Pro-Am Rules

[HIGHWAY]

Just wondering since the Niagara Pro-Am is only 3 1/2 weeks away where are the 2008 updated rules. I know there are changes to the Am Division and wonder if all the teams know of them! Haven't seen them listed anywhere! Be nice if someone would update their website!!

[muskybob]

I've been wondering the same. :roll:

[Billy V]

I have a copy of them saved on my laptop at work. I'll try to post them tomorrow.

[REELJERKS]

Bill;

Please do...I have been looking also.

Thanks in advance

Mark

[Paul Czarnecki]

The ProAm website has changed hands. Karen Evarts, who was handling it, simply had too much to do and turned it over to David Turner in Oswego and the Oswego Committee is putting together a new one. It should be up shortly.

I highlighted the changes in the AM division for 2008 a while ago in this Forum. Perhaps you could go back and review. Posting the rules in their entirety would be a big waste of space on here. I can, however, email them to anyone that absolutely has to see them now.

Paul

[email protected]

[Billy V]

Sorry, I forgot to get to this today. Here they are, direct from David Turner:

OFFICIAL RULES

1. Meeting: There will be a MANDATORY meeting for Captains and Observers ONLY conducted the evening before each event.

2. Competition Parameters: The tournament’s intent is to fish two days. Hours of competition will be 6:00 AM to 2 PM each day unless altered by the tournament committee for inclement weather.

 In the event of foul weather two hours of fishing will constitute a full day. One two hour day will constitute completion of the tournament in the event of foul weather.

 Teams should be prepared to adjust their schedules to allow for fishing up to 8PM on the first day; 4 PM on the second day if weather conditions are a factor.

 If the first day is completed any time fished on the second day (even if less than two hours) will count toward the day.

 NOTE: There will be no refunds. In the event that the entire tournament is cancelled due to weather or other unforeseen circumstances all entry fees will be put in escrow and applied to the following year.

3. Tournament Limits:

 Teams must enter and exit from assigned ports ONLY.

 Tournament fishing is limited to US waters ONLY.

 Fishing in tributaries is prohibited. For the purpose of the tournament the Niagara River will be considered a tributary.

 It is the responsibility of the team to remain within the tournament boundaries. Straying outside of the tournament boundaries at any time for any reason is prohibited.

4. Team Structure: Teams are not limited to a maximum number of anglers in either the Pro or Am Divisions. However, in the Pro Division the allowable number of rods will be based on 4 anglers (8 rods). In other words, you can have more than four anglers on a team but may only run 8 rods. If you fish less than four anglers you may only run the number of rods allowed by law (2 per angler). In the Am Division the allowable number of rods will be based on three anglers (6 rods). However, Am teams will be permitted to compete with only two anglers, if desired. The Committee suggests that those teams wishing to compete with only 2 anglers purchase a valid NY fishing license for the Observer on their boat so that they may run a full complement of 6 rods. NOTE: It is NOT mandatory that all Am teams purchase fishing licenses for their observers. Only those teams with two anglers on board and wishing to run 6 rods need to purchase a license for the observer.

5. Observers: Every competing team is required to provide an observer 18 years of age or older. Observers are required to attend the Meeting the evening before the event. Observers will be exchanged between teams on a random basis.

 Observers may not operate boats or assist the team in any way.

 Observers must log in each fish caught on the Score Sheet provided. Items to be recorded are species, time of catch, estimated weight and the exact GPS location of the catch. Team leaders should make certain the observer fills in all the required fields correctly. A sample will be provided with each score sheet to ensure accuracy.

 Observer score sheets must be signed by the team leader and the observer immediately upon completion of the fishing day. Signatures must appear on the next available entry space (i.e. if the last fish recorded was #12 the signatures must appear on line #13).

 All observers MUST remain at the Weigh in site until released by the Tournament Director.

6. Boat Size and Identification: Boat size will be limited to a minimum length of 18 feet. Each team will be issued a pennant to be affixed to the boat’s antenna.

7. Radio Use and Restriction: All participating boats must be equipped with an operational VHF radio and GPS unit.

 The GPS unit is critical to the proper scoring of the catch and must remain functional at all times.

 Open communication will be in effect throughout the tournament. NOTE: This rule is designed for captain to captain communication ONLY. The tournament committees strongly suggest that any communication between captains and their observers be mutually agreed upon at the Captain’s meeting. Not everyone will want to communicate and the committees ask that everyone respect each others’ wishes with regard to this issue.

