where are the salmon

[Steelman]

As a kid growing up when we had the august 15 opening date on the SR I fished it from that day on.  Until I was old enough to bow hunt that is.  Then I cut off the river and still do by sept 27th.   As far as I can remember there were always salmon in the river by end of august and by end of september I was pretty much burnt out on fishing for them anyhow.  It seems to me over the past 10 or so years  those early runs declined with an exception here and there.  Like 2013 we had a good early run but that use to be the norm, or so it was to me.  I never payed attention to the fin clipping back then unfortunately.  I would have to believe that you guys are correct that they were natural spawning salmon coming in early back in those days.  If this is the case then natural reproduction has declined drastically over the course of 35 years of so of fishing it.  Heck when I was first started fishing it the norm was a 6 foot piece of close line, a broom stick and a big ole snag hook for anyone who fished it.  But I also know that there was not dead salmon that had not spawned out back then either.  I also dont recall water levels in the reservoir being 8 or 12 feet below normal back then either from summer kayak water releases.  A few degrees is a lot, with a difference in the oxygen levels as well.   I find the coincidences a bit hard to ignore.  

Edited September 16, 2015 by Steelman

[King Davy]

The "Most" important factor of the Base Flow treaty that went into effect in the Mid 90's was to recreate the natural reproduction of aquatic insect life on the Salmon river. Up to that point only running the river on weekends had all but eliminated billions of natural food snacks for fishes in the system. Today as a true tail water fishery the bug life on the salmon river is second to none.

 

Two weeks ago I was fishing in the middle of one of the greatest most legendary hatches in the history of rivers. The "White Fly hatch"  Would never be possible without the base flows. Hey but who cares about some fly hatch. Of the many hatches that now occur on the SR the White Fly in it's size 14 and 12 (us fly swatters will understand this)....in it's nymph stage is like eating a four pound cheese burger chased with ham and a friend egg on top.  

 

Wild Trout and Salmon that are successfully hatched in this system by the millions must have these aquatic insects to feed on to even have a chance at becoming par, smolting and trying to leave the watershed into the open lake. DEC and the Feds have been seining the river for over 15 years each May and early June to determine the number of fingerlings that have hatched. We've all seen the large numbers from this effort . Normally anywhere between a 5 to 10 million successful hatched. However that has no baring on how many of those tiny inch long fish survive to the adult stage and return to the river. Yes the clip study produced percentage of Wild VS stocked but that can't estimate how many of all year classes of salmon are actually swimming around as returning adults.

 

I was at the Hatchery yesterday. On the board in the lobby is the egg take from last fall through what was taken this spring. DEC extracted some 4.2 million king salmon eggs.  They delivered 2.1 M hatched salmon to the lake either through pens or direct stock. We have known forever that harsh winters slow down the growth of all species in these hatchery's. So in winters like the last two, one could easily debate the size of the fish weren't as hearty as other years. And if you talked to DEC they could have easily held Salmon longer in the Hatchery (and in fact they did...I'll explain). BUT, for the pen programs if they didn't get them out there in April, NONE of those fish would have imprinted from the pens, and then the stakeholders wouldn't have been happy either.

 

My wife Lindsay is a licensed NYS River guide who runs a women's fly fishing seminar on the Salmon River every Spring/summer at the hatchery. This year was May 16 and 17. And all the direct stock fish were being held through that weekend ,....much longer then normal to get them up to size from the worst winter we've had in 100 years.

 

One thing we have to stop assuming is that DEC just grows fish and dumps them in robotically and uncaring or unaware of what the results will be. I have helped or witnessed the seining. The six week program starts up nearest the hatchery and works it's way down river to the estuary with the strategy that the fish are working their way to the lake as they migrate out. And the process is to see how they are making their way.  Again what you will see at the SOTL is last years results were spectacular. Might have been, or near a record hatch. WHAT? Ask anybody last year was a horrible year for river anglers targeting salmon. Yet those that came in were obviously very successful. These little fish were everywhere.

