State of Lake Meetings Scheduled!

[Yankee Troller]

When I talked about 40lb kings I was trying to refer to the same fact Yankee was making which was that we seem to have kings maturing at ages 2 and 3 more often and it would be nice to know why and do something about as having kings with shorter life spans will naturally be smaller.

 

I have to disagree with point about the DEC. They are a government agency and since this is supposed to be a government for the people shouldn't there main function in this case be to do what the people want/what's in the best interest of the people? Because I thought that was the reason why Salmon where stocked in the Great lakes in the first place was to give people a fish that the majority of fishermen wanted to catch and eat.

 

Exactly! You aren't going to see 40lb 2 and 3 yr olds! This is called union egg take. Don't pay attention to age or size. Just take the fish and spawn it. They've been breeding these older fish out of the system for years. Look to Canada. They do the exact opposite. Many 30+ fish are pulled out of their waters during the Toronto SUN Derby. Fish pushing 40lbs EVERY year. We don't see those on this side of the pond.

 

There is plenty of bait out there, and their stomachs are chock full when they are feeding! If they can't get to a true maturity they'll never hit Trophy size. 

[KING ME]

I agree fully about the egg collection. This has been discussed before and is something that we should keep pressing the DEC on. This is a battle that is worth fighting. I strongly believe that the collection is genetically engineering smaller salmon. yes there are other factors like mother nature etc but keep "breeding" smaller fish ya going to get smaller fish.

Also we need to keep pressing the DEC on more pen fish allotment. Once when there study is done and data collected it should be a battle in our favor that we can win.

As for the Lake Trout... these fish will always be added. Federaly funded and a native species. The Great Lakes Fishery has alot of say and power over the DEC as to what when and how many are going into the lake. I disagree with the number increase of them, and it is very "stressful" to hear the DEC state all their data, say no to more king stocking, then finish by stating a long living, eating machine lake trout increase BUT again we are barking at the wrong people about it.

 

Salmonboy-I have to disagree with point about the DEC. They are a government agency and since this is supposed to be a government for the people shouldn't there main function in this case be to do what the people want/what's in the best interest of the people?

once again the DEC primary concern and focus is conservation and the environment. If for some god known reason it was determined that salmon or any other non native species was seriously impacting the environment

 and hurting it.... they would be gone. Fishing for them is a benefit to us all. yes it is a put and take fishery but dont believe for a second that it has to be here for us because it what people want.

[Gill-T]

Exactly! You aren't going to see 40lb 2 and 3 yr olds! This is called union egg take. Don't pay attention to age or size. Just take the fish and spawn it. They've been breeding these older fish out of the system for years. Look to Canada. They do the exact opposite. Many 30+ fish are pulled out of their waters during the Toronto SUN Derby. Fish pushing 40lbs EVERY year. We don't see those on this side of the pond.

 

There is plenty of bait out there, and their stomachs are chock full when they are feeding! If they can't get to a true maturity they'll never hit Trophy size. 

 

Exactly!  This is something the DEC can be held accountable.  In years where there are plenty of returns, the biggest and brightest should be selected.  This speaks to laziness more than anything.  Once the three and four year old spawning genetics are gone........their gone for good. 

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Several years ago I was watching the egg stripping effort in Altmar & was disappointed to see them exclusively grab the smaller fish to strip egg & milt from. IMHO, they wanted the genes of the smaller fish, I asked them about this & just got a big blank stare.  I believe that they want smaller fish that spawn earlier.  If you want the big guys, you need too take the elements from the best fish!

 

John

I am so glad people are starting to see this. The biggest problem we have is apathy. Like Rick pointed out, there is a distinct difference in the number of 4 yr olds and even 3 yr olds present in the northshore returns.( a normal Chinook population will have the largest percentage return in its 3rd year, but also a healthy number returning as age 4 adults). There are several reasons IMO that this is the case. One, different practices are being implemented, two, there is a higher % of wild Chinook and they definitely have a tendancy to mature later. Yes, we are grooming our returns for smaller and smaller adults(which mature earlier, but also the surplus bait allows for faster early growth--causing many to mature early. I'm sure many of you heard the term "power skippers" last season. This 1.5 yr olds that didnt mature were not the typical dragger size. They were ripping riggers off and in the absence of normal sized mature Salmon last Summer/Fall--many were kept by anglers.

I am glad to see so many "seeing the light". It's not that we dont appreciate the fishery we do have, or the DEC staff that IS dedicated and looking to maximize opportunity, its that this pond is not being managed as well as it could be. Yes, this IS mostly because NY is a very broken State, and the leadership has forgotten a long time ago that they work for US. Yes, if anglers want more Chinook to play with, then thats what should happen. It shouldnt be lets ram Lakers down their throats "just cuz" they are free of charge or "belong"(pre seaway, pre alewife, pre gill net, pre commercial fishing, pre lamprey).

