Broadheads..(Rage)

[TileMan Dan]

What is FOC?

[Nontypical]

What is FOC?

I've been wondering the same thing through the whole thread.

[Nautitroller]

Front of center, if you watch an arrow exit a bow in slow mo. It oscillates a lot, putting the extra weight forward in the arrow helps it maintain kinetic energy and fly with more energy and less oscillation, also oscillation has to do with arrow spine. Not a physics nut but it's would be a cool study for a high school kid to run numbers and come up with the optimal foc and arrow weight/ spine. Probably have a lot to do with the bow and how much of a hatchet cam it has too. ( Stored energy)

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Edited October 5, 2015 by Nautitroller

[Nontypical]

Front of center, if you watch an arrow exit a bow in slow mo. It oscillates a lot, putting the extra weight forward in the arrow helps it maintain kinetic energy and fly with more energy and less oscillation, also oscillation has to do with arrow spine. Not a physics nut but it's would be a cool study for a high school kid to run numbers and come up with the optimal foc and arrow weight/ spine. Probably have a lot to do with the bow and how much of a hatchet cam it has too. ( Stored energy)

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Thanks. I always figured the heavier the broadhead the harder it hit....but now it seems your front of centre and kinetic energy has to do with weight/balance from nock to broadhead. You learn something every day.

[buckboardjr]

I use the AMO method #1 from this calculator! http://archerycalculator.com/arrow-front-of-center-foc-calculator/

 

And here is some great info on the benefits of a heavy FOC for flinging fixxedblades in hunting and windy conditions. Lots of good reason to load up the front. Always keep in mind when you put all the wt. on the front you will most likely have to move up to a stiffer spine.

 

http://archeryreport.com/2010/09/arrow-foc-basics-calculate/

[Nontypical]

Why is that?

[skipper19]

Why is that?

It's a lot easier to push a wire than to push a rope. Sounds strange, but logical, and that's how a lower spine works against you to push weight forward arrows. The thrust generated by an excessively ramped cam in the shape of a "hatchet" will cause the low spine arrow to bend like the rope pushing some weight at the end going forward. High spine strength will lessen that bending like the wire pushing weight at the end going forward.

Less oscillating spine on thrust launch of the string equals less energy loss due to flex of the shaft. Less flight correcting by the fetching. Perfect straight flight is the ideal energy and velocity saving benefit going downrange on impact, thereby increasing penetration on the target.

I think...:unsure:..

[Chas0218]

It's a lot easier to push a wire than to push a rope. Sounds strange, but logical, and that's how a lower spine works against you to push weight forward arrows. The thrust generated by an excessively ramped cam in the shape of a "hatchet" will cause the low spine arrow to bend like the rope pushing some weight at the end going forward. High spine strength will lessen that bending like the wire pushing weight at the end going forward.

Less oscillating spine on thrust launch of the string equals less energy loss due to flex of the shaft. Less flight correcting by the fetching. Perfect straight flight is the ideal energy and velocity saving benefit going downrange on impact, thereby increasing penetration on the target.

I think...:unsure:..

 

That is another good reason to have a properly tuned bow less arrow flex and faster arrow recovery.

[shakenbake114]

Total chaos. Congrats on the bear. How big was it I must have missed the pic? I have also killed a bear. He dressed out at 347 and made pope and young. I would love to see a few pics

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[shakenbake114]

Oh and I must add it was with a rage

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[143447]

Proper arrow placement . no rage needed

[buckboardjr]

Why is that?

Think of it more aggressively and it will make sense. If you screwed a brick on the end of that arrow and still tried to shoot/accelerate it fast out of the bow, that heavy weight would resist movement , the arrow would probably flex so badly that it would break. With this in mind, this is why when you put a large amount of wt. up front, you may have to stiffen the spine of the arrow. On a sadder note most of the arrow charts only go up to 125gr choices on their spine charts. I do "comparison shopping" of their charts in regards to how their charts bump you from one spine to another as broadhead wts. change and make a guestiment of what spine will be needed when going from a 125gr to a 225gr. With quite a few people seeing the light in regards to the benefit of heavier arrows and ultra FOC arrows, it wouldn't hurt the arrow companys to make their charts to cover broadheads up to 325gr.