 Tournament control will monitor Channel 16 and all boats will be directed to Channel 9 for announcements. It is the responsibility of the teams to maintain contact with tournament control in the event of foul weather.

8. Start and End Times: Observers must be on their assigned boats no later than 5 AM. Teams who fail to have their observers at the assigned boat by 5 AM will be required to forfeit a team member to fill in as observer no later than 5:15 AM.

 Amateur teams will be allowed to leave the starting point at 5:20 AM ONLY after turning in their signed disclaimer forms to the tournament committee at the designated point announced at the Captain’s meeting.

 Pro teams will be allowed to leave the starting point at 5:30 after their signed disclaimer forms are turned in.

 NOTE: “Starting pointsâ€

[HIGHWAY]

In my opinion keeping the first 6 legal fish is not good for the fishery! If the fish we get average 20'' is this a good way to let these fish mature? Not in my opinion. Who made that one up? Should of went back to the original limit of 9 fish for the AM. Should be able to save on gas this year with that rule!

[Shade]

When or where can you get a 2008 Pro/Am application?

[Billy V]

I didn't write them, just posting them for all to see. Don't shoot the messenger. Now is the time to register for the events. If you want changes to the rules I'd suggest contacting someone on the committee and volunteering to help with the rules for next year.

[HIGHWAY]

Thanks for the update on the rules! And as far as volunteering for the Pro-AM I do my fair share for the Niagara County event. Not once have I been asked to participate in the rule making! And yes I have asked to be on the rule board! At Sodus last year a few teams got together and wrote down some ideas for the rules and i don't think that was one of them!! Just my thoughts on rules!

Dave

[Paul Czarnecki]

The Rule changes came about as a result of input from competitors, DEC Officials/biologists as well as Tournament Committees in other states, and are the result of a LOT of work by the Lake Ontario ProAm Series Committees. Whether you personally agree with them or not, I can assure you they are result of what the VAST majority of Am Teams told us they wanted and, most importantly, what is best for the events themselves.

I guess I don't understand your point Dave. If keeping the first six fish " is not good for the fishery" how is the old "keeping the first 9 fish" rule better for the fishery?

The Lake Ontario ProAm Series is a conservation minded series. We did away with the option of culling fish in the Am Division because it became apparent last year that a lot of the released fish in the East end tournaments did not survive because of the warm temps and the depths at which they were taken.

See you at the meeting!

Paul

[HIGHWAY]

Never said 9 fish would be better. For the most part in the past tournaments thats what the rule was 9 fish! The rules are based on a two man team=6 fish! Most Am teams are most likely 3 man teams! What does the commitee think a Pro team consists of-4 team members that =12 fish! Then we throw in 2 man teams can by a license for the observer on their boat so they can run 6 rods. Another rule i don't favor! Don't think the vast majority of the Am teams told the Pro-Am series commitee thats what they wanted. Paul just one fisherman voicing his opion. I know what hard work goes into making these events stronger and stronger each year. Just would really like to know who is exactly on the rules commitee? Thanks for your thoughts!

Dave

[fishman08]

What happened to the 7th fish! the bonus lake trout played a key role in separatingteams, i don't see why that was dropped. Either way i can't wait until niagara...it looks like it's going to be a good year!

[Paul Czarnecki]

Matthew, the "bonus" lake trout was dropped because a lot of AM teams expressed disgust at trying to weed through salmon, many of which died upon release, trying to catch a "bonus" laker. Its a good problem to have, I guess, too many salmon that you can't even catch a laker any more..LOL.

Dave, the AM rules were changed to a 2 man limit in response to many requests by legitimate Amateurs wanting to fish with a buddy or their son or father in their smaller boats (less than 25 ft.). Putting 3 people plus an observer on boats of that size jeopardized their safety and the integrity of the tournaments.

The new Am rules are designed to make the AM division more competitive for the "little guy"--the TRUE amateur. We have all seen, in recent years, the AM division completely dominated by "amateurs" driving around in 28 and 30 foot boats, rigged to the hilt, and sponsored by every tackle manufacturer in the country. While these teams may be "amateur" in the literal sense of the rule itself, these teams are anything but amateur. Instead of forcing those teams to compete with the "professionals" we have allowed them to continue to compete as amateurs but created rules that allowed EVERY amateur team to be competitive.