 

Early fish....there have always been early fish, even before the treaty. In fact while there were early fish, the heart of the run was Oct. to Nov, and in fact the snagging regs back in the 70's 80's and 90's had the date of snagging out till Nov 15....for a reason. Because there were fish in the system that late. Last year fish came in later , I think the same will happen again. Layman's take on that is when fish are scattered in every corner of the lake from a wild summer of winds current and temp, it's logical it takes them longer to find home. Before the treaty.... river only plumed out into the lake a couple days a week. River bank was nearly dry all summer  during the week. Now base flows...depending on weather like the 2.5 inches of rain they had last week, flows increase attract fish in warmer water,

 

OK  but it doesn't take many fish to collect 4.2 million eggs. It's highly conceivable that survival of wild and stocked fish aren't surviving as well for probably many reasons. And usually it is "Many" reasons. One would need a root cause analysis....and we'd probably discover many factors. Some controllable ...some not. For instance, we have an overbearing population of Gobies in the lakes AND rivers. They have no problem eating the heck out of a 1 inch salmon.  They could be a factor. HOT warm summer and fish arriving early that won't live to spawn ...a factor...but we can't control that. These fish have evolved both stocked and wild. Before clipping I was sure the early runners were wild fish...simply because they are much more adaptable after being born in the rivers environment.

 

I know long winded again....Like it or not, revenue or not...the Salmon River is a natural resource that any and all have the right to enjoy. So a bunch of kids with coolers full of beer and mom and dad and the kids four weekends a summer (that's all there is) have a right to have a day. And not just one day. The treaty has to include others or frankly there would be no treaty ...no treaty no base flow, no food for the baby fish, no wild adult salmon. And on severe drought summers they have canceled releases. The one for two week ago was slated for three full days at 750. They only ran it for two.

 

oh and there is this one other little matter...especially in a hot summer, when people are running a ton of electricity ....Brookfield is a power company they are in business to generate power, to be in business. They move water to create power.  If you equate the factors at the time that decisions are made on how to handle each stocking season, you will run into unavoidable circumstances out of your control that makes you...make a different decision. That's man VS nature.

 

The hatchery debate will always come down to MONEY and Government  and laws. High hurdle....need a strong intelligent professional lobbying group that is working in Albany every day. Why??? cause you have to get into the brain, heart and wallet of each and every elected official to tip the scales in your favor. Most folks on this board don't have that kind of time, or skill set.  You can pay to get those folks.....so all the clubs and pro associations would have to pony up.

[Rich s]

Spot on Davy !!

I as you have fished the river system for a very LONG time and everything you stated is pretty darn accurate . I have attended the seminars at the hatchery as well as the healing waters when Fred spearheaded the project ,quite sure we have shared much water together .

While we all complain or for better words , get frustrated , there is still no denying it is a heck of a fishery and we are so lucky to have that right here in NY !! Is there much more work to be done and much more research to do ? Absolutely !!! Invasives and the environmental elements are ALWAYS going to be a challenge !! I personally think the DEC is addressing these issues in the best ways possible . Can they just stock more fish ? Hell yea but its such a fine balance that you just can't throw more salt into the soup and think its going to be better .

I applaud you for the tireless effort you put forth in your postings . I know it must get old and tiring but please continue as education is the KEY .

Thank you

Rich

[Tall Tails]

How many of you guys have reached out to the Fisheries Manager in the region that you fish?  I just hung with one of them and he has not received a phone call complaining about the poor fishing...  Squeaky Wheels get the Grease!  Get active and make some calls, Attend local and regional meetings when they happen.  Call your own local state politicians, for some its an election year.  I realize some of you are from out of state, call the county tourism office in the regions that you fish tell them your hesitate to spend money in there region again. Get the Head Tourism Director on the phone tell him or her what is happening.  This is the only way we improve the situation.

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

I'm glad the late Summer Kayak water releases were brought up. I do believe Steelman has a valid point. There has been more than one Fall where the "eye up" was cited as a critical issue, and some believe its because of the Salmon being artificially induced into  running the warm river and roasting the eggs and sperm until the mid October egg take begins. The Coho number hasnt been met in several years, and the condition of the Chinook eggs has suffered--this is info directly from the DEC. If these artificial releases cant be discontinued, perhaps they could be all held mid Summer. Certainly the good of the fishery is more important than having a few extra early Chinnys to play with, that end up dead or having their eggs cook for 2 months. 

[skipper19]

Over 7000 views on this thread. Seems it could generate some stimuli in the right places in Albany. Too bad they can't get to see how much this subject is being discussed.

