Down-Speed

[Smart Troll]

Just how important IS Down-Speed

 

I know...many of you are thinking that down-speed is extremely important...and it is. But the question is why is down-speed SO important. In this post I will express my very controversial view just to get you thinking.

 

Typically when I ask why down-speed matters so much the response I get is because it affects the lure's action and I agree that it does. Certainly the speed has to be fast enough that the lure has a somewhat natural looking action but not so fast that is just barrel rolls (or comes to the surface). In my experience...while the range can be narrow for some lures, many lures look good for 2 MPH or more (from 1.5 MPH to 3.5 MPH for example). I looked hard but I could not find any manufacturer who publishes a minimum and maximum speed for their lures.

 

Others tell me that the fish are sometimes "just too lazy" to chase the lure if it is going too fast; or conversely "it just doesn't trigger their instinct to bite" if the lure is traveling too slow. Maybe either of these is the case sometimes...but my “instinct†tells me that a few tenths of a MPH would not typically be enough of a factor to make that much difference. If you drag the lure past the fish's nose he will usually bite (or not bite) regardless if the lure is traveling a few tenths MPH faster or slower.

 

When I ask what speed they troll some captains tell me they like 1.8 MPH to 2.1 MPH and others tell me if they are going slower than 2.5 MPH come help because something is wrong. The captains who troll slow catch fish and the captains who troll faster also catch fish. These guys might have some variation but typically they use the same lures, meat rigs and other gear.

 

One more thing...It is very common to catch a fish when the boat is in a turn. I have heard captains say if the bite is on the inside of the turn they know the fish want it a "little slower" today or if it is on the outside of the turn they want it a "little faster" today.

 

 

So, here is why I get confused when I put it all together:

• Some captains say fish slow...if you go faster the lure action is bad

   

• Some captains say fish fast...if you go slower the lure action is bad

   

• Most captains say if the fish bite the lines on the outside of a turn...troll faster

   

• Most captains say if the fish bite the lines on the inside of a turn...troll slower

   

Sometimes when I am thinking about all of this I picture in my mind...if the lure travels right past the fish at 2.0 MPH the fish will bite but troll that same lure right past the fish at 2.5 MPH and the fish won't bother. But, find any lure or diver depth chart that shows how deep it dives at different speeds and you will find that 0.5 MPH can affect the lure's depth by 15 to 30 feet or even more. Many "Smart Troll" users have proven that to be true. So, that paints a whole different picture. Now I see in my mind’s eye that if your lure is at the same depth as the fish at 2.0 MPH it could be 30 feet above the fish at 2.5 MPH (out of the zone).

 

 

When I think of it that way it makes more sense to me:

• Maybe some captains catch fish trolling slower because they have learned to get their lures at the "right depth" at the slower speed.

   

• Maybe some captains catch fish trolling faster because they have learned to get their lures at the "right depth" at the faster speed.

   

• Maybe the fish bite on the inside of a turn because they are deeper today.

   

• Maybe the fish bite on the outside of a turn because they are not as deep today.

   

• Maybe it is more about depth than down-speed.

   

• Maybe controlling down-speed is so important because that in-turn determines the depth of your lures.

   

• "S Turns" cause the lures to rise and fall in the column passing through the zone where the fish are hanging-out that day.

   

• Same with speeding up and slowing down...the gear rises and falls in the water column.

   

In the past the only way you could duplicate the depth where the "bite is on" was by precisely controlling the down-speed. But now, with "Smart Troll" you can learn to target a specific depth or temperature regardless of speed.

 

My mind is pretty open and I am still thinking it all through so it will be great to hear your "two cents".

 

[rolmops]

You completely ignore the fact that 90 feet below the surface there is very often a current which may make your lure run at 5mph or lay dead in the water, and when a lure is pulled 10 or 20 feet behind a downrigger ball. It will not drop and significantly change its depth.

Edited April 29, 2015 by rolmops

[Sk8man]

Here is my 2 cents - most if not of all the reasoning above is based on DEPTH and SPEED of the lure. My suggestion is that it may be neither or perhaps both in conjunction with a more important variable - PROXIMITY (regardless of  the above depth or speed). If the lure happens to be close enough to the fish and the fish is actively hungry or feeding and the lure appears as a vulnerable (the specific lure action) prey. The closeness also suggests the variable of minimizing energy expenditure which is also more important in colder water. Just my take on it.  Yes fish will come up to examine a lure and yes they will follow for long periods and depth of lure and speed may affect their behavior but it needs to be close and appear vulnerable and the movement of the action may be more important in their decision to bite.

