How to break the ice....

[FishingTheFL]

I have been trying to break the ice and catch the my first trout... so far no luck. We have been trying Seneca lake. Mostly pulling copper and jigging. I've got about 400 ft of copper on and let out about 350 to 370 ft fishing in 35 to 50 ft of water. I got a little Minn kota 30lbs troller to push me around and a fish finder to find structure and depth. Lure of choice has been Sutton spoon. I was recently given a heavier spoon by a guy at the docks in Geneva.

When we are not pulling copper I have been trying jigging with a buddy... cast a ahead, time it out so that it hits bottom in time to get a straight up and down jig... still no luck.

Working on getting a vertical probe for gauging temp in the column for jigging but speed depth and temp system is out of the question this year.

Trolling, I can't seem to find bottom.. jigging I can't seem to find fish(zoom flukes with 1oz jig head). Well, fish finder says there are fish there, other guys where going over same spot over and over again... gotta be fish there righ?

Can some one give me some pointers to catch one and break the ice? Do I need more line out to reach bottom pulling copper?

Any pointers are appreciated

[John Kelley]

Copper sink rates are supposed to be around 22' down for every 100' out, so you should already be dredging the bottom in the depths you have been fishing.  Are you only after Lake trout?  Rainbows can be caught trolling near the surface with spoons.  Good luck.

[FishingTheFL]

I didn't know that. I have been seeing some bigger fish on the surface early early in the morning. About 35 feet of water. To be honest rainbow, laker, Brown, salmon.... something besides bass pike perch or catfish....

[Skidplate]

You don't pull copper with Suttons pfluegers work great tie them to copper and u have to pull on them all the time.twin minnows work also put 10 feet of 30 pound mono for leader they have the own action just move you wrist a little bit from time to time.600 feet of copper will hit in 100 fow water dont go over 1.8 on your speed

[FishingTheFL]

I'm going to lay my line out and measure exactly what I got out. I know there is over 300 feet of the .45gauge wire from bass pro. I switched to a spoon a guy gave me at the dock this morning. He had a 14 lbs laker in his live well... ties it right to the copper. I had a 15 ft 6lbs mono... took that off cause he said to try it right to the copper.... I got out to late in the morning today. Tried trolling some by high banks. Then jigging out in front of Belhurts... 10:30 to 2 isn't idle I hear... usually I'm on the water by 4:30 5 am

[Skidplate]

Yes with copper spoons you tie it to the copper with twin minnows and flat fish u need leader so they will work

[FishingTheFL]

I told the owner from Sutton I was pulling copper. Trying to figure out how to post picture of lure.

[FishingTheFL]

Spoons I used... lighter hammered one is the one I mostly used. Just got the other from a local.

[Skidplate]

This is a pflueger

[Skidplate]

I didn't know Sutton made them ill have to get some

[Sk8man]

Sounds as though you've been using a lightweight Sutton spoon (resembling a flutter spoon in thinness with a fixed hook) which are in fact used to pull copper. First of all pulling copper correctly is almost an "art form" and is not necessarily the technique of choice for beginning trout fishermen and I am serious about that.....It is one of those things that most folks need demonstrated in person (often repeatedly) and even then the effective use of the technique is something developed over time. I've fished with, know, and have known some of the best copper people on the Finger Lakes and even after years and years of it catching hundreds of mainly lakers I don't feel it is my best tool in the arsenal in terms of competence.....so don't feel too bad if you're struggling with it   My hunch is that you were dragging the spoon right along the bottom with too much wire out so it wasn't operating effectively and it is easy to do especially if on soft bottom with a light spoon. Often the lightweight spoons are used on a mono leader at the end of the copper with a weight attached so that the bottom (and changes in it can be felt as you go along it. The trick whether with that setup or the use of heavier spoon such as the Pfleuger, Ace, Hopkins,  Bladerunner or many others is to get it to the bottom but to be bouncing it off the bottom so that the contact with bottom  is intermittent and this is very dependent on your boat speed. You are constantly feeling for the bottom and it's composition through the wire and making adjustments as necessary to keep from snagging up (a frequent occurrence) in both the letting out and retrieving of the wire and your speed ....they are integrally related. If this relationship is not maintained you could troll all day long day after day without catching a fish (mainly lakers but sometimes even a huge smallmouth or brown). You can also do this if you have too little or too much wire out and what you are feeling is the belly of the wire making contact with bottom but not the spoon.  I'll attach a pic of some of the spoons used for it.

 

At the extreme left column are the Hong Kong version of the Pfleuger #5 (can't locate my originals), next the original Pfleuger#4, and next the Ace #4 (Pfleuger imitation made of brushed finish stainless steel) and the gold Hopkins #388 spoons They are all relatively heavy spoons intended to be used by themselves for bottom fishing and usually tied directly to the copper with a small loop at the end (no swivel) so that you can feel bottom the best (the feel of the particular bottom characteristics transmitted directly up the wire). They can also be used with a mono leader but this is not commonly done by most folks.

 

At the right of the pic is the lighter weight Suttons (various sizes and shapes) and these are usually used at the end of a mono leader with weight suspended from the copper kicking up bottom material while the spoon "floats" slightly above it or used by themselves.

 

 

 

Jigging is another technique that takes time and practice to do correctly and effectively. Again, having someone demonstrate it that knows what they are doing can really speed up the learning curve for you. There are a number of very competent guides in the Finger Lakes that could probably help with it and it could be well worth the money.