Would it do any good to introduce them to the site and this topic?..I wonder.

[Missdemeanor]

Skipper.....I sent Senator Robach an email with a link to this thread....

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[Rich s]

Capt Vince,

 Please believe that I respect your insight and value your knowledge as well.. Understand I was a trib guy for 35 years and am a greenhorn to the open lake fishing this season.. We struggled hard out there, we seen tons of bait as you pointed out .. We did not see predators like I thought in these bait pods so I'm confused as much.. I'm learning, your experienced so I try and gather as much info to make things more successful.  

Only from my trips and experiences can I report from..

Gobies : We caught tons while jigging for smallmouth, in the little SR & the lake itself..

Lakers: we seemed to mark lots of lakers once we started looking for them, we didn't however target them like I should have

Honestly, for a fisher like me , I'm ok with lake trout and see that they will get giant feeding on gobies .. How do you control invasives  other then predators, enforcement  or treatment.. Seems many hands are tied in many ways other then natural predators.

 

As for the tribs issue,

Man , I have seen hoards of salmon belly up in that river from Aug on ever since I have been fishing there in 1980.. Way before recreational releases or min flow agreements.. Yes , even after the salmon stocking reduction was cut in 1/2..

You must realize there are years when the environmental elements become out of our control. The timing of the salmon entering the river is also pretty much in the natural cycle control as well.. Do I think the Labor day releases have an effect on some fish entering , yes.. is it a factor, absolutely not.. It is such a small percentage that it has no bearing on the total sum..

As Davy stated, the releases have been cancelled or curbed in the past, well , like last year..   

The Great Lake and all it's bounties are for everyone to enjoy, not just us fish heads.. Those releases (4 I believe) are trivial to the fishery..  

Yes there was issues with eye up, I'm sure there have been others in the past as well but I don't believe the over all stocking numbers were effected..

Best place for those answers is to contact the hatchery direct.. Get to the source..

 

Sorry to sound lopsided and in no way is it meant to.. I value both lake and trib sides information equally..

Thanks :

Rich

[Fishtails]

Unless an individual joins LOU they won't be able to view this thread. Perhaps it should be moved to open lake discussion?  

 

This has been a truly educational topic. Thanks to all who have contributed. 

[Paul Czarnecki]

I don't imagine Taking all Spring and Summer months the Juvenile Kings is helping at all! The charter captains are the biggest problem out there! They need to produce for clients so they run out to the deep water and put them on the age class Kings that should be put back! The clients all want to bring fillets home ! And its tough to blame them considering what they are paying per pound!

Why not change size limits around or put a slot in place! At least control all the Juvenile fish being caught and killed! This of course is just my Opinion

Most idiotic (and totally false) statement I've read on here in a long time.

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[Silver Fox]

Most idiotic (and totally false) statement I've read on here in a long time.

I was gonna reply, but I figured I'd give you time to see it. Lol

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silverfoxcharters.net

[Fat Trout]

Most idiotic (and totally false) statement I've read on here in a long time.

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I wouldn't go to idiotic.  There are just different perspectives and some folks are only part of one side so they only see that one side.  We all just need to understand there is a lot to understand about what goes on.  His comment comes in as sort of the same tributary fishing vs lake fishing sort of comment.  I fish both the lake and river and have done so for a long time.  

 

I always love the tributary guys who bust balls about keeping trout from a stream.......(lake guys too who point at the tributary guys).  I've told river guys....You should see what leaves in white coolers daily from the boats without even a second look.  I've also told them that is can be hard as hell to sucessfully release a fish from a large boat especially in the summer.   There are also scenes of complete and total destruction in streams when browns / steelies go into some smaller tribs.  I've seen things I choose to forget.

 

Its a put and take fishery....bottom line.  And yes cooler loads of fish do add up.     This spring was pretty awesome as I understand from Rochester & west for kings.  I read here or somewhere that someone knew someone who chartered who had put 700 kings in the box.....700!!!! and that was by like June or so.   Cut that in half for the bullcrap factor and thats still a lot of fish.  For the average lake user (be it ignorant or educated to the lake), hear large numbers like that from one boat and know that there are lots of lake users (Rec. and Charter)  from Niagara to Henderson and it doesn't take a math wizard to start to formulate some potential catch numbers (and opinions).