Finally Dave, don't get me wrong, I don't mind answering questions about the rules or the tournaments in general. I am, however, a little surprised at you for several reasons. First, you know full well who to contact if you have a gripe, a concern or a question about the tournaments. There is no need to start "fires" on the internet. Secondly, given your releationship with Vince Pierleoni and the Double Play boys, YOU yourself, could hardly be considered an amateur. In fact, aren't you fishing in the Pro Division this year? If so, why would you even be concerned with the Amateur Rules? Lastly, the ProAm Rules Committee consists of ALL 4 tournament chairs--Bill Hilts Jr., Mike Waterhouse, Chris Kenyon and Dave Turner. Also on that committee are Bob Cinelli, Greg Gehrig, and myself.

I hope I've answered everyone's questions sufficiently. If anyone has any other concerns or questions prior to the captain's meeting feel free to contact me or any of the other committee members I just listed above.

Let's have a SAFE, successful 4 Tournament Series again this year!

See everyone at the Captain's meeting.

Paul Czarnecki

[fishman08]

Thanks for answering my questiosn paul. Good luck out there this year!

[HIGHWAY]

Thanks Paul for the compliment. As far as fishing what division, we as a team haven't decided which route to go! Not out here trying to start a fire just wanted to raise the questions on some of the rules. I also have spoken to Bob about the rules and he has explained to me why they are the way the are. Doesn't mean i have to agree with them! Appreicate the time and efforrt you and the rest of the committee put forth! Lets lay this to rest and lets have a fun Pro-Am Series. See ya at the meeting Paul and good luck!

Just a reminder the Niagara Pro-Am is having a Cash Raffle with top prize of $2500. If interested in tickets contact Dawn Wilson at the Newfane Town Marina!

[zipnzim]

PAUL:

I'm not here to start any fires and I'm very appreciative for all the work you and the other people mentioned in your previous post put into the Pro AM program and tournaments to make them a success: But let's be honest.

The AM rules were changed to a two man limit in reponse to many requests by legitimate amateurs wanting to fish with a buddy or their son or father in their smaller boats (less than 25 ft.) Putting three people plus and observer in boats of that size jepordize their safety and integrity of the tournaments.

Paul, in previous years, refer to Rule 6- Boat Size and Identification.

Boat size will be limited to a minimum length of 18 feet. Each team will be issued a pennant to be affixed to the boat's antenna.

I don't believe the Rules Committee put us in jeopardy or hurt the integrity of the tournaments.

Now, let's talk about a true amateur. I believe an amatuer is someone other than a professional charter captain or a professional guide. If they desire to decorate their boat with decals, that does not necessarily say they are sponsored by that company. Example- All the pick up trucks driving down the road with Notre Dame or Penn State football stickers does not mean they are being supported by that school. It's just their choice to show people they believe in what is beyond that decal. A true amateur is a person who spends endlesss hours on the water of Lake Ontario fishing, trying to improve his sport. It is very beneficial to New York state and all the communities where PRO Am's are held or where the amateur docks his boat and fishes out of. It costs alot of money to be competitive as an amateur to fish these tournaments. So whether we are in an 18 foot boat or a 31 foot boat, is immaterial. I'm proud to say that I am a true amateur and I fish Lake Ontario derbys, Pro Am's and weekends

when there are no chances of me winning any money. So, let's just say

A TRUE AMATEUR IS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO FISHES FOR THE SPORT AND NOT THE MONEY. That is the difference between AM and PRO.

Paul, again, these are Pro AMs. The seven people you mentioned in your previous post- we have four tournament chairs- Bill Hilts Jr., Mike Waterhouse, Chris Kenyon and Dave Turner. And three Charter Captains-

Bob Cinell, Greg Gehrig and Paul Czarnecki. Give an amateur a spot on this committee to work alongside the seven mentioned above.

Let's keep united and move forward and make these tournaments stronger.

[TOP SECRET]

In my opinion keeping the first 6 legal fish is not good for the fishery! If the fish we get average 20'' is this a good way to let these fish mature? Not in my opinion. Who made that one up? Should of went back to the original limit of 9 fish for the AM. Should be able to save on gas this year with that rule!

Ummm... yes you did suggest going back to the 9 fish limit for AMs.

