DEC e-mail FWD to me today.

[BSmaster]

I did not recieve this diectly so I can not vouch for the accuracy.

 

From: Phillips, Frank J (DEC) [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2015 3:16 PM
To: Phillips, Frank J (DEC)
Subject: Deer Management changes ???

 

Dear Instructors and other sportsmen and women;

 

There are currently a lot of rumors going around about possible changes to deer seasons this coming fall, and in particular, the widespread implementation of mandatory antler restrictions (ARs). 

 

As with most rumors, there is a grain of truth somewhere, but there are a lot of inaccuracies and almost panic going around right now.  Please take a minute to read the following. 

 

This is really what’s going on:

-         Cornell recently sent a survey to 7k hunters to find out what they VALUE when it comes to deer hunting (eg; seeing lots of bucks, seeing larger antlers, the freedom to shoot a buck of their choice, etc).

-         The state will be broken down into just a few broad geographic areas, and survey results will be evaluated to determine what hunters value in each separate area.

-         Not all deer hunters were surveyed; sending a survey to 7k random big game hunters provides statistically significant results.

-         We do NOT yet have the results of this survey, but when we do…

-         Based on what the majority of hunters value in each separate area, we can tailor one of several different buck harvest strategies to each separate area to maximize hunter satisfaction.

-         Management strategies include:

 

1.     doing nothing different;

or

2.     the active promotion of voluntary antler restrictions;

or

3.     a shorter Regular Firearms season (shorten by one week in the Southern Zone, and two weeks in the Northern Zone);

or

4.     a 1-buck bag limit;

or

5.     mandatory antler restrictions all of bow season through the 1^st week of Regular Firearms Season;

or

6.     mandatory antler restrictions all seasons.

 

-         While it is possible we may see some changes by this fall, time is running short to do that.

 

For more information, I suggest you turn to our web site:

http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/7211.html

 

 

 

Frank Phillips

Regional Coordinator,

Sportsman Education Program

6274 E. Avon-Lima Rd

Avon NY 14414-9516

e-mail: [email protected]

Website: www.DEC.NY.gov

Class Listings: http://www.register-ed.com/programs/new_york

 

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.

Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

-           not from B. Franklin, but non-the-less valid.

 

“I just care deeply about certain things, and I am not bashful about expressing my thoughts.

Some are intimidated, some are offended, but none are left in doubt.â€

J. Pully

[BarringtonTrapper]

Did they just realize the numbers are down?

[BarringtonTrapper]

I would like to see a much shorter season with no antler restrictions, the last time I ate antler I broke a tooth. If they should force antler restrictions down my throat then I will lease my land out and shoot deer on the nussiance permit .

[FishingSkrip27]

Barrington Trapper...Nussiance permits are the problem with this state. Some farmers shoot 50 or more deer in 1 year...then people **** because they don't see deer. This state is nuts to not to have an antler restriction. Everyone shoots tiny little bucks and then complain because they don't see big bucks. Instead of Nussiance permits they should just issue hunters more tags for does. Let the little bucks live and then we can have a state like Illinois or Ohio. An average buck in this state is 1-1/2 years old.....which is ridiculous. They need restrictions on all bucks, Button bucks included. We need more big buck hunters in this state....It would  change the deer population so much and more people would see deer and enjoy the time in the woods. Instead of everyone shooting the first little brown deer that walks by...for 20lbs of finished meat. 

[Sean Youngblood]

I favor the antler restrictions( except for youth hunters)were I hunt restrictions have been in place for a couple of years and I am starting to see the difference.

[bondouley]

Im also in favor of antler restrictions.

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[jayjay]

I'm favor of restrictions except for youths.We have the genetics to produce big bucks,however they don't reach thier potential when shot at 1 1/2 y.o. I would rather see "earn a buck " program .Makig a person shoot a doe first in order to shoot a buck.This would satisfy thise who want meat and help get the buck to doe ratio closer to 2 t 1.The we will see bucks more ,because they will be establishing breeding rights,more spsparing/fighting,making and checking scrapes..We have been doing this on my land for 3 years and are seeing the results,now if i can fet my neighbors on board it will improve vastly.Just my opinion....