[Gill-T]

First kill with my heavy 500 grain Easton Axis arrows with 100 grain 4-blade Slick Trick last Saturday. At 20 yards, quartering away, arrow tucked behind last rib, broadhead stuck in far shoulder (lost the front quarter due to blood shot meat). Nothing earth shattering here as far as "bone-breaking penetration". Not much difference than my 325 grain arrow shafts I used to use. The proof will be on a broadside bone impact shot I guess.....and I try to avoid those at all costs. I am really pleased how well the heavier shafts shoot more accurately.

[hawkeye625]

Broke the bow out today to shoot. Little slow in hunting section lately so I thought I'd start something. Always shot fixed blades, but the outdoor channel and heavy ad campaign finally broke me down. Never could get my fixed blades to fly EXACTLY like my field tips. I picked up some Rage Hypodermic's and the practice head they give you fly's identical to my field tips..Gonna go for it.. Any others use these??

I was using the original style head long before rage bought the technology from rocky mountain (sniper) guessing 15 years or so.  Taken 20 or so whitetails, several ground hogs, grouse, squirrels and a few rabbits.  Never lost an animal because of malfunction.

 

In my opinion the advertising is the main problem with the head....not the design or performance.  I don't feel 40+ yard shots are high percentage, ethical shots, nor are shoulder or steep angles shots.  BUT you see it all the time on TV.  Can these shots be made, sure, but there are way too many variables to make them high percentage, lethal shots, and the average archery hunter has a hard time making those shots on paper, let alone a live animal.

 

Keep your heads sharp...practice as much as you can, aim for the rib cage at 25 yards or less and you will get good results, regardless of the design of your Brodhead.

 

In my small circle of archery friends, the guys that always ask for help tracking don't follow these simple rules.  The ones that need help butchering do..

[buckboardjr]

First kill with my heavy 500 grain Easton Axis arrows with 100 grain 4-blade Slick Trick last Saturday. At 20 yards, quartering away, arrow tucked behind last rib, broadhead stuck in far shoulder (lost the front quarter due to blood shot meat). Nothing earth shattering here as far as "bone-breaking penetration". Not much difference than my 325 grain arrow shafts I used to use. The proof will be on a broadside bone impact shot I guess.....and I try to avoid those at all costs. I am really pleased how well the heavier shafts shoot more accurately.

Congrats on your kill Gill-T. Sounds like you hit right where you needed to. I know lots of people love those Slick tricks and they really fly great for the guys with speed bows. As far as Ashby's recommendations for "bonebreaking penetration" they don't match his model. They aren't a "Cut on contact tip", The mechanical advantage of the incline slope of the blades are really steep, "Some of the steepest" and 4 blades are way harder to get through bone than 2. These 3 characteristics could have had some influence of not making it through the other shoulder. Just food for thought. Glad you put meat on the table.

[PeltHunter]

Anyone know of any place where you can get the old (last year) style Rage 3 blades?

[DJ 17]

Unfortunately I have to add I believe a negative rage story... I will try to keep it short.

 

