DEC response to Salmon Numbers

[troubles]

Edited October 19, 2015 by troubles

[Tall Tails]

Typical Section head response.  He didn't say anything that he hasn't been saying.  I am tired of listening to the scripted, canned responses..

[DJ 17]

I especially like the company line that the charter captains my be negatively effecting the Lake Trout numbers when they can't catch kings!  Wow...  Just seems like the standard lock step answer from the state.  We want to stock more Lakers so we are going to push our agenda through your interview questions.

[fishon]

I definitely don't get out as much as I used too. But 70 lake trout days on the bar between dec- may seems only to be a memory. King fishing is not the same, Perch numbers the last 3 years in Chaumont bay, henderson area has declined with guys not even catching small ones. Smallmouth ( remember those green fish) from fort Niagara to Chaumont seems to be sloow picking. Even the sheephead I used to catch seem to be missing. Little grass pike and pickel seem to be hard find. But I don't think the king fishing is the only spiecies that are in trouble. Vhs, gobies,cormorants, osperys, don't help. I find it hard to believe when we have a normal winter things will bounce back.

[rolmops]

Every time the charters went out and could not find kings, they went after the lakers. Of course this influences the laker numbers.

The massachussetts fisher men always said that there are plenty of cod and that their DEC was just plain wrong and/or stupid for trying to protect cod. Now the Gulf of Maine is closed because there are no cod left. Denying facts does not change them no matter how convenient that might be.

So he did not say what you wanted to hear. Does that mean that it is not true?

[spoonfed-1]

Every time the charters went out and could not find kings, they went after the lakers. Of course this influences the laker numbers.

The massachussetts fisher men always said that there are plenty of cod and that their DEC was just plain wrong and/or stupid for trying to protect cod. Now the Gulf of Maine is closed because there are no cod left. Denying facts does not change them no matter how convenient that might be.

So he did not say what you wanted to hear. Does that mean that it is not true?

 

The Cod were decimated by Gill netters and Draggers. Large commercial operations.

NOT by Charters or recs fishing with rod and reel.

 

Even though their take was limited to 200 lbs they still took Cod while fishing for Haddock and dumped dead Cod overboard,

They were within the law.

Laws and regulations that were set by "their" DEC.

Just one more example from those you hold in such high regard.

Edited October 8, 2015 by spoonfed-1

[rolmops]

The Massachussetts DEP was and is controlled by politicians and lobby groups. The Ny DEC much less so. Every time we attack the DEC we expose the DEC to possible polical adventures by vote hunting opportunistic politicians.  If that happens the DEC marine biology will be replaced with polical biology and in the process the lake will suffer.

[spoonfed-1]

The Massachussetts DEP was and is controlled by politicians and lobby groups. The Ny DEC much less so. Every time we attack the DEC we expose the DEC to possible polical adventures by vote hunting opportunistic politicians.  If that happens the DEC marine biology will be replaced with polical biology and in the process the lake will suffer.

 

Again YOUR Opinion.

No facts to back it up and thats what you accused Thrillseeker of doing when he made a statement that didn't coincide with your agenda.

 

Bottom line is money,

Ma as well as NY

[Missdemeanor]

More anti-charter boat rhetoric....Seems to be a common theme with this guy's posts.... The DEC is always right and the charter boats at the root of all evil to the lake....

 

 

   The same charter guys who are instrumental in setting up the pen rearing programs (which benefits everyone). The same Charter guys who help the DEC with studies by saving fish heads.

 

Yup....The Charter guys are the bad guys........ LMAO!

[TileMan Dan]

Rolmops, check your messages.

[dvdegeorge]

More anti-charter boat rhetoric....Seems to be a common theme with this guy's posts.... The DEC is always right and the charter boats at the root of all evil to the lake....

 

 

   The same charter guys who are instrumental in setting up the pen rearing programs (which benefits everyone). The same Charter guys who help the DEC with studies by saving fish heads.

 

Yup....The Charter guys are the bad guys........ LMAO!

[Gator]

So, you guys know me and I'm sure not an enemy of charter boat captains. But I'm not too bad at math either, and Rolmops has a point. If the salmon fishing sucks, captains put their sports on lakers. With salmon, you're taking a short-lived fish out of the system and they stock 2 million of them a year. With a laker, you're taking a long-lived fish that they only stock half a million. That's a double whammy, because the number of fish in the lake is determined not by stocking numbers, but by turnover, same as any other biological system. Any system with fast turnover recovers more quickly, less so other systems. 