[Dominic100#]

Ok I will disagree. I hunt the ADK. No way in hell should we have AR. We work hard to get the Bucks we get. A spike is just as rewarding as a 10. We are hunting remote areas; we drive deer to each other.Stop killing does and 3 bucks a year. Kill 1 buck a year (bow,gun or muzzle loader). Also a shorter season would be good for the ADK. Once the heavy snow starts the deer hit the migratory runways and it's like shooting fish in a barrel. No sport in it if you ask me but that's just my opinion. I am not a trophy Hunter I never had an antler I like eating.

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[BarringtonTrapper]

Im not trying to start trouble, I see several are in favor of AR but I have a question, are you a landowner?

[Dominic100#]

Yes I am. In the "southern zone" I only hunt it thanksgiving morning and muzzle loader.

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[Hookedup]

We sure as heck don't need any program that makes you shoot a doe before a buck. Many areas have no deer! Need to have less doe tags and a one buck limit. Some areas should have no doe tags or deer taken for awhile.

[BSmaster]

Trophy hunter mentality is aligned with restrictions.

Venison hunter mentality is aligned with choice.

 

I saw two 4pts from my stand (same time) this bow season.  1 was almost twice the size of the other.  Blanket restrictions are stupid only that it opens the flood gates to let big brother in.  No restrictions and education is best.  Educate then repeat.  The old dogs that refuse to learn new tricks will fade away and the new generation will have a fresh set of ideas.  And for all of the modern thinkers that believe letting all of the small racks go is part QDM than you need to read up on that a bit more too.  It takes years of accurate culling to get the healthy herds to where they need to be besides all of the nutrition.  Can it be done.  Yes.  Should you encourage it in your area?  Sure.  But if someone tells my 70yr old mother she can't shoot a spike, I will be irate.  BTW, she wouldn't but that is her choice and should remain that way.

 

my 2 pennies,

Joe

[Chas0218]

I'm in favor for it and my family and I have several pieces of property that our family hunts. I can't stand the guys that brag about shooting small bucks but pass up 10 doe then say they are meat hunters. If you are a meat hunter you don't pass up any opportunities so don't kid yourselves.

 

Our family has always practiced AR on our property.  We lease the majority of our property and allowed to hunt using nuisance permits just don't because we like having deer on our property and taking care of a deer in the summer sucks.  I have a friend that shoots deer all summer long on nuisance permits very close to Barrington Cellars.  He likes it but says it is a total PITA taking care of the deer.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Chas0218

[iceman05]

I'm not for MANDATORY AR and here's why.

1. For the guy who hunts state land with the Orange army, any deer taken is a trophy. Why continue to hunt when in most areas in the Southern tier you get no doe permits and now you have to wait for certain number of points. Why pay $100 and not be able to shoot anything. Might as well get a SAMs club membership for that money.

2. In talking with guys from Pa. They all say instead of someone shooting a spike they shoot a 1 1/2 six point ...the deer was able to grow but was harvested way below its potential because he met the requirement. So it's a wash

3. I have a 3 friends who all started hunting in their late 20s. Two of them hunted with trophy hunters...for two years they saw plenty of little bucks but weren't allowed to shoot due not outside the ears....well they never shot and now they no longer hunt due to loss of interest.

4. I feel the tradition of hunting is lost and this is whole debate is fueled by the glamour of TV hunting shows. Where they are not hunting to put food on the table and share memories. Simply shoot for the rack and donate the venison. However uncle Ted still shoots whatever and I like that.

5.AR are like the safe act....did 7bullets instead of 8 make anyone safer......is a small six point better than a big 4pt.

With all that being said I don't shoot a buck smaller than my biggest one so if my biggest buck was a 6pt I no longer shoot 4pts. I think the state has more than enough rules and if someone wants to trophy hunt do it and if someone wants to shoot whatever a trophy to them is do it.