Kudos to the rules committee for lowering the min people to 2 plus an observer! This is one of the rules that has prevented me from signing up in the past as it can be difficult to find two more people for my team, not to mention 4 people on my 19' boat get's pretty tight. But then again, if we all had big boats and lots of drinking buddies like Highway, we wouldn't care either

Nick

[TOP SECRET]

PAUL:

Now, let's talk about a true amateur. I believe an amatuer is someone other than a professional charter captain or a professional guide. If they desire to decorate their boat with decals, that does not necessarily say they are sponsored by that company. Example- All the pick up trucks driving down the road with Notre Dame or Penn State football stickers does not mean they are being supported by that school. It's just their choice to show people they believe in what is beyond that decal. A true amateur is a person who spends endlesss hours on the water of Lake Ontario fishing, trying to improve his sport. It is very beneficial to New York state and all the communities where PRO Am's are held or where the amateur docks his boat and fishes out of. It costs alot of money to be competitive as an amateur to fish these tournaments. So whether we are in an 18 foot boat or a 31 foot boat, is immaterial. I'm proud to say that I am a true amateur and I fish Lake Ontario derbys, Pro Am's and weekends

when there are no chances of me winning any money. So, let's just say

A TRUE AMATEUR IS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO FISHES FOR THE SPORT AND NOT THE MONEY. That is the difference between AM and PRO.

Have to disagree somewhat with you on your definition of amateur. Yes I agree with the fishing for fun and not money, but a lot of the charter captains also fish these tournaments for the fun and not just to get paid. You're missing a key part to being an amateur... skill level. In my eyes, the big difference between the amateur division and pro division should be skill level. If you fish a lot and feel confident in your skills and believe you are just as good as the next guy, you should not be fishing the amateur division.... the fact that teams that fish the pro division even think of fishing the amateur division... well... quite frakly it sorta pisses me off. If you're that skilled to where you can compete at the pro division, why would you join the amateur? So you can compete against people who are not as good and stand a better chance of winning? Am I missing something? Personally, I would think if you were to win in the amateur division, you would want to fish the pro division the following year. Sorry for the tough love, but I have strong opinions

Nick

[muskybob]

the fact that Highway's team fishes the pro division and is thinking of fishing the amateur division... well...

Umm, I think it's the other way around. Highway's team fishes the AM division.

[TOP SECRET]

haha yeah I didn't mean to put highway in there... meant to talk about teams in general. Post edited

Nick

[muskybob]

Thanks s*** happens.

[ray koziatek]

OH what the heck ill jump in too ........shoot i forgot what i was gonna say. oh yea thanks to the guys who volenteer their time to keep these derbys going,its gotta take a lot of your time .and we all better enjoy em while we can afford(bairly) the gas to enter them.Even though i only entered 1 pro am in my life (wayne) i sorta like the releaseing of fish at the side of the boat,specially if its a 16in dink .as for last year at the wayne derby seems like very few AM's even weighed in 6 fish a day .which would indicate very few fish released,but im justa plummer,ill bet 1boat fishing seriously in this spring LOC derby will release more fish in a day than all the am"s did in that 2 day derby,i bet if you asked for a show of hands at the captians meeting for those who released fish not to many will pop up...

[Time Out]

Guys,

As a member of the Cold Water Affair team, we were on of the teams that suggested these new rules for the tournament. There was a get together of sorts after the Sodus Tournament that all am teams could attend. About ten teams of all ability showed up following weigh in on Saturday. We were not looking to change all the rules, only modify for concerns that some of the teams were having. The lake trout rule was a hot on because of the amount of salmon that were being caught while fishing for the lake trout. Releasing salmon that have been brought up from the depths is no easy task after they have been fighting in 75 degree water. If you were at Oswego last year you will know what I mean.

This tournament is about having great time fishing and getting to know fellow fisherman. If you are fishing these to make money, you are in it for the wrong reason. If you think that certain teams should move to pro because they win to much, make it your goal to beat them. As far as making teams move up once they win, our team has finished everywhere from 6th to 23rd since our win at Niagra in 06'. We need to stop having such personal conflict with these rules and just fish the tournaments to the best of your abilities. If there are concerns regarding the tournament, people should contact the tournament directly and not criticise on the net. Its only going to hurt the tournament in the furtue.

So with that said, be sure to thank Bill, Mike, Dave, Chris, Bob, Paul, Greg and eveyone else that has a hand in these tournaments. They keep it alive for us to enjoy.

Thanks

Jeff

Cold Water Affair

Ps. If there was something that I said that makes you mad, PM me

[TOP SECRET]

very well said Jeff.

Nick