DEC response to Salmon Numbers

[GAMBLER]

Wasn't 2012's hatch of alewives through the roof Vince?

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Wasn't 2012's hatch of alewives through the roof Vince?

Based on what we saw for adult alewives the last 2 yrs I would have to say yes, Brian. The Kings were in a competitive state right out of the gate in 2012, with the 3 yr class driving it. That left an excellent number of 4 yr olds for 2013.

[rolmops]

I do believe that a huge amount of the steelhead(Thirty thousand to fifty thousand yearlings annually)  is produced by the fully volunteer Credit River hatchery in Mississauga. They mark their returns and release them again. I caught quite a few Credit River marked steelies on the 26 line out of Wilson.

Edited October 15, 2015 by rolmops

[GAMBLER]

I do believe that a huge amount of the steelhead is produced by the fully volunteer Credit River hatchery in Mississauga. They mark their returns and release them again. I caught quite a few Credit River marked steelies on the 26 line out of Wilson.

I got one out of sandy this summer. I know three other boats that got one also.

[King Davy]

OK back to it...tough when work gets in the way of invigorating debate.

 

First off I have no ill will towards anybody on here, just maybe a difference of opinion. I don't know most of you, so it would be silly to not like somebody I don't truly know.

 

My point...IF YOU READ ALL MY Offerings, is we need a Diversified sport fishery for the entire watershed that includes Lakes, Bays and tributaries. All of you folks who target Kings on the lake (and who wouldn't) don't spin the boat around after two hours of not catching one, and head back to port. You run off shore looking for Steelhead, or inshore looking for Browns and Lakers. The normal boating season runs from April to Sept. However, from Dec, through actually May, of the 9 full months of the Trib season, three of the four main species that run our tribs is gone. And we are left to only fish for ONE species.

 

We don't have diversity that we can truly count on. I disagree with the argument that more Kings means less predation on Steelhead, because the Fish Creel Census from 2009 through 2013 doesn't show that at all. While King Salmon fishing enjoyed four years off fantastic fishing including some of the best on record. There was still heavy targeting, catching and creeling of Steelhead. So the numbers don't support the theory. Now if we had a 1 Steelhead limit on the tribs and the lake, maybe targeting them wouldn't be a big deal. But on days when a lake troller can't catch a salmon and fills their limit with Steelhead at 3 fish per man, there is much greater impact. And because you aren't catching Salmon doesn't mean they aren't IN the lake someplace...especially a fish that travel 15,000 miles on average per year.

 

Also the very same theory to create more competition for alewife to reduce the over eating of this species can be done with a combination of fish species added to the environment. NOT just King Salmon. Next if it turns out we have lost the two youngest populations of alewives from the 2014, and 2015 winter and the crux of the adult fish are all bigger older fish, they have a shorter life span left. Historically they reach four to six years old Max. If they have...or take a hit this winter, you don't have the backup of 2 and 3 year olds to fill in. And big maturing salmon eating YOY bait fish next spring are not going to prosper in body fat content that will hold them over another tough winter should we have one.

 

We then are set up for the Perfect Storm. And all of a sudden everybody is fishing for Lakers, Browns, and Steelhead, cause the King Salmon will suffer. Are the populations down on Steelhead and Salmon ....I bet they are. Although there are 10's of thousands of Kings in this lake on both shores, that have the capability to not only enter the system through stocking, but any river that has Salmon in it can promote natural reproduction simply due to the timing of the hatching and leaving the trib before lethal water temps kill them. Would we want to ever explore only a natural population of these fish....no way.

 

Steelhead natural reproduction to bolster the population is a non factor, isn't now, and never has been. We don't have water quality in any of our South shore tribs to house a steelhead through a summer, required to smolt them out to sea. I stood on the Ganny back in the 70's 80's and 90's at the fish ladder, as the counter recorded 25,000 fish up to the spawning grounds. Now that number tops out at 3 to 5K. The historic Canadian tribs that actually had wild steelhead even before stocking aren't nearly as productive as they once were.

