DEC e-mail FWD to me today.

[Gator]

In my mind, it's not about what I want personally, but what's best for the ecosystem. Having said that, I'm not well versed in the literature and I have no idea of the effect of AR on buck/doe ratios, population genetics and sustainability. I'm going to hazard a guess that local opinions are influenced more by practices in surrounding areas (food plots, cover, nuisance permits) than management strategies, so I would tend to give more weight to controlled long-term studies over a larger area than individual cases.

 

One thing that somebody mentioned above does resonate with me, though. I think that hunters have moved toward voluntary AR over the past decade. TV? Aging hunting population? Whatever the reason, if you move to demand AR, then suddenly you put undue pressure on the deer that mature more rapidly, taking them out of the genetic pool. And maybe Joe Average hunter feels like the AR takes the place of making a personal judgement on what constitutes a "shooter". 

 

All in all, I try to encourage letting the little guys walk, but I prefer people being able to make their own choices, so long as there's not a scientifically valid reason to do otherwise.

[rabhunt]

I have been hunting PA for over 20 yrs, and the deer have gone from nearly starved animals to good to great trophy animals. I hunt 3 farms that are open to anyone who asks and rarely see more than 1 other hunters all of opening day. I have shot some of my best bucks there and love the AR. As far as NY goes, I hunt similar land, saw no other hunters but my buddy through the entire bow season, and only a few others during gun. Most of the guys that I hear complaining hunt 1 or 2 days and then judge the whole states herd number. Sorry but I spent well over 100 hrs in the stand during bow and half as many during gun. I passed over 25 small bucks during bow and had great season.

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[Guppy35]

I think antler restrictions should come from within each hunting group, IF they choose to do so.  As someone stated earlier, there are trophy hunters, and there are meat hunters.  However, regardless of whether you are a trophy hunter or a meat hunter, we all pay the same price for the tags we receive.  If there is a MANDATORY antler restriction, it will increase the average size and age of harvested bucks in NY, but will decrease a "meat hunter's" chance to harvest a deer.  If you do antler restrictions within your own hunting group, those interested in trophy bucks, will see improvement (if they have the necessary acreage and nutrition for that to happen), but someone interested in just putting venison in the freezer will not be affected by it.

 

Justin has a great point about nuissance permits, from a hunters perspective it's disappointing to see so many deer taken every year because we all know it means we're going to see less in the woods.  But from a farmers perspective, it is important to be able to get the best harvest they can every year (and if that means shooting multiple deer, you can bet they won't have a problem doing it).  Although when sitting in my treestand on the edge of a cornfield i sometimes think that farmers should get damage permits for squirrels and raccoons instead of deer

 

My family and small hunting group have done QDM on our land over the past 8-10 years now, and it can be very successful.  We don't shoot anything smaller than an 8 point (unless it's a youth hunter, or first time hunter).  Here are just a handful of bucks that we've harvested over the last 10 years.

 

   

 

     

 

 

 

[Legacy]

No matter what my beliefs are on the subject (and I am certainly willing to share them all you have to do is ask, lol)... the last thing we need in this state is more laws, more regulations, and more government. The best chance we have to change the quality of hunting is through education. No matter if its ARs or nuisance permits or meat hunting. No matter what side of the issue you are on, it is important to educate yourself and others of the opposing views. 

I have friends in my circle on both sides of all of the "issues". Farmers, youth, meat hunters, trophy hunters, buck only, gun hunters, traditionalists, bow only. Do i agree with their way of thinking? Not always. Are any of them wrong? Absolutely not. I hear it all the time from them and they all have valid points. I am for legislation that promotes hunting. Wake me up when NYS starts to do that.

[chasdc1]

Hunted private land in Spencerport area.

Saw a decent size 4pt opening day--let it pass and it was the last buck the three of us saw all season.

Happily took 3 does and filled the freezer--lots of DMPs for 8A.

Don't know where the other bucks were--maybe in the park--maybe not.