 

I'll add that I kept hearing about how good the 2 year class was and know a lot of guys were finishing out their trips searching for those while the lockjaw matures were hard to come by.   I have to admit I started to wonder how next years class will really be if it started out great but got pounded.   I guess we'll see.

 

Just saying.  

Edited September 17, 2015 by ktdishinger

[Gill-T]

700 kings X 100 charter captains = 70,000  (catching/keeping 2 and 3 yr olds) = 70,000 kings out of 3.5 million stocked + 5 million naturals? x 2 year classes= 17 million salmon available, which translates to charter captain's take of approx 4% of available 2 and 3 year olds swimming around (in a vacuum).  Check my math but I don't think Charter take is the issue......we are missing MILLIONS of salmon.

[Rich s]

700 kings X 100 charter captains = 70,000  (catching/keeping 2 and 3 yr olds) = 70,000 kings out of 3.5 million stocked + 5 million naturals? x 2 year classes= 17 million salmon available, which translates to charter captain's take of approx 4% of available 2 and 3 year olds swimming around (in a vacuum).  Check my math but I don't think Charter take is the issue......we are missing MILLIONS of salmon.

 

Geesh, the cormorants ate well.. LOL 

millions missing ? I don't know.. as a trib guy we always said all the trout went out in coolers and the salmon went to the landfill with pitchforks and dump trucks..

I'm curious how this seasons and next spawning runs play out before I sell the boat.. Heck, I still ain't sellin

Edited September 17, 2015 by Rich s

[Fat Trout]

700 kings X 100 charter captains = 70,000  (catching/keeping 2 and 3 yr olds) = 70,000 kings out of 3.5 million stocked + 5 million naturals? x 2 year classes= 17 million salmon available, which translates to charter captain's take of approx 4% of available 2 and 3 year olds swimming around (in a vacuum).  Check my math but I don't think Charter take is the issue......we are missing MILLIONS of salmon

Yeah I hear you  but we all know only a fraction become adults.   Fishing the salmon river I'm fishing the primary return stream.  There just aren't  millions of salmon going  up that sucker.....not even a half mil....I can assure you of that.  Jeeze last year they were having a hard time getting the 2K hens they needed at the hachery to fill quota. 

 

Just to clarify too...I really wasn't trying to make it a charter comment.  Only that there are a lot of perspectives.  Your math helps too but as you're saying, where the heck are they going.

Edited September 17, 2015 by ktdishinger

[Gill-T]

A two year blip is all IMO.....don't sell the boat.  Even with productivity down in the ecosystem due to two bad winters back-to-back, Lake Erie keeps dumping her load into Ontario.....she will recharge.  Good times will return.

[Fat Trout]

I agree....everything is a cycle.    No selling here.....I'm back in with a new boat this year after 3-4 years off after my father passed.  I river fish but I love the lake.  

[Gill-T]

Yeah I hear you  but we all know only a fraction become adults.   Fishing the salmon river I'm fishing the primary return stream.  There just aren't  millions of salmon going  up that sucker.....not even a half mil....I can assure you of that.  Jeeze last year they were having a hard time getting the 2K hens they needed at the hachery to fill quota. 

 

Just to clarify too...I really wasn't trying to make it a charter comment.  Only that there are a lot of perspectives.  Your math helps too but as you're saying, where the heck are they going.

 

 

The numbers are just a perspective to show how charter take represents a very small part of the pie.  Disease, predation (think about all the hungry Coho, Lakers and Browns waiting for the fingerlings to come out of their port of dispersal every spring !!!!), natural disasters such as floods or droughts, lampreys etc. etc.

[Rich s]

the 5 mil naturals is a hypotheses.. They IMO do not actually count 5 million salmon in a sine..

Do I personally believe the lake trollers take a large portion, yes .. 4% , eh maybe I'd put that higher from a laymen ..

River guys take the harvest of returns.. If the point is returns are low, river guys blame the lake guys.. If the Lake harvest is low, lake guys seem to think the overall numbers are low.. Do I know who is correct, hell no.. I got my but handed to me out there this season and blame only myself for not researching more on habitat, movements, currents & weather patterns, overall lack of experience.. Should I be butting in this conversation ? Ah, maybe because I have been involved in the fishery for quite some time from mainly a walkers side and now going deep..