No, we are not expecting a return of the 80's. The fishing was like it was because there were virtually no predators eating stocked fish and very few anglers who had the skills to catch them. Today the fleet is sharp, and if the numbers get too excessive the anglers will harvest them. 2012, primarily due to a bumper crop of wild fish showed what a better Salmon/prey balance could be like. Long live the King.      

[Sk8man]

Very well put Vince.

[Rich D]

Well stated Vince, it is too bad the State is being run like it is. We need to push more and more every year, maybe at some point they will listen to those that are out there every day, and really do care about this fishery. It is getting to the point that some of these guys are there just for the job, not the actual fishery, and the betterment of the fishery. It is a 2 edged sword they are playing with, IMHO. If they continue to play the game they are playing, social media will tell the real story of the lake, and they will be out of a job. If we can bring back our 4 year olds, then we bring back more tourism. Yes we have a world class fishery as we all know, but it would not take that much to make it even better!!

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United mobile app

Edited March 13, 2015 by Rich D

[Rich s]

I know some have said that keeping a log/ diary for the dec about the Great Lake would be a great idea. I also think someone responded about the logistics that's not really possible for the dec. maybe I'm wrong.

Anyway , they do it for the fishery ( stripers ) on the Hudson River and a whole range of other things, why not Lake Ontario ?

http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/72898.html

[Gill-T]

Is there an advisory board for the DEC?  In Canada they have a council made up of stakeholders who speak to the OMNR.  I think we need representation between the state and DEC.

[Tall Tails]

All legitimate clubs are part of Federations in NYS from that they send representatives to the Conservation Council they are the DEC advisory board.  You want to make a difference I would encourage you all to join your local club get involved and become the federation representative for that club.  The president for the Conservation council lives in Oswego county so there is regional representation.  He was not at the State of the Lake the other night......Squeaky Wheel gets the grease!!!

 

ELOSTA has been looking for a federation rep for 3 years.  There are a lot of keyboard jockies out there but very few who step forward to a leadership role.  You want change you have to get involved!! 

 

I am sure LOTSA has the same positions for the western end of the state.

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

It's sad to hear that KING ME's offer for construction help went unused. We ran into the same thing more than once. 2 Augusts ago we had a special meeting out in Niagara county w/ DEC regarding the poor fall returns of Chinook in the west. 

Money was once again brought up as to why water supply issues remain at the ONLY Salmon hatchery. I offered to head up a fundraising effort but was told it wouldn't help. There is also money sitting out there as a result of a law suit that is allocated just for NY environmental needs. We are told it is nearly impossible to get those funds. A few years ago all the work was done and a site was found for a hatchery on the lower Niagara river--a perfect use of the those funds, a tourism attraction for Lewiston and NYS and a place for students to serve and earn credits. We wanted very badly to have a second site for all the good reasons to rear Chinook, but at the very least they could have raised trout and eased the burden on Altmar. It must have made too much sense because it was one excuse after another why it couldnt happen. The biggest one was that there wasnt adequate ground water at the site. Of course, with unlimited water available to recirculate, that wasn't an option yet ironically that is the exact solution now being suggested at Altmar.

As for using anglers records/diaries, that has been ignored for many years. Much of my stance on these issues has been based on my observations and record keeping. I wish it wasnt so, but I don't think they want to know the results of our records, it's too powerful.

I think we have some very talented and dedicated people in the DEC, but they are shackled by a very broken NYS. The natural resources are second to none, the government may be broken beyond repair. I will be the first one in line if they'd like a volunteer group of stakeholders/users to strip Chinook this fall.  

[Gill-T]

Thanks Brian.  So help me to understand what these meetings look like and what parties are represented.  The Federation's reps, the DEC, and .....  Is there anyone from the state at these meetings or are we only talking to the DEC?

[KING ME]

vince-

 I will be the first one in line if they'd like a volunteer group of stakeholders/users to strip Chinook this fall.  

A phone call away or a post on here...I would be there also and sure alot of others  would.

 

Gill-

 this has been happening for years and many organizations, clubs, and even a stakeholders group has/was/is around to communicate with the DEC. 

Meetings range from individual groups to meetings with  just dec, then dec with local, state and fed. reps. I have sat in a number of meetings with the DEC, State and Fed agency's. 

 

LOTSA, ELOTSA, Charter groups, and tributary organizations all are a great place to join, learn, participate and have a voice.

like stated power in numbers and Squeaky Wheel gets the grease.

