Same story on Lake MI as Lake O

[rolmops]

Classic liberal Matt. They stick out like baboons arse.....

silverfoxcharters.net

Interesting how fingerpointing and insulting is supposed to be funny and smart sounding

[Silver Fox]

Probably only a couple of you not laughing.

silverfoxcharters.net

[stan]

Kings down 75% Lake Michigan 

 

http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/09/29/salmon-population-plummeting-lake-michigan/73032260/

[rolmops]

Following this thread there are a few things that are not clear. It seems that most contributors think that the DEC is supposed to make Lake Ontario into a huge source of income for the fishing,chartering and tourism industry. But what happens if conservation of the health of the lake does not increase or maybe even lowers the value of the lake as a source of income? Does that mean that the DEC or the Government is lazy or evil or hates upstaters or whatever? Or does it mean that maybe the DEC does exactly what it is supposed to do,but it hurts a certain industry? As for Lake Ontario powering a huge tourism industry of a billion dollars revenue (not profit) or maybe more. Well that is very nice, but, In the overall NYS budget that is really just spit in a bucket.

Accusing the DEC of not doing its job,requires a specific definition of what the DEC is supposed to do and not an opinion about what it is supposed to do.

It also requires factual information and proof of these facts.

At this point in time the DEC has a lot of information which it  tries to work with in order to make the right decisions. Vince may have his observations and he may have his opinions about these observations. He may be spot on,but without the proper backup of proof, he may be drawing the wrong conclusions.

I think that instead of attacking the DEC and accusing them of being politicised we should try to work with them and help as much as we can instead of attacking them. Mainly because these attacks will push the DEC into the arms of politicians, where the DEC should be far away from politics doing what it is supposed to do.

Peace, also to people who like to stare at baboon rear ends

Edited September 30, 2015 by rolmops

[spoonfed-1]

Following this thread there are a few things that are not clear. It seems that most contributors think that the DEC is supposed to make Lake Ontario into a huge source of income for the fishing,chartering and tourism industry. But what happens if conservation of the health of the lake does not increase or maybe even lowers the value of the lake as a source of income? Does that mean that the DEC or the Government is lazy or evil or hates upstaters or whatever? Or does it mean that maybe the DEC does exactly what it is supposed to do,but it hurts a certain industry? As for Lake Ontario powering a huge tourism industry of a billion dollars revenue (not profit) or maybe more. Well that is very nice, but, In the overall NYS budget that is really just spit in a bucket.

Accusing the DEC of not doing its job,requires a specific definition of what the DEC is supposed to do and not an opinion about what it is supposed to do.

It also requires factual information and proof of these facts.

At this point in time the DEC has a lot of information which it  tries to work with in order to make the right decisions. Vince may have his observations and he may have his opinions about these observations. He may be spot on,but without the proper backup of proof, he may be drawing the wrong conclusions.

I think that instead of attacking the DEC and accusing them of being politicised we should try to work with them and help as much as we can instead of attacking them. Mainly because these attacks will push the DEC into the arms of politicians, where the DEC should be far away from politics doing what it is supposed to do.

Peace, also to people who like to stare at baboon rear ends

 

And your backup of proof and fact is?

Nice speech but it is filled with opinion with nothing to substantiate those opinions.

 

Thrillseeker has been heavily involved with this fishery a hell of a lot longer than you.

Edited September 30, 2015 by spoonfed-1

[rolmops]

They do the netting and the testing and the counting and the lab research, really nobody else does.

[spoonfed-1]

They do the netting and the testing and the counting and the lab research, really nobody else does.

 

And Vince doesn't posses enough knowledge about this fishery or spend enough time on that lake to know whats going on?

How long have you been on the lake?

 

Unfreakin believable is all I got to say.

Edited September 30, 2015 by spoonfed-1

[rolmops]

What will you say when maybe tomorrow the DEC publishes a study proving that a mutation in the alewife genetic makeup causes high mortality in 1 year old salmon when they are under stress ?

[Gill-T]

They do the netting and the testing and the counting and the lab research, really nobody else does.