[bandrus1]

this doesnt seem like an unbiased opinion  

[skipper19]

Down speed has never really been a determining factor, for me, when it's based on a few tenths of a mile per hour, but on the other hand down speed that pushes over a mile per hour difference from speed over ground GPS tells me a current is working against me on lure presentation, both speed and blow back depth. That information when compared has some merit, based on the visual of the lure action next to the boat at GPS speed. So for me I don't get wound too tight about a GPS and down speed being a few tenths off. Too many other factors are messing with all speed readings on rough days compared to smooth days on the water surface.

I agree with your "minds eye" that speed and drag causes depth differences far greater than worries about speed down there. Amplitude becomes greater as depth increases and also as length of presentation increases.

Depth is more critical in my opinion, in that it entails the precise location of a sharp thermocline you may be trying to target. However in that case, down temp does become more important in that it will tell you if your speed changes or your turns drops your lures into the cold zone, you now know that down speed changes depth dramatically and even more so when longer leads and deeper depths are being prowled.

Ok .....that's it...too much to say..😉

Mark

[LongLine]

You're thinking too much.  A particular lure has a particular action: at a particular depth, at a particular water temperature, at a particular lead, with a particular leader, with a particular main line, with a particular hook, with a particular ring, with a particular snap, with particular water clarity & sunlight (flash), with a particular tape on it, with a particular bend in it, in a particular current, in a particular wave condition.  Change any of these & the action of the lure changes.

 

Many times over the years, I've purchase two lures thinking they were identical but found that one catches fish while the other is a dud.  What's the difference?  Look lures over very closely, you'll generally find minute differences, especially in plugs.  I don't know of any "captains" that when they first put a lure out, don't check out it's action close to the boat first.

 

Additionally, when someone gives you a speed, don't take it as gospel.  Is his instrument the same as yours?  All instruments have tolerances, What are the chances yours is calibrated exactly the same as theirs?  What are the chances that the currents are the same where he fishes & where you are fishing? Some troll N-S, some go E-W.  I've seen currents be different 1/4 mile away.  Direction of the current hitting which side of a paddle wheel probe also make things interesting.

 

The good thing about a probe is the ability to reasonably repeat speed after you've found a speed that works for you.

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[G-Daddy]

Let me start with a disclaimer. We fish from mid-July to Labor Day. We have found repeatability to be the key to trolling speed, but when we can find a temperature break, the probe can be invaluable. Some of our best fishing has been over a temperature break on a hot August day.

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

[Smart Troll]

Been offline for a few hours but now that I am back it is great to see all of the comments. I will take the time below to respond to all of you whom have commented up to this point. I absolutely respect everyone's input so if I make a counter point please know that my attitude is nothing but positive.

 

I just want to keep the creative thoughts going...the challenging points all of you have made sure have me thinking it all through. So I will respond to each of you below and look forward to your responses.

[Smart Troll]

You completely ignore the fact that 90 feet below the surface there is very often a current which may make your lure run at 5mph or lay dead in the water, and when a lure is pulled 10 or 20 feet behind a downrigger ball. It will not drop and significantly change its depth.

 

Rolmops,

 

I didn't mean to completely ignore that but thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify that I am only talking about lines that are NOT attached to a downrigger. I agree completely that a relative short run attached to a DR ball will not change depth too much with small changes in speed. A few feet maybe but not 10 to 30 feet like the lines that are not attached to the DR.

 

The only thing that a downrigger has in common is that it enables you to target a desired depth.

 

If you are monitoring the depth of lines not attached to a downrigger you would know immediately if you were in the currents you described because going against that current the probe (and lure) would rise lots higher in the water column and if you were chasing the current the probe would be much deeper than expected.

 

If you measure down-speed in the same layer of water where your lures are found then going against the current you would slow down until the down-speed matched your desired speed and if traveling in the same direction as the current you would speed up until the down-speed matched your desired speed. Either of those would in-turn put the lures at a particular depth.

 

If you know the depth of the lures you can do the same thing...slow down or speed up until the lures reached a desired depth.

[Smart Troll]

Here is my 2 cents - most if not of all the reasoning above is based on DEPTH and SPEED of the lure. My suggestion is that it may be neither or perhaps both in conjunction with a more important variable - PROXIMITY (regardless of  the above depth or speed). If the lure happens to be close enough to the fish and the fish is actively hungry or feeding and the lure appears as a vulnerable (the specific lure action) prey. The closeness also suggests the variable of minimizing energy expenditure which is also more important in colder water. Just my take on it.  Yes fish will come up to examine a lure and yes they will follow for long periods and depth of lure and speed may affect their behavior but it needs to be close and appear vulnerable and the movement of the action may be more important in their decision to bite.

