Would like to pick your brains

[JimB]

2nd year at this, and any luck we have is still mostly that...luck.

 

Trying to get a grasp regarding temps (both surface and rigger depth.   

 

I know that later in the season we usually get a thermocline, and I've learned how to find that (with the trusty subtroll) and I understand the concept of setting up a spread both above and in the 

temperature break.

 

What I don't have a clue about is fishing this time of year and what to look for temperature wise.   Obviously there won't be any type of thermocline set up this early. 

 

Last Saturday out of Sandy Creek we did pretty well with the Lakers.    Surface temps were 55-56 in 50 fow, and rigger temps were pretty stable at 40-41 regardless of depth.

 

Today we went out, and the screen was a desert.   Went from 35 all the way out to 130 fow, (5 hours of trolling)

with very few marks, and didn't move a rod.   Surface temps were down around 50-51, with rigger temps 41-43.   (It was actually warmer out in the deeper water).

 

I've read some of the recent reports regarding colder surface temps with the east winds, and people talking about fishing the "temp breaks".   

 

To sum up this ramble...

1) What surface temps produce this time of year

2) What type of temperature swings on the surface equal "temp breaks"?

3) What down temps work this time of year for Salmon?

 

Have a ton of other questions, but this should help me get started.

 

Thanks in advance for any insights!

Jim B

 

 

[Sk8man]

Much of the answer to your question will vary from year to year depending many seasonal factors such as the winter we had, how much available sunlight we've had, wind driven currents  and how they distribute. I've always looked at the Spring conditions as being a "guesstimation" game at best. For starters though it is good to consider water stratiification factors as basics - instead of stratifying or layering vertically it is often layered horizontally in the Spring before the thermocline forms. The water warms first in the shallows to any degree vertically beneath the surface and also at the very surface where the water isn't subject to extreme currents but here the wind plays a major role in mixing things up in place or transferring pools of warmer water acrossed the surface horizontally. Where the warmer pools meet with significantly colder water thermal breaks are established and they can often act as barriers or cordons for fish sometimes broken down by species and seemingly "trapping" within or at the outside edge the barrier so it is wise to exploit this by trolling along these thermal breaks weaving in and out of them. This is also true of "scum lines"  where debris is trapped by the wind and thermal conditions that are set up. These may be near shore or in bands out further so it is often fruitful to patrol around and if permitted (actual debris isn't problematic) weave through the edges of them.. This is especially effective for early season browns. Another thing to exploit with browns is their sensitivity to water temp.Often just a few degrees of warmer water (especially early in the season) such as that found around stream mouths or warm water discharges of power plants etc.and in the extreme shallows cruising for food  e.g. around docks or structure especially in bays on Lake O or shorelines of the Finger Lakes. Often they are found in the early morning hours or in the evening as they seem somewhat nocturnal and avoid bright light most of the time (e.g. they go deeper as the day moves on when it is sunny) regardless of water temperature. Lakers also look to the shallows in the early Spring but rather than temperature differences it seems to me it is more related to bait searching and bait availability because they are still usually scrounging the bottom areas and especially near where there are significant drop-offs or bottom structure as well as in the shallows. They are real "opportunists" and have a real varied diet and from time to time even scrounge up dead bait.

 

Usually the warmer temps produce this time of year but often that is where the bait is or nearby and usually if you can locate the bait pods that form in the Spring the trout and salmon are found nearby regardless of specific water temperature but fish also range great distances looking for bait especially the salmon so you may find them in the middle of nowhere out there too.

 

It is difficult to pinpoint the exact amount of temperature change that gives rise to horizontal stratification it can be as little as a couple degrees sometimes and larger amounts other times.

 

In my opinion looking for specific optimal temperature preferences vertically at this time of year  is like peeing in the wind....not productive. Looking for bait and thermal bars and breaks can be a lot more useful of your time and exploring the surface areas "prospecting" and running close in the points or structure with toplines,  and or boards and working them in and out and varying your trolling speed ranges especially near river mouths.

 

Others on here may have quite different ideas about it but this is my take on it based on my own experiences both on Lake O and the Finger Lakes.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Sk8man

[Jeremy Goodison]

If you trolled out of sandy this morning don't beat yourself up. We trolled 630 till 1130 and produced one laker in 220 fow on a dipsy out 220. We had decent screens around 175 fow making Alot 60 to the bottom but only took the one shot. That fish came in 39 degree water. We trolled south all the way in to 40 fow marking sporadic at best with one other release that came un buttoned as fast as got excited. We ran three riggers, two dipsy, one 200 copper, and a crankbait on a planer board. Went through every color, spoon size and color, flasher flies, etc. when we got to launch couple other boats caught one Less fish than our one fish. Now there will be someone who crushed them today but ide like to think today they just weren't hungry.

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[LongLine]

Lake Ontario has some very interesting thermal events.  This time of year fish can be found in basically 3 places. In shallow where warm tribs feed into it is where everyone loves to fish.  There are also pockets of warmer water scattered all over the surface out a little deeper.  These can often be seen as calm patches or stretches that are bounded by areas with small waves. 