Would like to see that 4pt grow up over the next couple of years and become a bruiser.

[Phisherman585]

One thing I really think the DEC does have to do is take a good hard look at there WMU's. I think some of them need to be reworked and made into new ones. Some WMU's encompass areas of high deer density and low deer densitys yet they are managed the same. Take for instance 8N for years now this unit has been high, high for doe tags and that's right on for areas of it like the honeoye area and down but a good portion if not all of the Candice and hemlock state lands are in there unit too. Those areas do not have nearly the deer populations as there is in honeoye and south of honeoye yet they are managed the same. I think we could find many more units that have this same problem. Whether it's making units smaller or just reworking where the borders are something has to be done.

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[justtracytrolling]

No matter what my beliefs are on the subject (and I am certainly willing to share them all you have to do is ask, lol)... the last thing we need in this state is more laws, more regulations, and more government. The best chance we have to change the quality of hunting is through education. No matter if its ARs or nuisance permits or meat hunting. No matter what side of the issue you are on, it is important to educate yourself and others of the opposing views. 

I have friends in my circle on both sides of all of the "issues". Farmers, youth, meat hunters, trophy hunters, buck only, gun hunters, traditionalists, bow only. Do i agree with their way of thinking? Not always. Are any of them wrong? Absolutely not. I hear it all the time from them and they all have valid points. I am for legislation that promotes hunting. Wake me up when NYS starts to do that.

I couldnt agree more! Too many of us think in terms of what suits our needs and not what is best for everyone. Hunt your own hunt!

[Gill-T]

An unfortunate occurrence with antler restrictions will be some waste. A hunter who thought he was shooting an eight pointer only to find the deer had no brow tines will leave the dead deer rather than face a fine (just an example). I have witnessed this play out on QDM managed properties where fines were levied to members shooting "subpar" bucks. The best plan continues to be voluntary QDM with verbal agreements between adjacent landowners if possible. Agreed we don't need anymore rules levied by the state.

[Fish Hunter]

I have mixed thoughts on this topic.

[bettieanne]

Hello, bs are you a hunter safety course instructor? Do you kno what is involved to become one? I am considering to become an instructor, it seems to be a shortage of classes available and the next generation ( us middle age )  is going to have to step it up for our future generations and I would love to be able to provide that for our future generations. thanks, joe

[BSmaster]

Joe,

I am not an instructor but i think being one is very important.  Your insights for the next generation will be imposed on these young impressionable minds.  If you make valid points, they will be able to form their own opinions even after they are removed from your class and return to the "different" ideas of their clan.  I found this on the DEC sight.  All I know about it is that it takes some time.  Thank you, Joe

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/9189.html

 

Good luck

[High Bidder]

I haven't noticed much of a difference on my land in PA with the AR because of the practically unlimited antlerless permits. I can't patrol my land every day because I live 3 hrs away. When I leave my land the neighbors shoot every antlerless deer they can which includes most of the button bucks. I think AR is a noble idea but due to the fact that more antlerless deer have to be shot to balance the numbers the habitat can sustain it doesn't work well in the long run. More and bigger bucks means less doe. Thus after a while the deer numbers drop and you might get a bigger buck but you chances also drop.

[Chas0218]

Antler restrictions seem like a give-me, I mean there are size and quantity restrictions on most fish species. There is more land than water and deer aren't stocked why not put regs on deer too?

Edited January 30, 2015 by Chas0218

[pro-fish-n-c]

I feel one buck only for the entire season archery/regular/muzzle would work well where I hunt. People would be more selective before nailing the dumb spikehorn if they knew it was there only buck for the season. I also feel the amount of improperly tagged or taken deer is outrageous, but that's a different matter, and just my opinion.

