State of Lake Meetings Scheduled!

[Legacy]

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[Patriot]

You guys are all delusional if you think the DEC actually cares. There a a few who do, but the rest are robots to the government. This is NY people. Democratic/Liberal to the bone! It's all about taking care of NYC. Not a multi-million dollar fishery.

 

The "old timers" have given up on them, and trust nothing they present. These guys aren't stupid! They are just sick of not being listened to. Lets see a guy spending 100+ days a year on the water versus a biologist? Hmmmm

 

The lack of Captains and Lake guys at these meetings is speaking volumes also. These new age stream guys are, and will be, taking over. BS about this being a 12 month fishery, and everyone hail the Steelhead. The Salmon brings a ROI better than all of the other species combined. Yet, these "biologist" feel it necessary to almost double LT stockings rather than putting in more Salmon. Take the lake fishing (May-September), and the month and a half of Salmon season in the tribs and that topples any steelhead revenue.

 

You want to start scaring these stream guys? The Finger lakes see a lot of natural reproduction in their streams, and this leads to stream closings to help protect that process. If we are seeing a 50% Natural reproduction (more BS I think we are being fed) then maybe we need to close down the Rivers and Streams on the South shore to protect this.

Yankee is right. You're not going to get everybody to write down everything they caught. It would be impossible. I do it for my own records but I'm sure most people don't.

The statistics the DEC comes up with are just like the utility co. does with my electric bill during the winter months, "average". Another impossible task to count every fish caught. Any natural reproduction IS a bonus but I hope the DEC doesn't count that with the total stocking

[jason]

Yeah I'm not a big believer of 50% natural reproduction either. To many shall bottom creeks and rivers. To many guys walking through the rivers and creeks. But if we all don't band together our lake fishing going to go down hill in a hurry.

[RUNNIN REBEL]

Brian that is a very good turn out for this meeting, what percentage you figure was stream fishing interests ?

 

"Debbie Downer".....HA , Try witnessing an Intelligent conversation with an environmentalist at one of these meetings Rick .......And you will see the future of this state.

Two observations that held true from those early DEC-Bruce Schupp years meetings was:

1...DEC always said to never go start a business dependant on their stocking/management of this fishery... QUOTE " It is a put and take Fishery"

2... FOLLOW THE MONEY or lack of it with anything budgeted by the government (especially N.Y.State) If the state can show a 100 K savings or cut back in a reported budget,THEY WILL (even though in reality it cost the state over 1 million +++ in tourist/spending INCOME dollars). Then turn around and announce that 100 K savings will be put towards an entitlement project..............

 

Jerry

[finsntins]

we went to the meeting and this was our first and being fairly new to fishing the lake we did more listening then asking cause alot of what was being discussed was a bit over my head,but when joann???i think was her name,she has to do with the fish surveys for the eastern basin was done speaking,i thought this would be a good time to ask about "daily log book" that lake fisherman could turn into the dec via the internet that would give them more feed back than just there 6 or 7 survey boats.she didnt want to really answer the question,so the guy who seemed to be running the show,steve something????stood up and was quick to say that they are happy with the boat surveys,the state has spent alot of money to start the program and pretty much has to stick with it.she then added that there would be no added bonus to start a "diary book" and that the info they get from there survey boats supply enough info for what they need.this then got brought up again after the break and steve said that they did a "diary book" back in the 90's and there was no added benefit and agian said there hands are tied,they cant do anything else cause they have invested so much money in the survey program they already have in place.someone brought up about going to fish cleaning stations to get a count of fish and do their scale and snout samples,this also was shot down pretty quick.couple other things that i found interesting was they say that pen reared fish have 2 to 1 survival rate compared to lake stocked fish.they said they have one more year of data to look at and then maybe start to look at doing more pen rearing.also,that 4 out of the last 6 years they have found atlantic salmon are naturally reproducing in the salmon river.if i got anything mixed up and someone was there,please correct me.

[KING ME]

like i stated three pages ago ...broken record. "hands tied" no money data for us not needed .......

I agree that the "trib" fisherman voices are heard alot more than "lake" fisherman....but there are some self inflicted reasons for this. Not saying the only reason but a part of it . Go to these meetings and "trib" fisherman are bonded,grouped,organized. They tend to not "put down" the dec. "trib." guys approach the dec in NUMBERS, ORGANIZED, and with a "what can we do to help" approach ,,,,,then they get alittle "reward" here and there for their voice. 

Alot of lake guys are not gonna like it but its approach that "lake" fisherman need to take. slamming the dec, screaming,yelling, asking for a million different things at once just don't work. Fight battles, win one at a time to win a war. Wanting, wishing, demanding 10 different things at once will only fall on deaf ears. 

 Jerry you know what i'm saying.

[KING ME]

Yankee-

 lake trout fishing will no longer be referenced as 'farming" or anything else along them lines I think we should now call it "government subsidized fishing "

[A-TOM-MIK]

The political aspect of the entire operation will always leave skepticism, sure they don't know all the answers and sure there may be better ways to do this or that. I become a bit more involved in the "bio-process" each year and learn more about whats going on the more I go out of my way to stay in touch (which is tough as their agenda doesn't seem to put into the social medias that many of us are into). But if we look we can in fact find out what the bio's are saying and doing. To believe them or not to is up to each of us to decipher. I have my opinions as many of us do, but to stay involved is in all of our best interest, especially those who depend on our fishery to sustain in life.

