Down-Speed

[Smart Troll]

Silver Fox,

 

Yes...I am biased

 

But, I am also just trying to make sense of it all. I like to post on the forum and because I am a Sponsor I will always have a bias but I don't hide who I am. My avatar and screen name pretty much identifies who I am.

 

So, I have a choice don't post...or be open about who I am. I hope that my openness is enough but if there are complaints then I will revert to the choice to not post.

[G-Daddy]

No fishing this weekend. Just bought a new F-250 and I'm having a cap installed. Also need to do a couple of repairs on our place near Chincoteague. Never fish the tourneys - too many crazies.

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

[LongLine]

S-T:  I think you should go to u-tube and look at underwater salmon strikes.  There are plenty of videos showing fish following lures but not hitting.  Obviously those lures are at the right location i.e. depth & temp,  because there are fish shown following the lures.  BUT many don't hit - Why?  (hint - speed - action isn't right)  On other videos you'll see salmon come out of nowhere & smash the lures.  Obviously in those cases the lure wasn't where the fish were yet they got smashed. 

 

Additionally, on Lake Ontario many Salmon & Lakers are caught every year way out of their temp range.  I've seen salmon on my screen come from 80 ft down  to hit lures 15 ft down, as have many of the guys on this site..

 

Thank you for your infomercial.

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

 

BTW: my reference to two identical lures has applied to my experience where I fish a lot with one and catch a bunch of fish then lose it via break off or snag.  Put the 2nd one on & zip-nada.  (This is why fishermen need to be able to tune a lure)

[Smart Troll]

LongLine,

 

Yep...I agree all of those things happen. Sometimes they will hit anything and other times they are really picky and sometimes they will come out of nowhere...chase your lure down and hit it hard. Still, I think overall your odds of getting a hit are better if you get close to the fish rather than 30 feet away.

 

I don't say down-speed doesn't matter at all...I just claim 2 things.

 

1) If you know the depth of the lure then if you duplicate depth then you also automatically duplicate down-speed
 

2) If you change your speed by 0.5 MPH (2.0 to 2.5 MPH for example) the lure action changes but the depth also changes a lot.

 

If it is all about lure action then I can't explain why one boat is catching fish at 1.8 - 2.1 MPH and his buddy catches fish 2.5 -2.8 MPH. But, having said that I agree if they are in the mood to follow the lure and look it over for awhile then it better look right.

[skipper19]

One variable is not in the realm of anyone's control. We as thinking, scientific, data collection beings, will never be able to count on repeatability of one thing...another beings brain. The fish. You can have it all perfect on 100 boats, and 100 other boats not so perfect. The results still depend on the fish. The fish is mostly creature of habit, thinks slightly, reacts mostly. How it reacts is based upon a lot of variables not related to speed, depth, direction, temperature or type of lure on what deployment. We capitalize on most of the habits to increase our odds. Kind of like playing roulette on a table with a biased wheel. The ball falls on a known number more often than not, and it wins most of the time...until the wheel is moved to a different table on another day. Another brain has changed the winning program, like the fish do. A lot about a fish action is related to the masses of its kind it swims with. Either laying out of temp reacting to nothing or opposite reaction spectrum, a feeding frenzy brought on by its piers like a riot. Even half the boats doing everything wrong except scaring fish...another science on avoidance..will be marginally successful when the feed bag is on. Getting a negative fish to react has as much to do with a fisherman's persistence as it does having data and presentations. Having the will to find that roulette wheel and bring the known data to win again.

Some days you will use that data and find that win of fish other days we will find that school and the bias is not there, but persistent trying will one day pay again using what we know, but you still will never really know without data, its communication with others,(THANKS Yankee Rick and others like him)....and persistence. In the end, the uncontrolled variable is a fishes brain that controls our success. 15000 dollars electronic equipment or not.

I like data, so I feel better having as much as I can afford to help me win, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes something rookie wins. That's what makes this fishing so fun on so many levels that anyone can play and win on their own level. Down speed?., if you don't have it, don't worry, at some point your lure is right and you are at a close speed, AND....the fish will be in a frenzy right where you are.

Mark

Edited May 1, 2015 by skipper19

[LongLine]

1) If you know the depth of the lure then if you duplicate depth then you also automatically duplicate down-speed

Sorry, sometimes true but many cases just not true. example: Fishing Lakers - blades close to the ball, cannonball dragging sandy bottom. Turn 180 deg & go with the down current w/o touching throttle.  Your depth stays the same but your downspeed will change quite a bit. 

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

 

[Smart Troll]

LongLine,

 

I agree a with a downrigger ball the depth won't change much. Please excuse me for not clarifying that.

 

My comments are based on the depth of everything in your spread that is not attached to a downrigger.

 

But someone recently brought to my attention... there are other variables that will affect the down-speed to depth relationship such as line out, line diameter, variations in the divers or other gear. So, for my statement to be true all of those variables have to be consistent. You can do that on a given rod on a given day but I would agree that is difficult to do day to day. Getting a knot and cutting your line shorter (for example) will change the counter and throw everything off. Change out the lure and again...everything can change. In light of that I would have to admit that if you want to quickly and consistently control your down-speed day in and day out you would want to use a probe with down-speed.

[on the lam]

Sorry, sometimes true but many cases just not true. example: Fishing Lakers - blades close to the ball, cannonball dragging sandy bottom. Turn 180 deg & go with the down current w/o touching throttle. Your depth stays the same but your downspeed will change quite a bit.

Tom B.

(LongLine)

Absolutely true Tom, that statement does not apply to this type of fishing. Way to many variables.

