwards down a mountain in the dark for a mile and half!  It never got more than a few hundred yards from us, it was just eyes sneaking along through the blowdowns watching us the entire way back to the truck.  Most likely he was just protecting his hunting grounds from intruders.

[Guppy35]

Just curious, does anyone know what the average life span of a mountain lion is?

[Sea-IV]

Well I would say that all depends on their enviroment. Mature animals in the wild can live 8-13 years without any human interaction. These are not small animals either so mistaken identity should be unlikely. Here is a pic from a friend out west.

[Big Water]

I'll have to admit I'm extremely skeptical. When I moved into my house which abuts hundreds of square miles of woods a local guy said he had thought he had seen a mountain lion but wouldn't swear on a stack of Bibles. He was a retired executive from a local company who made daily walks up the road and around trails through the woods so he was used to seeing bobcats coyotes and the like. He stopped me one day to tell me that he had seen a mountain lion without doubt. He claimed to be a walking up the road to the trails and it was standing about 30 yards in front of him alongside the road. He said he had clear vision of it for quite sometime. That's the single situation that puts a question In my mind.

[pro-fish-n-c]

I used to work for the NYSDEC at the wildlife pathology lab in delmar. We saw all kinds of animals from all over the state. The general opinion at the time of the state wildlife pathologist, and the other biologists, was that no viable population of mountain lions in New York. Any spotted would be an escapee or possibly an animal from out west , like the South Dakota lion.

In my opinion it's quite possible to see an escaped lion, way more people then you think have illegally kept animals, everything from primates, to exotic cats, to whitetails.

Also, I wanted to add that I have seen a 65lb coyote , weighed on a legitimate scale, in person. I have never heard of one larger then 70lbs though.

[Total Chaos]

Again, here's an animal that's so reclusive that nobody can get a trail cam picture, yet there's at least 10 replys on here from people who have seen one??????????????? What's wrong with that picture. Most guys are running cameras at least 6 months out of the year and 24hrs a day. I run 8 cameras myself in what I would consider good cat country (because I too have been out west to Idaho and have seen a Lion and the terrain they like) and I have pics of everything except a MT Lion and a Bobcat. You expect me to believe that a person has better odds of seeing one then a trail cam? Not likely. This is a good debate though.

Total Chaos