Fishing eggs in our streams and rivers

[JakeyBaby]

Nevermind I get what your saying now......... I thought you were talking about the bull's and that would just plain be NASTY!

[pvelyk]

Law from the books, only eggs of a legal collected fish kept intact do not count towards quart.  Any eggs outside of a fish count on that quart limit.

 

use and possession of fih eggs
• No person shall possess more than one quart
total of fih eggs from trout, lake trout or
Atlantic salmon while on the waters of the
state or the shores thereof. Fish eggs which
are still inside the carcass of an intact, legally
caught and possessed fih shall not be counted
towards the one quart total

[King Davy]

Again.....eatsleeptrout, it's not that the eggs fertilized in our southern shore tribs don't hatch. It's that over a year and a half later when those fish become adult enough to migrate to the lake, they haven't survived in numbers to truly impact the addition of fishable adult species to this fishery. The trib you speak of that you think produces wild brown trout, truly doesn't in any recoverable numbers. That water gets into the mid to high 70's most years becomes very low and is lethal to those YOY fish. Shutting down a trib for three days would have no impact.

 

The only tributary west of Sodus that DEC and USGS has confirmed produces wild trout and they've all been studied more then once is Irodequoit creek. Because it has several springs that can keep temps down. There are two tiny creeks just east Of Rochester that have also shown some brown trout reproduction, but we are talking handfuls of fish not thousands of recruitable adults.

 

I've spent 15 years involved in these studies, colleting data, because I've been involved with conservation groups in Tributary rehab for most of those years, and we needed to know where to put our time and efforts into. I'd be all for shutting down true nursery's if we had them. We have a couple that are feeders to the salmon river that do produce 1000's of wild trout, and yet we continue to loose the fight to shut them down because anglers fight back they want to stand in these ditches and catch spawning steelhead.  

 

Like it or not those are the facts on wild trout reproduction in this neck of the woods. For the record we've had wild steelhead in the Salmon river before they started stocking in modern times, those were fish that originated from the 1880 stockings of McCloud river rainbows. My friend who grew up on that river was catching wild steelhead back in the mid 60's... Much of the wild fish on the Canada shore started with those same fish. They have evolved to specific strains like the Ganaraska. A good biologist friend spent two years on the Steel River out of Superior for his PHD thesis looking for McCloud river genes in those wild fish, they are gone 130 years later and replaced by natural Great lakes fish. But still some of those genetics in the wild Superior fish are 50 to 80 years old. They've been around a long time.

 

There already are regs that forbid the stripping of fish and leaving the carcass. Those obviously aren't being enforced very well...simply because the violator has to be caught in the act. If we don't have enough CO's to patrol the rivers to enforce that reg, how are they going to check everybody egg sacks. Banning trout eggs is fine with me....I just don't think you put regs in place that you can't enforce.

[Yankee Troller]

Nevermind I get what your saying now......... I thought you were talking about the bull's and that would just plain be NASTY!

You're messed up bud!

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[Yankee Troller]

Again.....eatsleeptrout, it's not that the eggs fertilized in our southern shore tribs don't hatch. It's that over a year and a half later when those fish become adult enough to migrate to the lake, they haven't survived in numbers to truly impact the addition of fishable adult species to this fishery. The trib you speak of that you think produces wild brown trout, truly doesn't in any recoverable numbers. That water gets into the mid to high 70's most years becomes very low and is lethal to those YOY fish. Shutting down a trib for three days would have no impact.

The only tributary west of Sodus that DEC and USGS has confirmed produces wild trout and they've all been studied more then once is Irodequoit creek. Because it has several springs that can keep temps down. There are two tiny creeks just east Of Rochester that have also shown some brown trout reproduction, but we are talking handfuls of fish not thousands of recruitable adults.

I've spent 15 years involved in these studies, colleting data, because I've been involved with conservation groups in Tributary rehab for most of those years, and we needed to know where to put our time and efforts into. I'd be all for shutting down true nursery's if we had them. We have a couple that are feeders to the salmon river that do produce 1000's of wild trout, and yet we continue to loose the fight to shut them down because anglers fight back they want to stand in these ditches and catch spawning steelhead.

Like it or not those are the facts on wild trout reproduction in this neck of the woods. For the record we've had wild steelhead in the Salmon river before they started stocking in modern times, those were fish that originated from the 1880 stockings of McCloud river rainbows. My friend who grew up on that river was catching wild steelhead back in the mid 60's... Much of the wild fish on the Canada shore started with those same fish. They have evolved to specific strains like the Ganaraska. A good biologist friend spent two years on the Steel River out of Superior for his PHD thesis looking for McCloud river genes in those wild fish, they are gone 130 years later and replaced by natural Great lakes fish. But still some of those genetics in the wild Superior fish are 50 to 80 years old. They've been around a long time.