Friday Night I had a really good buck chasing a doe towards me. In a field of weeds/goldenrod.  The doe goes through some thick stuff 15 yds from me in which there is one lane to shoot through.  It was thick enough that it took her nearly 30 seconds to negotiate it. I passed up a 35 yd shot at the buck thinking he will follow her trail because he is grunting like crazy, even heard him "roar".  She goes by me at 15yds.  He follows  a few seconds behind.  He enters the brush and I start to slowly draw. Somehow, and I still don't know how he gets through that stuff in maybe 2 seconds and catches me half drawn.   So he is obviously staring at me, after 20-30 seconds at half draw I have to finish the cycle or I'm done.  I get it back and he stares at me for probably another 1:30, by now he is getting nervous and turns and bounds away.  After 2 bounds I grunt and he stops quartering away slightly, I had ranged the doe by a bush earlier that was 37 yds and he was in front of that a bit so I shot him for 30 yds. As I let it go he began to wheel and turn.  Ended up hitting him high and back, but here is the rage part.  The arrow only went in about 5 inches! He obviously takes off and I can see the arrow flopping as he bounds away.  It didn't sound like it hit any bone, So I can't account for the lack of penetration at what I consider to be a reasonable shooting distance.

 

I let him lay overnight hoping/praying that I somehow hit the femoral artery ( yeah it was that bad a shot).  Went in at daylight with 3 guys helping.  Tracked him over 1000 yds total.  A lot of which was across standing hay ( no fun).  found ok blood on the other side of the hay field, but then hit a dead end when he entered the hay again.  The wind blowing 25 mph didn't help with leaves blowing everywhere and the hay moving as well.

 

After losing blood did grid searches for another 3 hours and came up empty.  I do honestly believe that he survived the hit, definitely hoping he did.  In the 1000yds he never bedded once.

 

I know I did things wrong in the shot sequence for sure, but as far as broadhead performance I can't comprehend why that it didn't penetrate at all??  There was absolutely nothing between me and him, I am shooting 68# with Easton Bowforce 400 arrows and it was a 100 grain Rage Hypodermic.  To say my confidence is shaken would be a large understatement.  Sorry it wasn't a short story.

[Nontypical]

Last weekend shot an 8 pointer at 15yrds pulling 65lbs, maxima 350's, the rage went in and stopped on the opposite side rib.

[Gill-T]

A nervous deer at 37 yards your arrow will never land where you intended.  If you can't tuck an arrow behind the last rib on a quartering away shot, then better stick with broadside only with expandables.  The broadhead companies showing severe quartering shots thru metal drums or plywood do an extreme disservice to the hunting public. 

[DJ 17]

He was at 30 yds and the amount of quartering angle was very small.  The fact that the arrow only penetrated a minimal amount without hitting any bone is what really concerned me about the broadhead. The placement was entirely my error but doesn't account for lack of broadhead performance.  I forgot to add above that I went home and hit the range and found out that my sight was 5" left at 30 yds which I obviously didn't know or I would have fixed it.

[dmd113]

Unfortunately I have to add I believe a negative rage story... I will try to keep it short.

 

Friday Night I had a really good buck chasing a doe towards me. In a field of weeds/goldenrod.  The doe goes through some thick stuff 15 yds from me in which there is one lane to shoot through.  It was thick enough that it took her nearly 30 seconds to negotiate it. I passed up a 35 yd shot at the buck thinking he will follow her trail because he is grunting like crazy, even heard him "roar".  She goes by me at 15yds.  He follows  a few seconds behind.  He enters the brush and I start to slowly draw. Somehow, and I still don't know how he gets through that stuff in maybe 2 seconds and catches me half drawn.   So he is obviously staring at me, after 20-30 seconds at half draw I have to finish the cycle or I'm done.  I get it back and he stares at me for probably another 1:30, by now he is getting nervous and turns and bounds away.  After 2 bounds I grunt and he stops quartering away slightly, I had ranged the doe by a bush earlier that was 37 yds and he was in front of that a bit so I shot him for 30 yds. As I let it go he began to wheel and turn.  Ended up hitting him high and back, but here is the rage part.  The arrow only went in about 5 inches! He obviously takes off and I can see the arrow flopping as he bounds away.  It didn't sound like it hit any bone, So I can't account for the lack of penetration at what I consider to be a reasonable shooting distance.