I know one thing and nobody can legitimately make a b..t..h about it, from the 1980's I have chose to have an interest in this fishery (more so on the lake, but have had my stream side interests thru the years) but the decisions made by the bio's for the last 30 years have at minimum kept our fishery alive. I am sure various attitudes from anglers thru the countless decisions made for the last 30 years have differed from that of the state, gov't or bio's or etc. I have been fortunate enough to carry out my passions on this great lake with successes, successes that may not have been available if decisions made differed from what they were. In other words we are all still catching fish, mother nature plays a big role and is next to impossible to counter. I have faith in the decisions in play currently by the DEC and these decisions have put us where we are today. This is just another way to look at it, could it all crash tomorrow: Sure, same as it could have when other anglers felt wrong decisions were made. We have survived it all from evasives to variables that have crippled other fisheries. Its easy to complain or think there are better ways but there are Kings swimming around as I type just waiting to thrill us yet again !!!

 

Tom

[Storm Warning II]

The government needing more money line is getting old...if that's a problem, then why reduction in licenses? It's not the problem, its inefficiency. Tom is very correct, mama nature has a big say it what transpires...remember 2011 I believe it was? Then polar opposite last year

[KING ME]

tom - well stated

[Yankee Troller]

So, you guys are buying from the DEC it's the best fishing we've ever had? How about when it was a 5 fish limit, and captains were filling 2 150qt coolers? Most guys struggle to fill 1 cooler now with a 3 fish limit. What about the size of the fish? We saw many 40lb adults @ 3 and 4yrs old back in the 80s/90s. Now our fish mature at 2 and 3 yrs old, and a fraction of a fraction make it to 4. 

 

You can't feed guys that have been around the game this data, and expect them to believe that it's the best fishing EVER!

 

 

we went to the meeting and this was our first and being fairly new to fishing the lake we did more listening then asking cause alot of what was being discussed was a bit over my head,but when joann???i think was her name,she has to do with the fish surveys for the eastern basin was done speaking,i thought this would be a good time to ask about "daily log book" that lake fisherman could turn into the dec via the internet that would give them more feed back than just there 6 or 7 survey boats.she didnt want to really answer the question,so the guy who seemed to be running the show,steve something????stood up and was quick to say that they are happy with the boat surveys,the state has spent alot of money to start the program and pretty much has to stick with it.she then added that there would be no added bonus to start a "diary book" and that the info they get from there survey boats supply enough info for what they need.this then got brought up again after the break and steve said that they did a "diary book" back in the 90's and there was no added benefit and agian said there hands are tied,they cant do anything else cause they have invested so much money in the survey program they already have in place.someone brought up about going to fish cleaning stations to get a count of fish and do their scale and snout samples,this also was shot down pretty quick.couple other things that i found interesting was they say that pen reared fish have 2 to 1 survival rate compared to lake stocked fish.they said they have one more year of data to look at and then maybe start to look at doing more pen rearing.also,that 4 out of the last 6 years they have found atlantic salmon are naturally reproducing in the salmon river.if i got anything mixed up and someone was there,please correct me.

 

They are getting better and better at shutting us down at these meetings. From bringing in the pathologist to shut down a second hatchery option to limiting 1 question per person. Their "back up" plans for WHEN a catastrophe will hit is last time it happened fishing got good. Oh....OK.....great plan!

 

I will, however, give them great props for the extra everything (minus the Federally subsidized Lake Trout) that they put into the lake in recent years.

Edited March 12, 2015 by Yankee Troller

[King Davy]

Steve I don't know about getting a reward.... People who enjoy fishing the tribs....have in the past 15 years stepped up and volunteered to clip fish, plant trees clean tribs, help with the spring netting of YOY Chinooks to  study Natural repo. We bought gas cards for DEC and donated them to help do the stream creel census.

 

Just this fall and winter both rec and guides helped DEC collect the sample of sick steelhead. I happen to have a lot of friends who are in this that study the environment and understand the science, and to Tom's brilliant post get the fact that as much as we think DEC has management say, they actually have very little. Mother nature calls the shots. You can have all the great management plans you want but MN runs the game. As far as sending people up to do work on the hatchery...as a business legal consultant, I can tell you there is a MOUNTAIN of red tape from NYS that is almost impossible to do (Audits etc etc)...that stifles all of that. And it has nothing to do with DEC. See legal dept. at NYS.

[salmonboy41]

What about the size of the fish? We saw many 40lb adults @ 3 and 4yrs old back in the 80s/90s. Now our fish mature at 2 and 3 yrs old, and a fraction of a fraction make it to 4. 

 

This is one of the big differences between todays DEC and the DEC of the 80's. Now all you hear is bait numbers are low that's why no 40lb's, but they never address the growing percentage of kings that are maturing younger and younger.