There already are regs that forbid the stripping of fish and leaving the carcass. Those obviously aren't being enforced very well...simply because the violator has to be caught in the act. If we don't have enough CO's to patrol the rivers to enforce that reg, how are they going to check everybody egg sacks. Banning trout eggs is fine with me....I just don't think you put regs in place that you can't enforce.

Then I guess we need to fight for more officers in the field to uphold the laws on the books. Let's band together on that!

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Edited March 26, 2015 by Yankee Troller

[BSmaster]

The debate for me is this simple.

 

Do I want another "State" regulation to hamper me when I am fishing (ethically)?

 

After a simple reminder (to myself) that the gun I was going to buy for turkey hunting became illegal in NY for the simple reason it had a thumb hole stock, I say "NO" and I say it infatically.  Nothing good will come from another restriction.  I am a reformed snagger and I can tell you flat out that I would never get caught if I was still doing it today.  Ask the Russians if they are worried about it.  I imagine they are shaking and not from fear but from laughter.

 

You want solutions oriented suggestions.  Pettition the state to enforce the laws it already has.  You can pay for an eco officer to patrol the oak all season just from littering tickets he would issue in October alone.  But more rules?  Nah.

[pvelyk]

Not just officers we need to get convictions up.  I believe Rochester legal district either had none or one convictions from all tickets written last year.  I would be one discouraged conservation officer if I knew that.

[eatsleeptrout]

Well, I've been misinformed then. I was aware of one of the small eastern tribs showing signs of natural repo. Decent amount of private property. It gets slightly more pressure now that the town developed and promoted that little trail system there. Shoot me a pm. I'm intrigued as to which the other is.

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[eatsleeptrout]

Yes. The definitely need to reallocate state funds to cover costs for more eco's

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[King Davy]

The top producers of fish other then the Salmon river of probable recruitable numbers is the Sandy's on the east end, and the IRON. I won't share the other small one's as they mostly run through private property and have very limited access anyway.

 

But none of these tribs would ever produce the numbers of fish, to where you could sustain a sport fishery. Whether they were closed off 100% of the time or not. It's purely about habitat, and folks we don't have very good fish producing habitat except for Chinook Salmon simply because they hatch during the winter months and leave the tribs in May early June, before they get too warm.

 

The western Sandy is still a producer of warm water species such as the Small mouth bass. I haven't looked at the regs for this in a long time, but back in the day when I was fishing it for bass in the 60's you could not remove bait fish or crayfish from Sandy. No netting allowed. (And back in those days we caught all our own bait), but not on Sandy.

 

I have fished all the North shore tribs, and most of them are big trout producers. Those natal waters are in fact closed until the last Sat in April, for a good reason,  in Canada they depend on natural recruitment for both the open water and trib fisheries.

 

It's interesting the "circle" of debate about more CO's. There have been several instances where region 7 and 8 have performed large sting operations and ticketed a large number of people for violations. And then the phone rings off the hook at DEC with anglers, guides and especially businesses in those sting areas complaining that their constituents are being hassled. And the CO's take the heat.

 

Rick ...Vince keep me honest here, we met with DEC in Oct. Iron Fish and Game club. Had the region 8 LT or Capt there. We asked him how many tickets they wrote in region 8 . It was hundreds....3-400. Then I asked him point black, how many were found guilty and fined. It was either NONE or less then 5.

 

Now put yourself in this CO's shoes. He's probably waiting longer looking harder at a possible violator to approach and write a ticket until he has a SLAM dunk case. Which takes more time. WHY???? Because every ticket he writes he has to appear in court on the day of hearing....and if 99% of the time he walks out without a conviction, it's tough. And our penalty for the standard violations max out at $250. Yes there are heavier fines and loss of licenses if you produce a truck full of salmon or trout to the court, but snagging a fish, or stripping eggs. Pay the fine and walk away.  

 

From the Western States to Alaska, and for all the Canadian provinces you will get fined, go to jail, and loose you gear, even your boat or car.  That gets your attention...and the fines are in the $1000's.

 

BUT DEC division of the State Police doesn't put the penalty's into Law. Once again our legislators do, and then our judges need to understand the impact that raping the sport fishery is like stealing from a store, bank or business...Shoplifters in NYS can get jail time. . The Sports angling community needs to move past the DEC on this issue, and direct their attention to our elected officials and the courts. Pure and simple.