 

Sk8man,

 

Bingo...I agree completely. Getting close to the fish is most important. I think the assumption is that fish often congregate in a relatively narrow layer of the water column...of course that is not always true.

 

But if a food chain develops around the thermocline (or in some other layer) the big fish will be there too. Or, if not too actively feeding they might seek a depth that is a comfortable temperature for them. Or whatever reason...if it is true that the target fish can often be found at a particular depth then it is helpful to find the depth where the bite is on and then target that depth with as many lines as possible.

 

That fits your theory exactly...get in close proximity to the fish.

[Smart Troll]

this doesnt seem like an unbiased opinion  

 

bandrus1,

 

Guilty...I am certainly biased but I try real hard to keep that from influencing my conclusions too much. I do provide a Probe with Depth, Temp and SPEED but if you ask me I will tell you that you don't need SPEED if you have the Probes with depth and temp. The reason is because if (all else being the same) you duplicate depth then you are also duplicating speed. The Depth/Temp Probes are cheaper, smaller and lighter than the depth/Temp/Speed Probes.

 

Once you know how deep your setups run then you will know when the down-speed is faster because the gear will be higher in the water column than expected and if slower then your gear will be deeper in the water column.

 

If you adjust your boat speed to get the lure back to the expected depth then you are duplicating down-speed.

[Smart Troll]

Down speed has never really been a determining factor, for me, when it's based on a few tenths of a mile per hour, but on the other hand down speed that pushes over a mile per hour difference from speed over ground GPS tells me a current is working against me on lure presentation, both speed and blow back depth. That information when compared has some merit, based on the visual of the lure action next to the boat at GPS speed. So for me I don't get wound too tight about a GPS and down speed being a few tenths off. Too many other factors are messing with all speed readings on rough days compared to smooth days on the water surface.

I agree with your "minds eye" that speed and drag causes depth differences far greater than worries about speed down there. Amplitude becomes greater as depth increases and also as length of presentation increases.

Depth is more critical in my opinion, in that it entails the precise location of a sharp thermocline you may be trying to target. However in that case, down temp does become more important in that it will tell you if your speed changes or your turns drops your lures into the cold zone, you now know that down speed changes depth dramatically and even more so when longer leads and deeper depths are being prowled.

Ok .....that's it...too much to say..

Mark

 

 

skipper19,

 

I agree with everything you said...IMO Depth and Temperature are most important. I have noticed that just wave action alone  (which causes pulling back and forth on the rods)...can affect the depth of the lure by over 10 feet.

 

If you have live depth data from the lure you will know when that 1 MPH situation happens because it will affect the depth of the lures by many feet.

[Smart Troll]

You're thinking too much.  A particular lure has a particular action: at a particular depth, at a particular water temperature, at a particular lead, with a particular leader, with a particular main line, with a particular hook, with a particular ring, with a particular snap, with particular water clarity & sunlight (flash), with a particular tape on it, with a particular bend in it, in a particular current, in a particular wave condition.  Change any of these & the action of the lure changes.

 

Many times over the years, I've purchase two lures thinking they were identical but found that one catches fish while the other is a dud.  What's the difference?  Look lures over very closely, you'll generally find minute differences, especially in plugs.  I don't know of any "captains" that when they first put a lure out, don't check out it's action close to the boat first.

 

Additionally, when someone gives you a speed, don't take it as gospel.  Is his instrument the same as yours?  All instruments have tolerances, What are the chances yours is calibrated exactly the same as theirs?  What are the chances that the currents are the same where he fishes & where you are fishing? Some troll N-S, some go E-W.  I've seen currents be different 1/4 mile away.  Direction of the current hitting which side of a paddle wheel probe also make things interesting.

 

The good thing about a probe is the ability to reasonably repeat speed after you've found a speed that works for you.

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

 

LongLine,

 

I am betting the main difference in those lures you mentioned is they run different depths.

 

Agreed about the speed...another thing to consider is if the Probe measuring speed is in a different layer of the water column then it might not be measuring the speed at the lure. If the DR ball is 75 feet deep and you run head into a down-current that goes from 30 feet deep to 60 feet deep then all of your lures and divers will rise in the water column and nothing is detected at the ball.

[Smart Troll]

Let me start with a disclaimer. We fish from mid-July to Labor Day. We have found repeatability to be the key to trolling speed, but when we can find a temperature break, the probe can be invaluable. Some of our best fishing has been over a temperature break on a hot August day.