It's a balance , IMO and everyone moves along the beam.. to keep things in check is why we have biologist and fishery managements ..

I'm just some guy trying absorb the fishery as best I can understand and enjoy the opportunities it offers..  If I were a stakeholder who's livelihood depended on the system , then I would make sure I have all the information possible   

Thanks Folks:
Rich

[Fat Trout]

The numbers are just a perspective to show how charter take represents a very small part of the pie.  Disease, predation (think about all the hungry Coho, Lakers and Browns waiting for the fingerlings to come out of their port of dispersal every spring !!!!), natural disasters such as floods or droughts, lampreys etc. etc.

I just have to respectfully add that that the "cooler take" recreational and charter is taking from a smaller percentage which are those fish who passed all of the predation and other issues and became viable to catch and keep.   Not 70,000 out of millions but something smaller.  

 

I remember a thread on here a few months back, perhaps last fall where there was a pounding focus on tributary impact with browns.  Lake guys pointing out the trib impact.  

 

These numbers are what keep us guessing.   Be it browns, kings, steelies or lakers, dead fish don't get caught again.   I think everyone can agree on that

[Rich s]

Funny you say browns,

Up to 2009 was a phenomenal tributary (SR) brown trout fishery for myself .. I haven't seen it near as close since..  Funny thing is "I" blamed the lake harvest.. Who knows.. I have caught 2 browns on the lake this year.. 1 in the 15lb range in June and the other in 5lb range in Aug..

[ITS A FISHAL]

And to think, this thread was created by someone who made this his first post. Good question if you ask me. Created a large forum. It's good to see and hear there are people who still care and have a love for this fishery. I've got friends in high places. Let me see what I can come up with. Thanks for everyone's post of concerns and opinions. Hopefully all this expression will make a difference. Keep it up.

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[Patriot]

WOW.    Well, in the meantime I hope contingency plans are being made to gather sufficient eggs. With the warm late Summer temps and reports of few fish in the SR system the time is now to plan. With returns ultra low, the targets that do enter the SR will be under seige. Heres to hoping the NYSDEC is proactive.  

I'm wondering if the feds would shut the sr down, if returns are not high enough to gather eggs?

[King Davy]

Gill your math is great if the numbers in your equation are correct. Less then 10% of the stocked and wild fish are making it to adult sexually mature stage. Actually a lower number has been the norm since the start of this whole fishery. When it comes to numbers they HAVE to be accurate. We wouldn't have any kind of predator to prey imbalance as people are wary of if we had those numbers of salmon in LO. It's just not the case. Of the three year classes take the 2.1M that goes it...for round numbers sake let's say 10 M fry hatched in all the lake....that's 12 million salmon in one year class. That's 1.2m if 10 % survived, and 600K at best if the normal 5% survived. it's highly conceivable that the number is much closer to 5%....discount the YOY cause nobody is counting them as a target, now you are probably dealing with 1.2 M total 2/3 YO targets in the entire lake.

Mix in harvest by lake and trib anglers, fish that die who are handled and released, death by lamprey....cannibalism, add in two outrageous winters that may have killed many, toxic alewives and the number is even lower.

My point is, we all have to have a realistic understanding of the true numbers we are dealing with. Not what got stocked or what hatched. That's at the starting line....a fraction of them make it to the finish line....

and then Gill you said it best.....don't sell the boat and the tackle, we've had two really bad hands,(winters)that we'd all fold in high stakes poker.....Got to hang in there. And play the next hand.

Not to be too light hearted...but this flashed at me.....much like the cows asking you to eat more chikn'...

See a Salmon with a sign painted on it's side...."eat more lake trout"

[Patriot]

700 kings X 100 charter captains = 70,000  (catching/keeping 2 and 3 yr olds) = 70,000 kings out of 3.5 million stocked + 5 million naturals? x 2 year classes= 17 million salmon available, which translates to charter captain's take of approx 4% of available 2 and 3 year olds swimming around (in a vacuum).  Check my math but I don't think Charter take is the issue......we are missing MILLIONS of salmon.

Remember too that (so they say) only 10-15% survive to adulthood