Edited June 14, 2015 by Sk8man

[FishingTheFL]

I was thinking exactly what you said... I gotta be putting to much line out and dragging it so the lure isn't getting optimal presentation.... couple times I found mussels in the middle of the line... figure it had to be dragging unless those little buggers are swimming with the fishes grabbing my line. I've been trying to get my cuz buddy to take me out but he isn't into trolling so he won't set me up with the guy to learn. Hence trial and error.

[Frogger]

You got some great tips there from Les. Once you get the feel of jerking copper, you'll be able to tell when you get a zebra or weed on the hook 70 ft of water. I would even suggest using a twin minnow first. Someone already mentioned them but are a blast and easy to get the feel. Take 30lb leader minimum maybe 36-50 inches long. Tie one end to the twin minnow, no snap. Tie the other end of the leader to a bead chain, then tie your copper with a twist to that. Speed 1.5 to 1.7 no faster. Slower the better. Let out a 150-200 ft in 40 ft of water, just a guess but will get you close. More for deeper. Every few feet hold the copper with your hand and wait till you feel sharp ticks. This is your minnow hitting the bottom. This is what you want to feel, if it stops, let a little more out. Jerk every now and then to keep it clean. If it feels heavy like your dragging bottom you got too much out. Keep your bottom depth constant at first so you can make it easy for yourself. Once you get comfortable the depth changes are easier to manage. Just hang on, you'll know when one hits, hand over hand bring him in, if it's bottom, you'll know that quickly, don't try and hold on, you'll stretch it and break it or weaken it. Do this stuff first, then trying the jerking copper with Pfleugars will be a piece of cake. Let us know how you do.

Sent from my iPad using Lake Ontario United

[FishingTheFL]

I am considering a guide... keep shelling out gas money to catch nothing is getting rather tire some and costly...

[Sk8man]

Mike (Frogger) is exactly right. Here is what the Twin Minnows look like. You may be able to find them on Ebay or perhaps someone on LOU may be willing to part with some.

 

Another angle to consider to get your feet wet with trout is to go back to basics and top line for them because right now there are still trout of various species in the relatively shallow water. It doesn't take much in the way of equipment. You don't have to worry about Kings here on the Finger Lakes so if you have a rod and reel (even spinning etc.) with a couple hundred or more yards of 10 or 12 lb test and a ball bearing swivel (solid ring one) and perhaps a few large split shot. For lures you could get some Laker Taker spoons at Walmart (as much as I hate recommending them...they have them in stock). Gte one each of the green and orange combo and the green/silver and the plain silver ( about $15 for all three) or even some Cleos. These are lures that have a little weight to them so they will sink down a bit if you go deeper you can add some split shot to get a little deeper by putting a couple or three about 3-4 ft up the line from the lure. Start out in about 20 ft of water  and cruise around the outside edge of the lake or near stream mouths you may encounter working your way back and forth diagonally m and making some :s" turns. Run your lure out about 75 ft to start and then keep letting out line every once in awhile until your connect with fish out to a couple hundred ft of line and then start gradually taking up a few ft of line at a time until you connect. You can cover a lot of water that way "prospecting" for fish and when you find them stay with them in that particular area going  back and forth. look for bait along the way and work that area very hard the fish are usually nearby.

 

Addendum: Twin Minnows come with small pretty lightweight treble hooks (not real durable or strong) The ones pictured here I replaced the hooks with 1/0 Mustad stainless steel Siwash salmon hooks.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Sk8man

[FishingTheFL]

Actually one of the first mornings out I think I had a strike but I brought someone out with me and he thought he crossed my line... been going out by myself since. I do know where a very large school of sawbellies are. We saw a lot fish striking on the surface that first day out. Maybe I'll give it another shot out there with top line out the other side. Thanks for all the info. Looks like with the storms Ill be very busy cleaning up storm damage and won't be able to hit the water till next weekend. I'll keep everyone up to date.

[Skidplate]

Brewers sporting goods in Ovid has twin minnow,flat fish and heavy copper pulling spoons

[Sk8man]

That is a great tip Billy because that stuff can be hard to find any more.  Great Lakes Lures (here on LOU) also makes the best replica #4 Pfleuger type copper spoon I've seen in a very long time....it is perfect for the job

Edited June 15, 2015 by Sk8man

[jigstick]

Have you tried trolling cowbells and peanuts?  Hell i cant keep them in the water more than 10min without them getting clobbered.

[Skidplate]

I forgot to mention great lake that what in using. The single hook on the minnows as showed is les's pic is the way to go so you will have to get some its help keep it clean and I think better hook UPS better

[FishingTheFL]

Have you tried trolling cowbells and peanuts? Hell i cant keep them in the water more than 10min without them getting clobbered.

Nope never heard of this technique.. will try anything at this point. Can't get out till the weekend tho

[FishingTheFL]

I can't seem to find a source to get the twin minnows. What company makes them? Only ones I could find were vintage on eBay. Thanks.

[Sk8man]

FishingThe FL you have a private message

Edited June 15, 2015 by Sk8man

[FishingTheFL]

These are the twin minnows I found at my aunt's bait shop. Orginals. Uncle has been holding out.

Now to rigging. Les explained 30lbs leader with it tied copper. Is this the same as flat lining? Seems heavy when 6lbs test would better. Just wondering why heavy vs light.

Thanks.

[Sk8man]

You'll be fishing on and just off bottom....6 lb test and your lure will be history on your first encounter with bottom Flatlining and toplining are the same thing unless perhaps you are in a hospital setting

Edited June 20, 2015 by Sk8man