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

 

G-Daddy,

 

The only question I have is when you get "repeatability" by controlling the down-speed which is the bigger factor? The fact that your lures are running the same speed or is it because when you are duplicating speed you in turn are also getting your lures at the same approximate depth?

 

Depth and Temperature data helps you to pinpoint that temp break.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Smart Troll

[GAMBLER]

When I fish lakers, SPEED is the most critical element of the technique.  Knowing the temp and depth at the ball is wasted info 99% of the time.  I run Hammerheads and find they thump too hard at anything over 1.8 mph (at the ball) and catch rates drop dramatically.  Being able to duplicate speed and keep the speed under 1.8 is the number one key to successful laker fishing.  Do we really need to know temp depth and speed at every lure?  With different conditions at different depths, you will never get the speed right at every rig.  Trolling in a S pattern will change speeds and cause a happy medium for every rig.  All the extra crap is not needed.  We tend to over think the art of trolling as it is. 

[skipper19]

One phenomenon, maybe not,..I'll call it a revelation, about speed adjustments with GPS ONLY before down speed. We might decide to slow down the boat to entice a fish to strike cause its visible on the screen and following the ball. Then it strikes and we "think" the fish response was on a slower target on the same plane of depth. Next presentation uses the same speed and depth on the counter without another response. Frustrsted, what happened? I only know now what happened because of down speed now at the ball. The exact opposite of natural thinking.

The boat slowed down but the ball and lure sped up on a pendulum swing. Actually sped up a lot more than expected, not just tenths but full mph or more depending on depth of troll. Being on "over simplified thought" before down speed, had me reproduce the exact WRONG speed, by 1 or more mph! Of course this information from down speed is one dimension that is important data IF you physically look at the down speed at the time the rod snaps off the release. The other dimension you cannot know is the depth at the perogee [spelling] of the pendulum swing towards the boat due to the gravitational pull of the Earth...before depth at the ball became a tool. Only that the temp changed Colder, moving down and faster as the boat slowed, which also may have enticed a strike.

What goes on with long lines is any bodies guess...before advent of the wireless sensors.

Mark

Edited April 30, 2015 by skipper19

[baitrigger]

Alot to think about. Some great points. I think the most important thing about down speed is that it eliminates variables and promotes consistancy in trolling. We catch more fish now than before we had a fish hawk. Its hard to say that about many of our tools.

[TyeeTanic]

Darrel, you are essentially correct.  But here's the thing. There's more variables that impact the depth of a line than speed. Here's a few issues:

 

- your line counter may be incorrect. So you think you have 150 ft of line out, and should be 30 ft, or 60 ft down, but you actually have 120 ft of line out because you've just cut off a bunch of wire that got tangled and the reel is not fully loaded.  The wire in the bottom of the spool is over-counted by the line counter by 200% (it's 3x less than what the line counter measures).

- you have a dipsey diver out, set to 1.5, but actually it's more like 1.6 or 1.7, because you didn't take extra care, or the weight slips a little. That little bit of a difference can throw your depth off a lot.

- you use a large 12" paddle vs. an 8" paddle vs. a dodger vs. etc, etc.  Essentially every tackle arrangement impacts drag, and drag impacts depth.  You could learn each setup, but that is a lot of info to retain.

 

OK, so why is it important to know either SPEED or the depth you should maintain (target) at a certain length of line out. It's because SPEED does impact a lures action. Each lure is designed to work within a certain speed range.  Also each species I believe has a preferred speed - the speed at which it is used to a baitfish its about to strike travels at. They are animals, and they act on instinct. The point is to repeat those elements that triggers the instinct.

 

A speed probe allows me to know if I'm in a good range, and yes, it's not about the absolute, but about repeatability. I don't care if the probe is wrong and says I am going 1 mph, when I'm actually going 2 mph, as long as I know that 1 mph is the target.  The speed probe takes all the guess work out, what if my line counter is wrong? how does drag impact the speed/depth? Etc, etc.

 

By taking the guess work out, you save time, crucial time.  Everyone knows the best bite is in the first few hours of dawn.  We spend enough time trying to figure out where the fish are. You don't want to spend more time trying to figure out what a good line depth/speed is.  This is especially relevant in tournaments, where normally people get ahead of the game and position themselves for the podium in the first 2 to 3 hours (not always, but most of the time).

 

Now, we can both believe what we want, but this I am 100% certain we will agree on. Having speed does not hurt your fishing. In the least it's another parameter you can watch that you might not need. Potentially it can provide crucial data to help you zero in quickly into a program that works.