Rollie, the DEC has based it's Alewife census on Lake Ontario based on the same trolling transects that were used when the census began....in 1975? FACT

meaning they are running the exact same GPS/loran coordinates year after year for population comparison. FACT

The food web has changed in the great lakes due to invasive species negative effects. FACT

The food web in Lake Ontario is more concentrated in the Niagara flow due to the Eutrophic water coming from Lake Erie. FACT

The majority of Alewife are concentrated in the band of productive "green water" flowing along the south shore for most of the year. FACT

By following traditional netting transects, the DEC/FWS/OMNR have been underestimating the population of Alewife in Lake Ontario because they are spending too much time netting in water without alewives for much of the season. FACT

After bringing this matter to the attention to Steve LaPan/DEC and FWS employees at the state-of-the-lake meeting this spring they stated on the record they had to remain true to the original netting transects. FACT

After the meeting concluded, I spoke to a few officials and off the record they agreed the lake has changed and the trolling census was not as reflective of the alewife population today. FACT

Fish are not making it to maturity as shown by historically poor numbers caught off the piers, in the rivers. FACT

The DEC are reactive and not proactive. FACT

We aim to change that. FACT

[Missdemeanor]

Rollie, the DEC has based it's Alewife census on Lake Ontario based on the same trolling transects that were used when the census began....in 1975? FACT

meaning they are running the exact same GPS/loran coordinates year after year for population comparison. FACT

The food web has changed in the great lakes due to invasive species negative effects. FACT

The food web in Lake Ontario is more concentrated in the Niagara flow due to the Eutrophic water coming from Lake Erie. FACT

The majority of Alewife are concentrated in the band of productive "green water" flowing along the south shore for most of the year. FACT

By following traditional netting transects, the DEC/FWS/OMNR have been underestimating the population of Alewife in Lake Ontario because they are spending too much time netting in water without alewives for much of the season. FACT

After bringing this matter to the attention to Steve LaPan/DEC and FWS employees at the state-of-the-lake meeting this spring they stated on the record they had to remain true to the original netting transects. FACT

After the meeting concluded, I spoke to a few officials and off the record they agreed the lake has changed and the trolling census was not as reflective of the alewife population today. FACT

Fish are not making it to maturity as shown by historically poor numbers caught off the piers, in the rivers. FACT

The DEC are reactive and not proactive. FACT

We aim to change that. FACT

Sent from my VS980 4G using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[KilliansRed]

All I know for sure is that we cant change anything by bickering at each other, we all want the same thing. More fish and more of those fish making it to maturity. The question that needs to be asked is what can the average salmon fisherman do about it seeing as the DEC isn't doing much?

[rolmops]

Rollie, the DEC has based it's Alewife census on Lake Ontario based on the same trolling transects that were used when the census began....in 1975? FACT

meaning they are running the exact same GPS/loran coordinates year after year for population comparison. FACT

The food web has changed in the great lakes due to invasive species negative effects. FACT

The food web in Lake Ontario is more concentrated in the Niagara flow due to the Eutrophic water coming from Lake Erie. FACT

The majority of Alewife are concentrated in the band of productive "green water" flowing along the south shore for most of the year. FACT

By following traditional netting transects, the DEC/FWS/OMNR have been underestimating the population of Alewife in Lake Ontario because they are spending too much time netting in water without alewives for much of the season. FACT

After bringing this matter to the attention to Steve LaPan/DEC and FWS employees at the state-of-the-lake meeting this spring they stated on the record they had to remain true to the original netting transects. FACT

After the meeting concluded, I spoke to a few officials and off the record they agreed the lake has changed and the trolling census was not as reflective of the alewife population today. FACT

Fish are not making it to maturity as shown by historically poor numbers caught off the piers, in the rivers. FACT

The DEC are reactive and not proactive. FACT

We aim to change that. FACT

The golden rule in research through statistics is isolating  one factor . This can only be done while leaving all other factors unchanged.

In 1975 the alewives were where they are now too. so they have always underestimated them.