[Frogger]

You know what would be interesting, not that it would remove argument or change opinion, but if someone could run a poll on here that would identify -#of deer you harvested, fun loving of each, size of rack(points) harvested, size of rack passed by, statically you could get a high level of sense of how many bucks would of made it to next season based on a 1 buck rule vs AR just with a smaller pool of us. For instance you passed on a 6pnter and shot two 8's one with bow one with gun, AR allowed the 6 Pntr to walk but two out of the three were harvested. 1 buck rule would of allowed 1 out of 3 to be harvested. Just an example though.

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[Fish Hunter]

Antler restrictions seem like a give-me, I mean there are size and quantity restrictions on most fish species. There is more land than water and deer aren't stocked why not put regs on deer too?

That is a good way to look at that.

[GAMBLER]

Fish can be released.  I have yet to see a deer that did too well after being shot and released.  I don't think we are comparing apples to apples here. 

Edited January 30, 2015 by GAMBLER

[momay4000]

Fish can be released.  I have yet to see a deer that did too well after being shot and released.  I don't think we are comparing apples to apples here. 

 

Absolutely perfect response to Chas's topic from Gambler. You are comparing apples to oranges my friend and Gambler is spot on.

 

Educate yourself, use restraint and QDM practices on the lands that you hunt, but don't penalize those hunters that want to take a deer that they can legally harvest. And please, please, please don't let there be more NYS laws and restictions to accomplish this.

 

Just my opinion,

 

Chris

[slow rollin]

All for AR. I love hearing the landowners whine about crop damage. The farmer who owns the property that joins mine crys all the time about crop damage.He also leases his 300 acres for big $ (without claiming the income I might add) to 3 guys who only shoot trophy's then cries about crop damage. I told him if you don't want ARs on your property let the public hunt it!

!

[Frogger]

Slow A, I'd take a guess he filed for or has already a nuisance permit as well for those three guys...... Ugggg

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[thumbburn]

Shorten the gun season ..... PERIOD!!!!

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[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Shorten the gun season ..... PERIOD!!!!

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This is a start of the answer. Late in the long, long, gun season there is more and more driving(which scares and infuriates landowners) and many buttons get shot as does. A yearling which gets passed in early bow gets shot in late gun in most cases. Many NY hunters are traveling to OH, just look at what they are doing. 1 buck, shorter gun season.

This is only the beginning. The truth is the "dirty little secret" is destroying NY as a quality deer state. Many hunters in all zones are harvesting multiple bucks with others tags. We arent seeing enough enforcement now, so I dont know how any new regs will be enforced other than the season length.

Good post, good debate. I think in many areas they are issuing too many doe permits yet in others all the permits in the world wont matter because of posted land.

[reeltime]

i grew up in Pa, been hunting there since 77,  as with any state anywhere you will never appease all hunters. you will NEVER satisfy everyone as they all have their own standards and means of hunting.

 

the changes in deer hunting views has been dramatically changed in the last 30 years, back when I started hunting there were WAY too many deer in pa. you shot the first legal buck that walked by,,,,, but you may of seen 50-100 doe before you killed a buck. the woods and farmers fields were decimated from over browsing, deer HAD to move daily to search for what scraps of food there was.

Doe season was viewed as taboo, doe season was 1 day, tags were few and far between and a lottery.  many tags were bought and burnt, land open to hunting were posted no doe hunting. if someone shot a 100 inch 8 or 10 point it made the paper and your driveway was packed with onlookers.

 

then came the hunting shows on espn, then the outdoor channel, deer hunting video's etc... people came to realize that if you passed up the 1.5 year old bucks they would grow some nice headgear,  a lot of the old wives tales of once a spike always a spike were being proven false.