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

There is a tremendous disconnect. I have asked for years, who's responsibility is it from DEC fisheries to convey to the changing DEC commissioners and governors the economic value and impact? Not to mention the "quality of life" value, that actually makes people want to live here.  I think even with the dictator we currently have that it would be easier to get funds allocated if it was truly understood how much more money is returned to this state per dollar spent. If it was run like a business it would hum a whole lot better. You do NOT starve the golden goose, even if your priority is social programs. 

Edited March 13, 2015 by Capt Vince Pierleoni

[Gill-T]

If these meetings don't have a state representative then nothing will ever get done.  A DEC employee will not want to complain, stomp their foot, or fight too hard for a good cause if their job is placed in jeopardy by doing so.  I probably would be no different.  I would want to protect my job to protect my family and my pension.  We need to be speaking directly with state officials......esp. economic development people.

[Storm Warning II]

Yes, this IS mostly because NY is a very broken State, and the leadership has forgotten a long time ago that they work for US.    

 

AMEN VINCE!!!

 

Guess that's why some of the southern tier counties want to come to our "not-quite-so-broken" state...

[Tall Tails]

In this case the person making the real money decisions is Central office in Albany.  The Director for Fisheries and Wildlife is Patricia Riexinger.  The email listed for her, is the general fish and wildlife email.  So real transparency here.... 

[KING ME]

 vince- yup agreed

 

gill- some of the truely active people on the board here and the "old timers" will remember this. Awhile back my ex did a huge report for the LOSSC (stakeholders) this report was a finical impact that the lake Ontario fishery had on the economy of NYS. All the data, information, return on the dollar etc was taken and used from government data and information. This report was then complied, graphed, and written up into a booklet. This booklet was present to everyone from local clubs all the way to the top of the food chain including the federal level. It opened alot of peoples eyes, open some communication, meetings on a levels and branches where held.NOT A SINGLE person of any governing body challenged or denayed the massive amount of revenue created by the fishery on Lake ontario. BUT here we are years later still trying to get the same basic issues and situations addressed. The powers above know the money and trickle down income generated from the lake.

[Patriot]

Maybe the DEC is trying to create a balance between salmon and bait. If the salmon mature in 3 years, it leaves more food for other salmon to grow. I believe it was KM that said you can’t have both 40lbers and lots of them too. I'd rather see more fish than larger fish.

[Gill-T]

Steve, I remember the process at the Pro/Ams.  Different people in office, maybe we resubmit the findings?  Cuomo is giving away Billions in incentives for businesses in NY (supposedly).  Seems to me he ought to be interested in the well-being of the sport.

[KING ME]

PAtriot - yup the DEC is trying to create a balance between preadtor/prey. We just questioned the data they present and the balances they seem fitting. I agree that rather see numbers than size BUT changing the egg collection to a larger size,older,stronger fish would still provide numbers while increasing average overall size ....in theroy. 

[KING ME]

Gill - you can call and ask my ex to do that 6 month project again!!! LOL. seriously thou couldnt hurt

[Sk8man]

You know in the Atlantic Ocean - Cape Cod in particular they have combined efforts between commercial fishermen, recreational sport fishermen and top notch scientists and marine biologists to study the habits of Great White sharks because they are of extreme importance to the ocean ecosystem as the top predator. Thus they get first hand concrete information and knowledge from the folks out there "real time"  as well as the critical other end of it the folks who have the expertise and equipment to compile, analyze and interpret the data as well as generate "what if" scenarios". This is the type of cooperation that should be brought to bear on this situation on Lake O as the Kings are the top predator here as well and having a better understanding of them and their habits is crucial to the problem as well as potentially part of the solution. The DEC has the biologists, there is the research boat from Brockport, and we have a ton of interested parties in the charter guys and sports fishermen here on lake O. Perhaps the involvement of one or more of our state representatives should be queried about it such as Assemblyman Brian Kolb etc. The only way the state responds is by reaction (as in most bureaucrasies) not by proactive action. Albany calls the shots for all state agencies for everything.....his royal highness the Emperor takes it to a new level by micromanaging everything he can and when someone does something he doesn't know about (whether positive or negative) or he doesn't approve in advance they are summarily fired......how is that for a motivational incentive to the workforce? One potential area of influence is the state legislature (despite their many faults and limitations).....his hand can be forced on some issues if enough of the politicians are worried about their own butts and public opinion.

Edited March 13, 2015 by Sk8man

[Gill-T]

Thanks everyone .....for the enlightenment.

[KING ME]

Thanks everyone .....for the enlightenment.

ready for some aspirin yet lol