[Smart Troll]

TyeeTanic,

Thanks for the excellent points you made in your post and I certainly agree with all of them. You made me realize that I have been emphasizing depth so much I guess I have implied SPEED is not important at all. And with a speed Probe you can probably get everything setup faster because it takes a few for the depth of everything to stabilize.

But it is also true that all things being the same (same line, same reading on the counter, same lure, etc). If you duplicate the depth then you are also duplicating the speed. If you are fishing in water with no current and the lure is 50 feet deep...if you come into a 0.5 MPH current that you are traveling against the lure will rise 10 to 30 feet in the water column. If you slow down until the lure is again 50 feet deep then you have duplicated the same down-speed you had before. If you turned around so you was traveling in the same direction as the current the lure would go deeper. In that case...if you speed up until the lure is back to 50 feet deep then you have again duplicated the down-speed as well.

That is why I said in a post near the beginning that in my opinion you don't need a Smart Troll Probe with "Speed" IF you have Probes attached to the lines that show depth and temperature. I didn't mean Speed is not important at all. I meant there is a direct correlation between Depth and Speed so  if you get bites at a certain depth...if you don't change anything else but adjust the boat speed to get the lure back to the same depth then it is also duplicating the down-speed.

The bonus is that you can also tell if a Dipsy pops or if you catch a shaker or pickup weeds or come into a mid-lake current, etc...because all of those things will affect the depth of the gear.

Having said all that...clearly any information you can add to the mix can help you get fine tuned quicker. If I had to make a choice I would choose Depth and Temperature...but adding speed to the mix is a sharper edge for sure.

[G-Daddy]

G-Daddy,

 

The only question I have is when you get "repeatability" by controlling the down-speed which is the bigger factor? The fact that your lures are running the same speed or is it because when you are duplicating speed you in turn are also getting your lures at the same approximate depth?

 

Depth and Temperature data helps you to pinpoint that temp break.

 

We try to repeat everything that works.  Don't think it through too much - just do it.  By the way, where on the Chesapeake do you fish.  We spend some time out of Somers Cove in Crisfield and fish Tangier Sound a good bit.  Getting some good reports for tthe rock out of there now.

[on the lam]

.

Edited April 30, 2015 by on the lam

[Smart Troll]

We try to repeat everything that works.  Don't think it through too much - just do it.  By the way, where on the Chesapeake do you fish.  We spend some time out of Somers Cove in Crisfield and fish Tangier Sound a good bit.  Getting some good reports for tthe rock out of there now.

 

G-Daddy,

 

I am quite a bit north of you near Kent Island. But, plenty close enough so we should go fishing together sometime. Are you fishing the MSSA tournament this week-end?

[TyeeTanic]

• Darrel,

  Oh, I know you are aware speed is important. I wasn't contesting that.

  I also know what you are trying to say ... all things being the same, if depth is the same, speed has to be consistent. That is the theory.

  But, what I'm saying is in reality it could be hard to get everything duplicated, exactly the same, everytime you throw a line out. The line counter on a different rod may be wrong/or reading different. The dipsey weight may not be put to the exact same position. You want to try a new flasher or dodger. Etc.

  Having the speed takes out the need to ensure everything is exactly the same when you set up your lines.

  Now, if a line is in the water and a fish hits at 40 ft down, then you probably don't need speed if you have that same line out again and keep it at 40 ft down.

  But that is jumping the gun.  That's after the fact, after you've caught that first fish. What my focus is on is using time in the morning as effectively as possible, so you optimize those first crucial 2 or 3 hours of daylight.  If you have speed, you don't have to guess to get everything the same, just so you can repeat speed indirectly. Yes you can use the same rod and tackle as yesterday, but what if the conditions change and you don't want to use that rod again? OK, so you have another favorite rod. How many setups do you need to memorize and at each different target depth?

  You can make a notebook full of data that says for that rod, with that tackle, at that depth, at 2.5 mph, you have to have 185 ft of line out (and it will be several pages long). Or you can have a speed probe and put the line in the water and you're good in 1 minute, no matter what.

[Smart Troll]

TyeeTanic,

 

I get it...if you have Depth, Temp and Speed at the lure you have it all...{;~)[

 

If you know the speed and depth of the water at the lures you can figure how deep your gear runs at various down-speeds real fast instead of over a longer period of time.

[Silver Fox]

Why do I sense an infomercial?

Sent from my XT1080 using Lake Ontario United mobile app

Edited April 30, 2015 by Silver Fox