 

I let him lay overnight hoping/praying that I somehow hit the femoral artery ( yeah it was that bad a shot).  Went in at daylight with 3 guys helping.  Tracked him over 1000 yds total.  A lot of which was across standing hay ( no fun).  found ok blood on the other side of the hay field, but then hit a dead end when he entered the hay again.  The wind blowing 25 mph didn't help with leaves blowing everywhere and the hay moving as well.

 

After losing blood did grid searches for another 3 hours and came up empty.  I do honestly believe that he survived the hit, definitely hoping he did.  In the 1000yds he never bedded once.

 

I know I did things wrong in the shot sequence for sure, but as far as broadhead performance I can't comprehend why that it didn't penetrate at all??  There was absolutely nothing between me and him, I am shooting 68# with Easton Bowforce 400 arrows and it was a 100 grain Rage Hypodermic.  To say my confidence is shaken would be a large understatement.  Sorry it wasn't a short story.

I HAVE FOUND OR SHOT BUCKS WITH BOTH EXPANDABLE & FIXED BROADHEADS IN THEM FROM PREVIOUS HITS. THE THING THEY HAD IN COMMON WAS POOR SHOT PLACEMENT.TOO MANY HUNTERS THINK THE DISTANCE THEY SHOOT AT THE RANGE IS WITHIN THEIR RANGE & ABILITY IN THE WOODS. MOST HUNTERS PRACTICE AT THE WIDE OPEN RANGE WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE TO ACCOUNT FOR BRANCHES, TWIGS OR LEAVES. SO 37 YARDS THROUGH BUSHES & BRUSH AFTER AN EXTENDED DRAW MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN A WISE CHOICE.JMO

Edited October 26, 2015 by dmd113

[Gill-T]

Ah go easy on him DMD, he did say it was 30 yards not 37. EVERY bowhunter has had a bad hit. Great bowhunters are made not born.

[Total Chaos]

You said you hit high?? How high? Look at the anatomy of a deer and the spine will be 3" to 4" down from the top of the back. Then take the rage Hypo with a 2" cut, take half of that, 1" and you could hit 5" from the top of the back and still catch the spine and stop the penetration. I shot a doe last year almost straight down. I caught part of the spine and the shoulder blade with my Rage Extreme and the penetration was not great. I was shooting 70lbs and my 500 gr arrow. Amazingly the deer ran, it didn't break the spine or even damage it. I got the deer but was amazed that the arrow didn't get thru. Deer react and things in the body move and what looks like a decent shot really isn't. I don't know what happened with your buck and since you didn't recover it you won't know either but you hit something that caused it to stop the arrow. Meat and hide won't do it. Every experience is a learning one, good or bad.

Total Chaos

Edited October 27, 2015 by Total Chaos

[DJ 17]

NO LEAVES, BRANCHES OR TWIGS.  Since I guess you thought I wasn't feeling bad enough already, thanks for the extra kick while I'm down. 

[hawkeye625]

Sorry for your loss, it happens and it sucks when it does... but I wouldn't say it's a negative rage story, more a bad archery experience.  No one can say for sure that another type of head would've made much difference, but a couple practice shots would've let you know your sights were off 5", which admittedly was the real issue here.  Regular practice is essential throughout the season, even if it's just an arrow or two.  I'd also be looking into why your sights were off, loose sight, bent rest etc....just walking to a stand or pulling your bow up can cause things to move or get bent, maybe something got caught on a branch, or bumped on a tree....  also make sure your bow is still in tune, especially if you make the move to fixed blades, they are not as forgiving.

 

Not trying to kick a guy that's down, just trying to help for the future.  Also agree with Total Chaos...almost had to contact bone somewhere and nervous animals do react much faster than your arrow.  If you lost confidence in the rage, by all means try a fixed blade head, just be sure your bow is on target, tuned, and you have good arrow flight.  FYI your story made me take a couple shots in the yard last night before going on stand.  All was good, but you just never know.  Good luck out there and hopefully you'll get another crack at that buck, if he went 1000 yards without laying down and you weren't pushing him....he's still chasing does.