 

 where am I going with this?  well i guess my views are this,  while back in the day the influx of shows, tapes etc. was a good educational tool and got things rolling in the right direction I think that it has reached a point that it has now pushed a lot of people over the edge and now people ( not all ) are so obsessed with antler size and scores to the point of even before they congratulate someone for shooting a buck the first question is what did it score?  the antler obsession has been the downfall of many friendships and even family relationships. it has also been the fuel to the fire of leasing and posting ( although slob actions and liability are a bigger reason for posting)

 

in the almost 40 years i have hunted pa I have seen radical changes, when they implemented AR's in early 2000's they saturated the antlerless tag allocations, the antlerless slaughter that happened was unreal more than anyone has ever seen around here. when that started it needed to happen to a certain degree but in many area's it went WAY too far. maybe it needed to go that far to allow for habitat regeneration at a faster rate, but I do know it upset a lot of people.  some people took matters into their own hands and yellow posters went up at an alarming rate. but I can tell you it has certainly helped the habitat recover.

 

since then things have sorta stabilized and the hunting has been good, yes there are area's that the deer numbers are low, yes there are area's the deer numbers are good, yes there are area's that have good bucks as well as area's that good bucks are few and far between simply because the habitat doesn't support the nutritional values needed to help produce a decent rack.  all one has to do is look at the hunting pa site and you will see the same issues, those for it those against it, those that say the deer herd is fine, and those that say the deer are almost extinct.

 

my views on deer hunting here in NY are that myself personally AR's wont affect me as I already have my standards of what buck i will shoot, i KNOW that AR's will not provide a monster buck behind every tree, I KNOW they do help, what people forget or don't realize is that there is a vast difference in survival skills of a whitetail deer each year and season that passes.  hunting a mature 3.5+ yo buck is far more difficult than hunting a 1.5 yo. buck.

Do I think the state should tell people what they can shoot?  ummmm  the state ALREADY does tell you what buck you can shoot, 3" or more spike or 2 or more points on a side qualifies you to put a buck tag on that deer, if it doesn't then the antlerless tag must be used ( if you have one, if not you better know what your shooting first to make sure its legal)

 

so as Chas said the state does already tell you what you can shoot., comparing releasing fish to hunting is apples to oranges, while yes a fish can be released, unless your sight fishing you don't know the species or size before you get a bite, with deer hunting, turkey hunting, duck hunting or whatever its called target identification BEFORE you shoot.

 

i guess what I would like to see is a 2 week modern firearm season bucks only.  maybe a 3 day fri, sat, sun antlerless season with a 1 buck limit and a 2 doe limit without any tags being able to be signed over along with the current archery season and a 1 week primitive black powder season. 

 

having the concurrent season allows people to be legally in the woods once they filled their buck tag so they can fill someone elses buck tag. they have a doe tag and doe is in but they can shoot a buck call their buddy to come tag it, most of them i would venture to guess fill their tag first.  Are we gonna stop the poaching? no, those that disregard the law will disregard it no matter what the law is, the only way to slow down the poaching and party tagging is catching them, they are being caught but with the lack of encon officers to cover vast square miles of land it makes it pretty easy to get away with poaching. The tippdec line has been helping but there is still the fact that there are only so many encon officers to cover all the calls.  This is where WE as sportsman can make a difference, if you know its going on call tippdec, or if its happening within your group peer pressure can be a motivator, or simply choose different hunting partners.

 

another thing they could do is make the fines a level that would be a financial hardship if your caught, the current fines are no deterrent to just about anyone, you make the fines for poaching a deer whether a buck/doe or fawn 5 or 10 grand you will get peoples attention!  raise the revocations to 5 years first offense lifetime for second and I bet you would see a huge drop in the current games people play! 

 

 

S.P.O.R.T  Sportsman Policing Our Ranks Together.

[PeltHunter]

I think that something like a two year antler restriction would be good for the first couple years of having a 1 buck limit. Add with it maybe one or two doe permits per hunter for those years to get the doe population back up in some areas. 2 years 3 points on one side then some of those bucks grow bigger. After that shoot what you want but there would be more 2.5 and older bucks around. This way people on both sides of the ball win. "Trophy" guys get larger antlered buck "meat hunters" get to shoot what they want but there will be larger bodied bucks around to shoot. Kind of a complex way of doing it but I think it could make a big difference and keep everyone happy.

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