Sure maybe there isn't the bait there was in the 80's that's why they don't stock the numbers like they used to, so there was a balance that was kept. So if you look at it that way there still should be 40lb kings.  I'm not saying that the bait levels don't have an effect on the fish sizes but it seems like getting the fish to age more constantly at years 3 and 4 would give us the best chances at 40lb plus fish.

Now back in the day didn't the DEC at least experiment with ways to get the fish to mature at an older age? why not kept trying new ideas in an effort to create a better fishery instead of just being satisfied with the status quo?

To me it just seems like they just want to keep things the way they are and there is little interest improving the way things are done unless it has to do with Lake Trout.

[KING ME]

Dave-

 it was a figure of speach and was only trying to make a point. When you work with them instead of slamming and demand stuff happens alot easier. 

[KING ME]

here is the bottom line some of you are not gonna like it but its a fact. AND IT SUCKS.

the DEC stands for Department of Environmental Conservation- their mission first and foremost is to focus on the enviroment and conservation. Ecosystems, water quality, species control whatever the cause maybe - their job is to help conserve and maintain the enviroment 

if their job or plan was to put fish in the lake for us to catch, make them all get to 40lbs and keep it jam packed stock so we all can make $ off the enviroment the DEC would stand for Demartment of my EXTRA CHANGE.

they are here to keep the lands and lakes in NY and dont care about us making money of the resources or if there is 40lb. around.

Thats the bottom line and cold hard facts. We enjoy the lake and the fishing it has. Some of us make some financial gain from it but thats our decision to try to do so.

 2 weeks or so from now we all will be enjoy what is out there....want more or better YUP but that's human natural lol

Edited March 12, 2015 by KING ME

[Gill-T]

 

 

Just this fall and winter both rec and guides helped DEC collect the sample of sick steelhead. I happen to have a lot of friends who are in this that study the environment and understand the science

 

So volunteers can collect fish but they can't work on the infrastructure?

 

 

[KING ME]

Gill-t I own a construction business and offered to help with some of the building issues. It was issue after issue of politics and insurance and liability etc.

[Gill-T]

Create a waiver. 

[finsntins]

i believe they said at the meeting it went out to bid and they have a contractor lined up to do the roof.

[King Davy]

Gill creating a waiver takes two legal parties one of them is out of Albany and requires a big hill to climb in paperwork and bureaucracy Nothing is easy at this level. Nobody can fathom it but it's the system that is in place. Like it or not Steve has it right. DEC is a functional arm of NYS in the science business trying to figure out the complexities of an environment that changes by the hour. Less salmon more bait bigger fish. More salmon ample bait more competition less size but plenty of 15 to 25 pound salmon per acre then above. Pick your poison big fish with less fish. Smaller fish more fish. Not going to get back to the 70's or 80's the lake will never again have the carrying capacity as it did back then cause we'll never again have the nutrient loading. That was then this is now different day different world.

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[Patriot]

Blame your less and smaller fish on the Zebra. The water is too clean, fewer plankton = fewer bait = smaller and fewer fish.

Plus the fact that fish can see your boat and lure easier doesn't help. Long leads, 500' of copper??

[Iceman]

Several years ago I was watching the egg stripping effort in Altmar & was disappointed to see them exclusively grab the smaller fish to strip egg & milt from. IMHO, they wanted the genes of the smaller fish, I asked them about this & just got a big blank stare.  I believe that they want smaller fish that spawn earlier.  If you want the big guys, you need too take the elements from the best fish!

 

John

[Silver Fox]

Several years ago I was watching the egg stripping effort in Altmar & was disappointed to see them exclusively grab the smaller fish to strip egg & milt from. IMHO, they wanted the genes of the smaller fish, I asked them about this & just got a big blank stare. I believe that they want smaller fish that spawn earlier. If you want the big guys, you need too take the elements from the best fish!

John

Exactly!

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[Rich D]

I asked the quest about bringing in fresh genes from the west coast to get back our 4yr olds. Was told it prob would not matter we would still get 2-3 yes old matures. Then people wonder why there is animosity towards the DEC. I don't know what it would cost to buy say, 1 mill west coast eggs, but I bet it would be cheaper than paying people to strip them here. As far as the Steelhead issue, when we are told "after leaving the lake and away from the source of Thimainse, the effects will decrease." That statement is the biggest BS statement we heard, we are seeing numbers of swirlers that have been in the river for months. These fish are dark, have been in the river for at least 2 months, so by that statement they should be back to normal. That was the worse thing he could have said with a room with numerous DB guides and trib fisherman.

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[salmonboy41]

When I talked about 40lb kings I was trying to refer to the same fact Yankee was making which was that we seem to have kings maturing at ages 2 and 3 more often and it would be nice to know why and do something about as having kings with shorter life spans will naturally be smaller.

 

I have to disagree with point about the DEC. They are a government agency and since this is supposed to be a government for the people shouldn't there main function in this case be to do what the people want/what's in the best interest of the people? Because I thought that was the reason why Salmon where stocked in the Great lakes in the first place was to give people a fish that the majority of fishermen wanted to catch and eat.