I agree that the changes made by nature should be addressed, but in co-operation with the DEC not against them.

The DEC should be reactive (but fast). In this case being pro-active can be disastrous.

If in co-operation with the DEC we can change their policy,that would be great. If we go head to head against the ones who are supposed to the guardians of our lake ,that would not be very good at all.

Edited October 1, 2015 by rolmops

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

All I know for sure is that we cant change anything by bickering at each other, we all want the same thing. More fish and more of those fish making it to maturity. The question that needs to be asked is what can the average salmon fisherman do about it seeing as the DEC isn't doing much?

There is much happening behind the scenes. In the Western basin we have been concerned with the low Fall returns for several years. We have tried the diplomatic approach and all we have encountered is stall tactics. When there was funding for another hatchery it was met with road block after road block. This was very telling. Those of us actively working with the DEC staff who get their hands dirty do not blame them. We know its at the top of this broken State.  There is much more than bickering going on and I and many others have admitted there is much more we can do to improve things--starting with making sure the cormorants don't get all the released Salmon and trout. 

[Gill-T]

Rollie, many of us have been working "with" the DEC by voicing our concerns at the state-of-the-lake meetings.....what else can we do? At the meeting this spring in Lockport I started talking to DEC official about the LOLA report that accesses the food web on Lake Ontario and is published every four years. I could tell after awhile by the fact that the gentleman's eyes started swim a little that he had no idea what I was talking about. I asked him if he know what the LOLA report was and he admitted he had no clue. Really there are only a select few that are running the show. The rest of the DEC just follow along and keep their nose clean. The "select few" like to think they know best and discount the opinions of stakeholders that are on the water most of the year. It is with the "select few" that our source of frustration lies. Give us reasonable governance of the resource and this thread does not exist. Believe me I have much better things to do with my time than dealing with this issue.

[GAMBLER]

They do the netting and the testing and the counting and the lab research, really nobody else does.

Their netting, and other research lead them to believe the bait population could handle 300,000 more very long living lakers a year. That's the main gripe. Why not salmon? If the alewives mutated and are affecting one year old survival, the simple answer is STOCK MORE! The more you stock, the more will survive.

[KilliansRed]

There is much happening behind the scenes. In the Western basin we have been concerned with the low Fall returns for several years. We have tried the diplomatic approach and all we have encountered is stall tactics. When there was funding for another hatchery it was met with road block after road block. This was very telling. Those of us actively working with the DEC staff who get their hands dirty do not blame them. We know its at the top of this broken State.  There is much more than bickering going on and I and many others have admitted there is much more we can do to improve things--starting with making sure the cormorants don't get all the released Salmon and trout. 

 

I know that the DEC can only do so much and they do a good job with what they have. Funny you mention cormorants because I see a lot hanging around Wilson and Olcott in the early spring and then they almost completely disappear by June. I never made the link that it when the cormorants are around there are pens full of salmon and trout in the harbor.

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Rollie, the insinuation that this is all about financial gain could not be further from the truth. Actually, it's been quite the opposite. I have been bombed with inquiries because of the slow fishing/low King numbers. Guys who just want to get their lifetime friends or ailing relative hooked up before they head home. Anyone who knows us knows we weren't short of business. No, it's about being there as a kid when it was a wasteland and watching it rise above the ashes. I have never lived more than 8 miles from the south shore. There may come a day when the carrying capacity of pelagics is reduced, but that day is not now.

[skipper19]

Maybe the state should have implemented the idea of a salmon fishing stamp for lake Ontario and tribs. It was thought of. Then see if financial gain would have had any luck over the Fed's initiatives.

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

I know that the DEC can only do so much and they do a good job with what they have. Funny you mention cormorants because I see a lot hanging around Wilson and Olcott in the early spring and then they almost completely disappear by June. I never made the link that it when the cormorants are around there are pens full of salmon and trout in the harbor.