 

So who is stepping up? You want to run a petition on this site get 10,000 signatures and send it to your elected officials and judges...and you'll get their attention. You want a better law abiding environment....it starts there.

[Traveling Circus]

All Hail the King!........ very nicely said......Better enforcement and larger penalties would be a huge part of the solution.....

[Prays mate]

There is nothing saying or a law saying that you cannot milk I fish but it puts a mass amount of stress on the fish resulting in most likely dying . Actually I think it's very unethical

[Yankee Troller]

You're right Dave. The convictions and penalties need to go up! I'm not versed in politics, so how does such thing happen?

[Patriot]

You can add a bunch of new regs. but when it comes right down to it, if there are not enough DEC guys in the streams to enforce the rules we have already, it’s a lost cause.

Start where the problem begins, enforcement of the rules we have

Edited March 26, 2015 by Patriot

[Kingfisher06]

Prison time for the men and juvenile hall for the youngsters.  Get them in the system and ruin their lives for stripping eggs.  Call it rape.  Confiscate thier means to get to work too.  We should all carry a jug of blood and toss it on folks, just like PETA.  Carry on guys, youre on a roll.     

[eatsleeptrout]

Tell them to play by the rules...

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[King Davy]

if fines are harsh, you get a higher percentage of folks thinking twice. And yes the judge would have to make an example or two out of a few cases to get everyone's attention if the penalty's were tougher. Jail time in the tougher states on hunting and Fishing crime usually results in repeat offenders or out right slaughter of the resources fish or game. My point was that someone shop lifting can be subject to a jail sentence. I would assume most that get one are probably repeat offenders unless it was "Grand Larceny"

 

So is snagging a fish going to get you jail time or hand raping a brown trout for eggs. No. But if caught ...let me take your gear from you, and give it to some kid in a program for underprivileged kids. Or let me take your shiny new tackle/fly box and pretty rod to a children's ward in a hospital and give it to them.

 

How do you do this: It's not an easy process and takes time and dedication. You need to start by being loaded down with facts. Each township normally collects data on the positive monetary impact of tourism in their town or county. Take Orleans co. for example. They can show that this little community takes in millions of dollars in sport fishing year round. You need to know those numbers and they have to be accurate.

 

Get the data on the number of tickets written by law enforcement and the number of convictions. Get thousands of people who've signed a petition that live or visit that town or county that they are sick and tired of the lawless activities going on, and are considering not coming back ever again. Rather take their hard earned dollars and going some place else. Also good to tie the fact that many people who come here to boat fish either with their own boats or with Charters ALSO come back to fish the tribs.

 

Repeat customers is the foundation of your tourism economy (Google Disney) , and with the ability to attract new... But lawlessness is a deterrent to that.  Then you have to take these legislators out for some ride alongs. Show them the skullduggery going on in their counties. When they see the conviction rates VS the number of offenders sent to court, they'll be able to make the connection to the judicial situation, and the fact that the penalty's are too light, AND the judges who hear these cases don't understand the ripple effect it has to the community and earning potential for local business (who by the way vote and contribute to their campaigns).

 

I get the fact that a Judge who sits before a brown trout rapist and a rapist of women needs to focus and concentrate on the violent crime in his court. The fish and game docket should be moved to a traffic type court and we all know that  serious or repeat offenders can still get hammered in traffic court.

 

And this has to be done for every county along the south shore so that in Albany it a collective effort that gets addressed in the State congress. It's a big deal. But that's how it happens. B1tching at the CO's is a waste of time. They try and enforce the regs they for sure are understaffed (and maybe if the state toughened up on these crimes...it would include budgeting for more officers) But if 99.9% of the violations are tossed out....they got no shot.

 

We all dream of being able to go fishing enjoy the out doors and escape the drama of life and work ...which is usually the reason we are out there in the first place. One guy ripping and raping fish in a trib is putting ALL the fish down in that area. So ruining the opportunity for all others nearby.

 

Back to my tireless comments over and over...so probably many of you "Hate" me...just kidding how can you hate me...I'm a cool old Cat. This is a 12 month a year fishery. The interests in the fishery 12 months a year have already been proved. If everybody banded together, you'd have the power to drive this home.

 

It's easy to get all fired up on a web board....but type talk is cheap. I've been to Albany to fight for stuff. It's not easy it's political and it's not fun. And can't be a handful of people. maybe only a handful get into Chambers  to talk to the guys and gals in charge, but there needs to be 1000 others sitting on the steps of State congress. (Ok maybe not a 1000). But strength is all about big numbers.