[Smart Troll]

Many thanks to everyone who has commented in this message string. You have helped me to understand there are too many variables and too many fishing methods for the statement that you can determine down-speed by depth alone to be true in every situation. I pictured someone trolling along on a particular day who catches a fish and if that person put that same setup back exactly as it was then the same depth would also be the same down-speed.

 

But day to day all the other variables come into play and it is hard to duplicate the same line, same counter, same lure and so on. I now understand that you cannot always determine down-speed based on depth alone (only in the case where you are putting the same exact setup back exactly as it was) and you also cannot always predict the depth of your lures based on down-speed alone because the same variables come into play.

 

Depth and down-speed do have a direct correlation but I neglected to think about all of the other variables so thanks again for enlightening me.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Smart Troll

[Smart Troll]

Sorry, sometimes true but many cases just not true. example: Fishing Lakers - blades close to the ball, cannonball dragging sandy bottom. Turn 180 deg & go with the down current w/o touching throttle.  Your depth stays the same but your downspeed will change quite a bit. 

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

 

LongLine,

 

The first time I read this i was just focused on the fact you were using a Downrigger but when re-reading it it sunk in that you were dragging the bottom. Sorry it took me so long to get it...

 

Your scenario...dragging the bottom going against the current and you turn around so you are still dragging the bottom going with the current and there is no depth change you say.  Hahaha...lol! I can't believe I didn't get it the first time. I think we can all agree with that...once you get to the bottom your gear won't go any deeper no matter what you do.

 

Thanks for the humor...

[LongLine]

S-T: For salmon on Big-O your speed has to be right and your depth only has to be close. Salmon go all over the lake in search for the right food. 

 

Another simple case in point is with a floating lure. No weights, rigg'r or dipsey.  Go real slow - it goes to one depth.  Go faster it digs deeper.  Go real fast - it comes up.  Very possible to have one depth & two different speeds.

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[Smart Troll]

LongLine,

 

My main point in the original post in this thread is...if the speed is not right then the depth will NOT be close. If you are 20 feet above the fish at the "right speed" then you could be 50 feet above them going 0.5 MPH faster. I know they might sometimes run that far and bite the lure but I am betting if pressed you would agree that it is better to both be close and the right down-speed.

 

For the past two years my Pro-Staff and Smart Troll users have been telling me to develop a Probe with Speed and I would always tell them "If you duplicate depth then you duplicate speed"...but they were persistent (and often almost mad at me) so I did develop a Probe that attaches to your line and transmits Depth/Temp and Speed.

 

But, I have to admit that until this thread I still didn't really get the need for it because I pictured going out and trying different things until you catch a fish and then duplicate those conditions. In that case if you have the exact same setup and you let the exact same line out...if you adjust the boat speed until you duplicate the depth where you caught the fish then you have also duplicated down-speed.

 

What I didn't get is....change anything on that setup and now you have to learn all over again what depth that new setup runs at the "right speed". But...by measuring depth and SPEED you have the ability to target both a specific depth and speed at the lure. Now I see that instead of experimenting to get it right it is better measure to get it right.

 

I agree with every point you have made and I get it...that it is tough to experiment or control all of those variables.

 

Thanks for helping me get there!

[Dan1]

One variable is not in the realm of anyone's control. We as thinking, scientific, data collection beings, will never be able to count on repeatability of one thing...another beings brain. The fish. You can have it all perfect on 100 boats, and 100 other boats not so perfect. The results still depend on the fish. The fish is mostly creature of habit, thinks slightly, reacts mostly. How it reacts is based upon a lot of variables not related to speed, depth, direction, temperature or type of lure on what deployment. We capitalize on most of the habits to increase our odds. Kind of like playing roulette on a table with a biased wheel. The ball falls on a known number more often than not, and it wins most of the time...until the wheel is moved to a different table on another day. Another brain has changed the winning program, like the fish do. A lot about a fish action is related to the masses of its kind it swims with. Either laying out of temp reacting to nothing or opposite reaction spectrum, a feeding frenzy brought on by its piers like a riot. Even half the boats doing everything wrong except scaring fish...another science on avoidance..will be marginally successful when the feed bag is on. Getting a negative fish to react has as much to do with a fisherman's persistence as it does having data and presentations. Having the will to find that roulette wheel and bring the known data to win again.

Some days you will use that data and find that win of fish other days we will find that school and the bias is not there, but persistent trying will one day pay again using what we know, but you still will never really know without data, its communication with others,(THANKS Yankee Rick and others like him)....and persistence. In the end, the uncontrolled variable is a fishes brain that controls our success. 15000 dollars electronic equipment or not.

I like data, so I feel better having as much as I can afford to help me win, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes something rookie wins. That's what makes this fishing so fun on so many levels that anyone can play and win on their own level. Down speed?., if you don't have it, don't worry, at some point your lure is right and you are at a close speed, AND....the fish will be in a frenzy right where you are.

Mark

This basically sums it all up in my opinion. Well said, Mark.

[Gill-T]

Huge crazy-arse currents.  Ports of Oswego, off Devil's Nose, off Scotch Bonnet, from the Niagara to Olcott we get wicked currents.  The Niagara to Olcott in particular has two currents occurring simultaneously......the upper level Niagara flow and the sub-currents that come from the Northeast.  Add wind to the mix AND the fact that the power companies on the Niagara have to allow more water come over the falls for visitors to see......the river will rise and increase flow after 8:30 am and you can see you better know the down speed if you want consistent results.  This ain't bobber fishin'.