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[Chas0218]

I'm not for MANDATORY AR and here's why.

2. In talking with guys from Pa. They all say instead of someone shooting a spike they shoot a 1 1/2 six point ...the deer was able to grow but was harvested way below its potential because he met the requirement. So it's a wash

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That's funny because I have several friends that live and hunt in PA and say just the opposite.  There are more 120" 8 points walking around than they can count and don't bother shooting them because that is the run of the mill sized bucks in their area. They also hunt private property bordering state land.

 

After 1 year of people not shooting the spikes/ 4 points there will be just as many if not more bucks running around.  The guys mentioned above said it was harder hunting for most in PA when the AR came thru because a lot of people shot everything they saw and the bucks that made it generally were only button bucks. So it took 2 years before they were seeing legal deer on their property.

[iceman05]

Chas0218.....I as well friends that hunt pa....they don't see a change....now last year for my 30th bday my wife bought me a hunt at an outfitter in Ohio....there was 5 guys from pa so I asked how ARs were working....their response is why do you think we are paying to hunt Ohio....not say I'm right or your wrong but that's the response i got about ARs.......I'd like to see honest answers from wmu 3 and 4 on how AR impacted area.

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[justtracytrolling]

Barrington Trapper...Nussiance permits are the problem with this state. Some farmers shoot 50 or more deer in 1 year...then people **** because they don't see deer. This state is nuts to not to have an antler restriction. Everyone shoots tiny little bucks and then complain because they don't see big bucks. Instead of Nussiance permits they should just issue hunters more tags for does. Let the little bucks live and then we can have a state like Illinois or Ohio. An average buck in this state is 1-1/2 years old.....which is ridiculous. They need restrictions on all bucks, Button bucks included. We need more big buck hunters in this state....It would  change the deer population so much and more people would see deer and enjoy the time in the woods. Instead of everyone shooting the first little brown deer that walks by...for 20lbs of finished meat.

If you had a farm with serious crop damage that took money out of your pocket you might think differently on the subject of nuisance permits. In most cases the deer that do the damage dont "live" right on the farm with the problems. The deer travel at night to destroy thousands of dollars of crops and the only way to stop it is thru nuisance permits. The deer simply arent huntable during the daylight.

Edited January 27, 2015 by justtracytrolling

[justtracytrolling]

I'm in favor for it and my family and I have several pieces of property that our family hunts. I can't stand the guys that brag about shooting small bucks but pass up 10 doe then say they are meat hunters. If you are a meat hunter you don't pass up any opportunities so don't kid yourselves.

 

Our family has always practiced AR on our property.  We lease the majority of our property and allowed to hunt using nuisance permits just don't because we like having deer on our property and taking care of a deer in the summer sucks.  I have a friend that shoots deer all summer long on nuisance permits very close to Barrington Cellars.  He likes it but says it is a total PITA taking care of the deer.

In the area I grew up in meat hunting was shooting buck and NOT does. I dont subscribe to this notion any longer, but I was taught that if you shot does there would be no deer to hunt. Plenty of hunters still hunt this way in my area, but it is changing. I think with patience the quality of bucks will improve, but we dont need manatory AR's. Joe has it right...it should be a sportsmans choice.

[GAMBLER]

I'm a meat hunter that does not hunt much (couple days per season).  I hate antler restrictions.  I pay the money for my tag, I should be able to fill it with what I want to take home for the freezer. 

[Nautitroller]

For our government to tell us what we can and cannot shoot is just another step towards controlling land owners and hunters. Let the hunter and land owners decide, I know of quite a few groups that are trying to let their bucks get to an older age class, good for them... I own a piece of land and truly I would like to see older age class bucks too, I allow anyone that hunts there to shoot what they want. I know that we do have many older bucks all over NY but these deer have learned our patterns and become difficult to kill if not impossible due to being on posted land or nocturnal. If the DEC implements AR its an infringement on our rights to choose the way we want to manage our land. That I am against.