 

Then there's the thermal bar.  Early in the year there's only one main one but later there's 3 or 4 lesser ones.  If you had gone out another 40 ft deeper today you would have hit the main thermal bar.  A thermal bar is a vertical wall of colder water.  The lesser thermal bars are known for scum lines.  They are not always parallel to shore.  Some stretches may run N-S. The lesser ones may only change 1 or 2 degrees.  The main one has 38-39 deg surface on the outside.  Most often, fish are on the colder side. 

 

When you hit a thermal bar, you need to watch you sonar to see what depth the fish are at. Today there were a lot of "slobs" down within 15 ft of the bottom.   When you hear guys have gone "off-shore" early in the year, this is usually what they're hoping to find.  Unfortunately the main thermal bar doesn't last too long and will probably be gone in another couple weeks.  When it disappears, the lake goes into transition and in a couple more weeks the thermocline will begin to set up.  Unfortunately the winds mess with it being set up, hence it may take a month or more to set up.

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

 

 

[Jeremy Goodison]

This is Good info, much appreciated. From 220 fow in to 60 fow the temp was pretty consistent on surface. . There was a scum line we went through in about 150 but we never fished with it simply went through it on the way in. When we were in 220 there was one boat out deeper but we decided to do a south troll and unfortunately, maybe , stuck to the game plan

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[ray koziatek]

http://coastwatch.glerl.noaa.gov/modis/modis.php?region=o&page=1&template=subℑ=a1.15129.1849.LakeOntario.143.250m.jpg

[ray koziatek]

http://coastwatch.glerl.noaa.gov/modis/modis.php?region=o&page=1&template=subℑ=t1.15126.1638.LakeOntario.143.250m.jpg

[ray koziatek]

the first pic is the 9th ,the second from the 6th  along with the other advise this is a good visual of what a shift in wind can do to the water ..the pic from the 6th showes a good "set up" condition near the south shore,tight plume from niagra river and other streams...the 9 th is more spread out fish in "Dime Size Pods" ,temps change,bait spreads out,..........you can be sucessfull with either condition ,but i have always found a tight well defined flow along shore line (from outer space) makes for easy fishing..

[JimB]

Awesome replies guys.    Waaayyy more to this than tossing a few downriggers on the back and heading out.

 

Been keeping a journal of conditions and results we find, so will add this to it, and keep learning from it.   

 

Longline, with "slobs" that deep, do you target the depth they are in, or will they rise to a bait?    Never been sure if I see marks at say 50, should I be set up at 50, or say 60 and 40?

 

Thanks so far for the info guys.    Great site, and great members.

[LongLine]

Ray gave you some good pictures of wind effects.  As to your question: Fish can see above them better than they can below them. Remember you'll have some blowback on your cable.  A lot of marks at 50 I'd probably set at about 54 and stack a line up 7-10 ft up. Probably mupp rig'd.   2nd rigg'r would spend a few minutes higher then a few minutes deeper.  If really long arches then I'd shorten leads.  (I probably won't stack late June)  One thing to remember is that there'll be a lot of clean screens this time of year but that doesn't mean the fish aren't there.  It only means you're not seeing them.  They may be very shallow in the water column even though you're out deep.  You have to be careful that you don't have everything under the fish.  That's very easy to do.  With a clean screen, I'll run 1 rigg'r in the 30-50 ft range, 2nd 10-30 range and have a board out to cover surface, searching for the fish.  A lot of marks on the bottom, then new game & "lower the boom."

 

H.I.H.

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[skipper19]

Watch for the birds when water temps are cold. Many times the birds are wheeling around an area the size of an acre of water. Generally it's an indication of feeding action in a warmer pod of water. Most of the time I have witnessed birds wheeling around and diving to the surface and not sitting on it, there has been salmon or trout feeding on bait fish there. Last year, while fishing the slam out of Olcott west, we ran into a pod of warm water being pinpointed by birds feeding on scraps. We trolled into the area and at 55 feet of water, the temp raised, we made a turn to run through again because we marked a huge pod of bait with hooks nearby. Adjusted our depth to match the bait and hooked up on a king that was one of our largest of the 7 we needed. The wind was east the whole week making it hard to find needle in the haystack temps.

Just another visual way of keying in on a warm pod early season. The bait will be there and if they are being attacked, the birds are not far from the leftovers.

[Sk8man]

Mark's post is a particularly valuable one both for fresh and salt water  - birds often indicate close proximity of bait and usually fish are there too or seeking it nearby. Sometimes despite knowing that we tend to overlook  or forget about it....good reminder

[Paul Czarnecki]

Here's the answer I just gave another gentleman with the same problem.

Instead of burning fuel trying to blunder into a fish by accident you should simply take a charter to see how it's done.

Several of us on here offer on the water seminars that would be invaluable to you and shorten your learning curve immensely.

You could spend the next ten years on here and on your own trying to catch a fish or, for around $650, you could see how it's done directly from a pro and start catching fish today.

We are having one of the best springs in years---there is no better time to learn than right now.

PM me and I'll tell you about the seminar package I offer and what you need to do. (My gift bags are usually pretty good too 😃) *shameless plug*

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