[Patriot]

if fines are harsh, you get a higher percentage of folks thinking twice. And yes the judge would have to make an example or two out of a few cases to get everyone's attention if the penalty's were tougher. Jail time in the tougher states on hunting and Fishing crime usually results in repeat offenders or out right slaughter of the resources fish or game. My point was that someone shop lifting can be subject to a jail sentence. I would assume most that get one are probably repeat offenders unless it was "Grand Larceny"

 

So is snagging a fish going to get you jail time or hand raping a brown trout for eggs. No. But if caught ...let me take your gear from you, and give it to some kid in a program for underprivileged kids. Or let me take your shiny new tackle/fly box and pretty rod to a children's ward in a hospital and give it to them.

 

How do you do this: It's not an easy process and takes time and dedication. You need to start by being loaded down with facts. Each township normally collects data on the positive monetary impact of tourism in their town or county. Take Orleans co. for example. They can show that this little community takes in millions of dollars in sport fishing year round. You need to know those numbers and they have to be accurate.

 

Get the data on the number of tickets written by law enforcement and the number of convictions. Get thousands of people who've signed a petition that live or visit that town or county that they are sick and tired of the lawless activities going on, and are considering not coming back ever again. Rather take their hard earned dollars and going some place else. Also good to tie the fact that many people who come here to boat fish either with their own boats or with Charters ALSO come back to fish the tribs.

 

Repeat customers is the foundation of your tourism economy (Google Disney) , and with the ability to attract new... But lawlessness is a deterrent to that.  Then you have to take these legislators out for some ride alongs. Show them the skullduggery going on in their counties. When they see the conviction rates VS the number of offenders sent to court, they'll be able to make the connection to the judicial situation, and the fact that the penalty's are too light, AND the judges who hear these cases don't understand the ripple effect it has to the community and earning potential for local business (who by the way vote and contribute to their campaigns).

 

I get the fact that a Judge who sits before a brown trout rapist and a rapist of women needs to focus and concentrate on the violent crime in his court. The fish and game docket should be moved to a traffic type court and we all know that  serious or repeat offenders can still get hammered in traffic court.

 

And this has to be done for every county along the south shore so that in Albany it a collective effort that gets addressed in the State congress. It's a big deal. But that's how it happens. B1tching at the CO's is a waste of time. They try and enforce the regs they for sure are understaffed (and maybe if the state toughened up on these crimes...it would include budgeting for more officers) But if 99.9% of the violations are tossed out....they got no shot.

 

We all dream of being able to go fishing enjoy the out doors and escape the drama of life and work ...which is usually the reason we are out there in the first place. One guy ripping and raping fish in a trib is putting ALL the fish down in that area. So ruining the opportunity for all others nearby.

 

Back to my tireless comments over and over...so probably many of you "Hate" me...just kidding how can you hate me...I'm a cool old Cat. This is a 12 month a year fishery. The interests in the fishery 12 months a year have already been proved. If everybody banded together, you'd have the power to drive this home.

 

It's easy to get all fired up on a web board....but type talk is cheap. I've been to Albany to fight for stuff. It's not easy it's political and it's not fun. And can't be a handful of people. maybe only a handful get into Chambers  to talk to the guys and gals in charge, but there needs to be 1000 others sitting on the steps of State congress. (Ok maybe not a 1000). But strength is all about big numbers.

I don't know you KD but after reading your many posts in this and many other threads, you are one of many that does care about the fishery. So I don't hate you for trying to make sense of this.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Patriot

[justtracytrolling]

King Davy thank you for informative posts. I dont know how popular stiffer penalties will be, but I think its long overdue and I would support it!

[gokudl3]

They should make taxidermy illegal too...it's ok to kill fish just to put on a wall

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[TileMan Dan]

This thread has become totally absurd.

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[jimski2]

Hatchery fish are nurtured in a warm spring or well water environment all winter with complete nutrition and released to the wild at a survival size while stream hatched fish have little growth rates in the low metabolic state offered in icy water. Being smaller they are consumed as forage by the larger fish in Lake Ontario.

[itstings]

I agree with your point !!!  but ny york keeps changing regs because

they say no money , put trout limit in creek but diff on lake , need more antlers before shooting . no traps cause of otters !! this reg would probably  be a good one to use but when people have very limited time and money ,Why should the state tell you how to spend your time and money when they cant even spend our money on the outdoors ?? If it wasn't for the great work of clubs at the eastern end lake there be less salmon and trout already !!

[Bada Bing]

Yankee troller if you really care about the trout ,lets ban charters and fishing guides. That would mean less fish taken.

[Silver Fox]

This thread has become totally absurd.

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Does this shock you that a topic can't get discussed properly or in any way close to the topic title? Lol

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