As for the guys hunting state land, I have access to hundreds of acres of great private land, I choose to bow hunt on state because there are some true monster bucks there. Just have to do your homework scouting.

If you really want to make a difference in the deer herd make each hunter shoot a coyote before they are issued a deer tag...

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[DJ 17]

Like with most things MODERATION is probably at the root of the solution.  Take only what your family can use, and don't waste anything for the sake of killing an animal.  I implement my own antler restrictions but they can not be an across the board ultimatum for everyone.  Deer grow in too many wondrous configurations to make a blanket statement.  Quick example: 2 years ago I was hunting a Huge 6 point.  If I was unable to harvest this animal if given a chance that would be incredibly wrong in my opinion.  Someone from the neighboring property shot it opening day of gun season and it was at least a 4 1/2 yr old animal and it weighed 207# in mid November.  Its G2's were over 14" long.  Is that not a "QUALITY" deer? 

 

While I can understand the need for nuisance permits in some cases they are definitely being abused!  There is someone near me that has around 60 permits and just shoots the deer and leaves them where they lay.  The warden is after them but with only 2 officers for the entire county that is a tall order to fill.

 

Work together with those around you.  We could use less gov't interference, not encourage more!  For example:  SAFE ACT

[Sean Youngblood]

I am with Nautitroller.I have 45 acres of private land to hunt but choose to hunt public land because  the quality of deer is better.I guess it all matters where you hunt.I am lucky to live in an area with an abundance of deer.I easily passed on over 30 bucks probably close to 50 So to me it is no big deal to let a 6 point walk by or even small 8.But I don't think I passed on many more Does than that.I think it was pretty close to 1 to 1 ratio where I was hunting. 

[Phisherman585]

I am ALL about shooting big bucks but antler restrictions are absolutely NOT the awnser!!! All antler restrictions do is select superior genetics to get shot first. Year and a half 8pts will be targeted bc they meet the criteria when in fact those are the bucks that need to be passed! What needs to happen is we need a shorter gun season and honestly I would be ok with 1 buck tag (I know I'm in the minority on that one). Most importantly we need educated hunters!! We need hunters who are willing to learn to do there best at aging deer and have the ability to pass those 1.5 year and 2.5s even if it's a nice 8pt. I think 3.5 is a good goal for a seasoned hunter if not 4.5. Antler restrictions will not have the effect people think it will.

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[Frogger]

Boy what a topic. I'm a believer of the one buck rule as well, kind of hard to have a system as mentioned earlier that hones in on taking out a good breed of yearlings that the AR program would do. We need adult bucks, 2 1/2 yr olds or older. We need does to be in check, in most areas. Areas that are seeing a 1 -1 doe to buck ratio is not reflective of the actual states herd. Im not saying your wrong I'm just saying your lucky to have a tract with that going on. Right about now is when you get called to the carpet for being a trophy hunter and that anyone should be able to shoot a deer to feed there family....... Yep and I agree. Shoot all the does you want, no problem. If your area is high in deer population where you see 50 deer a day on the stand, should be no problem. Feed your family. But your only going to be allowed 1, that's right 1 buck. This is where we have a hard time accepting. Seems a lot of people don't want to give that up, so we continue to spiral........ Regarding the nuisance permits.... If your a landowner that leaves the corn up the entire season, sorry no permits. You don't allow hunting on your property other than your good ole boy buddies? Sorry no permits. With the guys that live up in the AD, you've got it rough up there, and yes you would be hit the hardest at first truly because you are lacking up there. But after a couple of years I feel you could grow some healthy pops. I sure wish we would follow suit with some other states, we so seem to be behind the times.

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[iceman05]

Two thoughts this past year I shot my buck on October 5th so what did I do beside trophy doe hunt...I fished more and got back to small game hunting . I think one buck rule would be fine and most would hunt something else to fill time.

Second everyone likes Ohio's system and not to get off topic but Ohio also runs feeder and mineral stations would everyone object to that to help grow big bucks and help the population ?

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