Actually K Red, young Bass anglers recently told me they watched the cormorants stealing 12--14" Largemouth from the shallows of Wilson harbor. Others had told me they have decimated the Greece ponds and Braddocks of Largemouth and there is still many hanging around there. There has been documentation of cormorants relentlessly diving on Lake Ontario stockings and thats got to stop.

[GAMBLER]

On spoonpullers there was a photo of HUNDREDS of cormorants off the Toronto island.  The photo was unreal.  There has been a big group of cormorants on Long Pond in Greece.  They have been roosting in a dead tree along the parkway.  Sad to see!

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Maybe the state should have implemented the idea of a salmon fishing stamp for lake Ontario and tribs. It was thought of. Then see if financial gain would have had any luck over the Fed's initiatives.

Sadly Skipper, our efforts to do that many years ago were again met with DEC opposition. Retired insiders told us it was because they did not want the stakeholders and user groups to think they had more of a say in management decisions. Sound familiar?

Many of us have been cooperating 100% with the DEC and Fed field techs regarding the clipping study. We are hopeful that this info/data is truly going to be used to improve things and not just yet another delay tactic.

[salmonboy41]

Actually K Red, young Bass anglers recently told me they watched the cormorants stealing 12--14" Largemouth from the shallows of Wilson harbor. Others had told me they have decimated the Greece ponds and Braddocks of Largemouth and there is still many hanging around there. There has been documentation of cormorants relentlessly diving on Lake Ontario stockings and thats got to stop.

This summer I talked to some ppl form the DEC that where taking water samples in Wilson Harbor and I told them that I thought the Harbor may have a water issue because pan fish population in the Harbor is WAY down.  After telling them this, they told me that the issue is the cormorants are cleaning out all of the Harbors on Lake Ontario.

[skipper19]

Sadly Skipper, our efforts to do that many years ago were again met with DEC opposition. Retired insiders told us it was because they did not want the stakeholders and user groups to think they had more of a say in management decisions. Sound familiar?

Many of us have been cooperating 100% with the DEC and Fed field techs regarding the clipping study. We are hopeful that this info/data is truly going to be used to improve things and not just yet another delay tactic.

Yes Vince, it does sound familiar! Just like the first sentence in your reply to Rollie. Financial gain is only an after thought. A hand out is much easier...

[rolmops]

Yes Vince, it does sound familiar! Just like the first sentence in your reply to Rollie. Financial gain is only an after thought. A hand out is much easier...

Please explain this a bit more. I have no idea what you mean.

As for me "insinuating" that money is the driving factor in putting pressure on the DEC, that is not what I wrote. I mentioned this as a possibility and a question worth asking.

The only reason for singling out Vince as an example is that he comes up with very clear ideas,opinions,and suggested solutions based on his experience.

My main argument for trying to keep the politicians far away from the DEC is based on what happened to the cod in the Gulf Of Maine. Politicians started trying to get more votes and donations by undermining the Massachussetts department of the environment and allowing the different fishing industry groups to destroy what was left. As a result the cod stocks are now severely depleted and The Gulf Of Maine is closed for the Cod fishery

Edited October 1, 2015 by rolmops

[skipper19]

Please explain this a bit more. I have no idea what you mean.

As for me "insinuating" that money is the driving factor in putting pressure on the DEC, that is not what I wrote. I mentioned this as a possibility and a question worth asking.

The only reason for singling out Vince as an example is that he comes up with very clear ideas,opinions,and suggested solutions based on his experience.

The response was to Vince in agreement about the underlying factors that presumably direct the DEC and decisions they make. Revenues not being one of the highest of those factors, as you pointed out earlier when said the DEC is a not for profit agency of the state government. As for the what Vince was saying, my interpretation what he meant that the DEC is in the opposite side of the financial gain spectrum, and more in the camp of their constituents...ie. state and federal leaning instead of the consumers level..ie us, and revenues from us that support their work on all levels.

The Salmon stamp would have supported their work through sportsmen without relying on so much dependency from government. However that would lead to we the sportsmen having a lobby stronger than government if such money was to talk louder. I might have it all wrong but money does have its way of making a tree lean with the wind.