 

So, taking more lakers (which is fine in my book) is going to require stocking more lakers to keep up. Unlike kings, where it won't make as much of a dent, what you'd think would have minor impact is exacerbated with lakers because of slow turnover. And the population will more rapidly show a trend toward smaller fish as the size distribution is reduced and larger fish get taken out of the system.

 

If, on the other hand, you don't replenish the population, it will take a nosedive quite quickly. So, stocking more lakers is not a completely bad idea, and in fact it means that DEC is tacitly acknowledging the increased pressure on them. 

 

I for one would hate to work at a government agency where you have to balance the practical with the political, then make everybody feel like they're getting cherry Kool Aid.

[Gill-T]

Steve LaPan is up on the issues with Lake Ontario.  The interviewer's questions are what many of us have been discussing.  I accept most of what he says EXCEPT the part where he stated the Canadian salmon runs are experiencing the same low returns that our salmon runs are experiencing as if it is a lake-wide issue.  I would comment that the Canadian runs on the East end have been full of fish.  The West end of Canada ARE having similar poor returns on streams there.  Therefore,  problems with  the warm tributaries with no natural reproduction which are reliant on the stocking programs to foster fishable salmon runs (which are getting a failing grade the past two years) points to a potential problem with the stocking program.  Natural born kings on the East end of Canada are thriving.  Right now we are doing something wrong for the current conditions of Lake Ontario. 

[Tall Tails]

The Ny DEC much less so.  

 

100 percent false!  Educate yourself and get involved before you make false statements!  Gov. Cuomo has put a gag order on every department in the state.  FACT LOOK it up!  His canned answers have already been approved in Albany!  Do you realize if an organization like ELOSTA invites local politicians and DEC employees to an event that the employees cannot attend without the governors specific approval??  FACT!  Its happened and it happened as recently as last August. Also the Hatchery division and the Fisheries division are separate in NY and they don't site down and talk to each other.  I had a conference call with a regional biologist and the head of the hatchery division in July.  The regional Biologist set it up so he could learn what was happening with a few issues in the hatchery system....ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!!!!    SAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

 

 If you would like more details please PM me...

[Missdemeanor]

 Brian.....Don't waste your time.....  We are the Villans here... 

[spoonfed-1]

100 percent false!  Educate yourself and get involved before you make false statements!  Gov. Cuomo has put a gag order on every department in the state.  FACT LOOK it up!  His canned answers have already been approved in Albany!  Do you realize if an organization like ELOSTA invites local politicians and DEC employees to an event that the employees cannot attend without the governors specific approval??  FACT!  Its happened and it happened as recently as last August. Also the Hatchery division and the Fisheries division are separate in NY and they don't site down and talk to each other.  I had a conference call with a regional biologist and the head of the hatchery division in July.  The regional Biologist set it up so he could learn what was happening with a few issues in the hatchery system....ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!!!!    SAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

 

 If you would like more details please PM me...

 

Not much of what this guy posts is true or accurate Brian.

It's a pattern here.

[Rich D]

Fyi they are running today, in the lower river and have seen well over 200 go by, mostly kings. They are still coming, the shore on the lake is plastered with fish, that is from a fellow Capt that rows the night shift. We will see how long this run lasts.

Capt Rich

NY Guide Service

Lake Ontario Charters

Salmon River Drift Boat trips

Waterfowl Hunting.

[Gill-T]

I have no doubt the Salmon will continue to have fish as there is natural reproduction there.  The problems is all the other south shore ports that rely on stocking.

[Rich s]

100 percent false! Educate yourself and get involved before you make false statements! Gov. Cuomo has put a gag order on every department in the state. FACT LOOK it up! His canned answers have already been approved in Albany! Do you realize if an organization like ELOSTA invites local politicians and DEC employees to an event that the employees cannot attend without the governors specific approval?? FACT! Its happened and it happened as recently as last August. Also the Hatchery division and the Fisheries division are separate in NY and they don't site down and talk to each other. I had a conference call with a regional biologist and the head of the hatchery division in July. The regional Biologist set it up so he could learn what was happening with a few issues in the hatchery system....ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!!!!!! SAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you would like more details please PM me...

This is nothing new and has been in the past as well but yes the sneaky one is being the most restrictive

http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/535864/DEC-s-gag-order.html

[troubles]

Every time the charters went out and could not find kings, they went after the lakers. Of course this influences the laker numbers.

The massachussetts fisher men always said that there are plenty of cod and that their DEC was just plain wrong and/or stupid for trying to protect cod. Now the Gulf of Maine is closed because there are no cod left. Denying facts does not change them no matter how convenient that might be.

So he did not say what you wanted to hear. Does that mean that it is not true?

The way I see it he really didn't say anything other than we don't know the answers or the fish are late! Nothing other than it's mother natures fault. One other thing rollmops! You always seem to be the guy who is critical on things From Pro-Ams to Beating on well respected Tournament Teams, Etc. Etc. Etc.

Your opinions don't mean squat as far as I'm concerned!

Edited October 9, 2015 by troubles

[King Davy]

Well Gill I stood on the banks of the Genny yesterday and watched all kinds of fish roll from the flats to the falls....and like I said I have friends who have been having double digit days trolling the river below the wading area. Ron at Orleans Outdoors at the Oak is noting fair to good numbers of fish at the Dam, and good numbers below the wading area working their way up. anybody that knows Ron well...he's always careful not to over estimate the fishing situation...he errors on the lower side.  It's Oct 9.....let's give it a few weeks to see what transpires. Canada tribs were good, had two very good angler buddies on the North shore who fished all the ribbons East of Toronto state the run was good.

 

Are they late...compared to the past few years yeah...compared to long term no way. I never used to fish salmon until Oct. into early Nov.  I'm rolling my eyes...I heard for a few years people complaining that DEC was inducing early runs of fish into warm water cause they took eggs from early stage fish...now I'm reading people are upset that they are only taking eggs from later run fish.

 

When in reality, if you want the best situation for spawning King fish, you want them coming now. The water is below 60, and they aren't going to die due to the water being too warm before they take care of business. If you think about it....King lovers should be rejoicing the fish are coming in late.

 

DEC can't take eggs until water temps fall below 60. For several years that was at earliest this week. They'll begin their egg take this year on Monday or Tuesday.

[Gill-T]

 

 

Are they late...compared to the past few years yeah...compared to long term no way. I never used to fish salmon until Oct. into early Nov.  I'm rolling my eyes...I heard for a few years people complaining that DEC was inducing early runs of fish into warm water cause they took eggs from early stage fish...now I'm reading people are upset that they are only taking eggs from later run fish.

 

When in reality, if you want the best situation for spawning King fish, you want them coming now. The water is below 60, and they aren't going to die due to the water being too warm before they take care of business. If you think about it....King lovers should be rejoicing the fish are coming in late.

 

DEC can't take eggs until water temps fall below 60. For several years that was at earliest this week. They'll begin their egg take this year on Monday or Tuesday.

 

Agreed!!!  They should only be stripping late October and November fish and I am glad there are some fish running!  Good rains last night.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Gill-T

[Nontypical]

Now Ive stayed out of these threads for the most part and not saying I know much about stocking #'s and procedures and really don't have an opinion on whose to take the fault for the poor fishing the last 2 years but to me it seems as if the extreme weather we experienced the last 2 winters has a lot to do with this issue. Yes, they are stocking fewer fish, I fish the west end (dalhousie to the river) and there are good #'s this year. Fishing was sub par on the lake but I firmly believe it's these extreme cold winters. It's changing the life cycles/habits of the king salmon. 2012-2013 were stellar years and those winters were some of our warmest in the last decade, in 2012 I was catching Kings at the end of March it was so warm, I iced fish lake simcoe once on 10" of ice in the middle of February...not normal...

So that's sort of my view on it, I could be way off and I do understand that stocking does play a major role, but I'm not packing it in just yet, we'll see what 2016 brings.

Edited October 9, 2015 by Nontypical

[rolmops]

Time will tell.

Oh by the way, I volunteered for the the pen rearing project,did you?

[Missdemeanor]

 I put them in.......    and took them out.........    The hardest part of the job......   Nice try though 

 

 

As a matter of fact I helped with Sandy Creek's as well.....

Edited October 9, 2015 by Missdemeanor