 

My point is, we as Stakeholders should be focused on the well being of all the species we fish for. To Rich's point we are NOT united. Vince...ever notice how we aren't invited to a "key" Stakeholder meeting anymore like we used to have in the late fall Dec time frame. Because DEC watches and reads and takes the pulse of the stakeholders. They aren't promoting this anymore, because the angling community continues to be divided. They aren't playing to that kind of audience but only back to once a year now. 

 

Atlantic Salmon - I have yet to read a fishing report by any angler lake or trib, who have caught one of these fish, and said...that sucked. These fish are no fun to catch. They aren't beautiful. Are they a by catch. yes they are. And they will continue to be, because the Atlantic Salmon program is an experimental program that is not being run to create a sustainable sport fishery. The Feds, who fund and execute the program put in a total of about 250K fish. There are other programs on Lake Ontario...from Canada that are also running an same experiment. They are running this in part of the GLFC PERIOD. That's it. Funding of this is not taking away from the States stocking program. The State does grow some landlocks, a tiny amount hits the LO watershed, the rest hit the Finger lakes. That program has been in existence since the 70's and isn't taking up hatchery space were Pacific species are being raised.

 

Anybody who has caught one of these great fish on a river, gushes over them why? Because like the terrific Chinook salmon and it's fighting capabilities in open water, The Atlantic Salmon is that in a River. In all the history of Atlantic Salmon fishing, these fish aren't targeted in open water, but rather on rivers why? Because they enter rivers in their prime, many months ahead of their spawning ritual, and create the very same exhilarating sport fish experience that pacific salmon create in open water. and to some extent early in their run of our rivers. This summer the Salmon river experienced a very nice run of Atlantic Salmon with plenty of fish around to target. And as of this writing, Atlantic salmon are being caught daily on the salmon river while people are fishign for Pacific fish. Should you expect to go there and catch one? No...why because there aren't that many stocked that would create a true sport fishing program. They are still part of the experiment, and while science is in production mode of making more fish for sport fishing, they are also doing "Science" on the historical species of the Great lakes.

 

Today the trib usage numbers dwarf the lake usage numbers. This is for many reasons, (Mostly economics) and probably none of those reasons are because the lake fishing isn't successful. Communities to include Chambers Of Commerce (except in Monroe County) and politicians will listen to us if we are a  unified. Because they can and will look at who is using the fishery. And they will find out there is a hug influx of people using the tributaries, that come here all through the fall winter and spring, when boats are put to bed, and they stay in hotels and eat food and by gas and tackle just like the summer fishery. They are going to WANT IT ALL. If ALL of us were united, we'd HAVE the REAL strength in numbers that IS the total stakeholder community. Not just a fractured segment of it.

 

I was foolish enough when I retired my charter business after 22 years , to focus on the other side of the fishery. The trib side, because I couldn't stand the skullduggery that was going on in the tribs that disrespected our king Salmon brown trout and Steelhead. So I and a small band of highly professional and successful anglers started another group to try and teach anglers the right way to fish and to respect these fish in the rivers. I thought we could make an impact.....and I was sadly mistaken. We need to all get on the same page. Doesn't matter what your "favorite" fish is....but it does matter if you are working for the entire health of the watershed when it comes to gaining the respect of the DEC and USGS to offer our help in maintaining and hopefully making it better.

Edited October 15, 2015 by King Davy

[GAMBLER]

Dave, the creel census is skewed. They do way more in ports where the steelhead are targeted more and there are more boats to stop. If they spent more time in the rochester basin and east, you would see a drastic reduction in steelhead. The ports to the west have steelhead within reach all the time thanks to the niagara plume. Sandy east when kings are not around, it is brown and laker time. That one issue with the creek census. Another issue with it is it does not show year class of salmon being caught. Last year they said the king numbers were high. Little did they show it was MOSTLY one and two year old kings (not a true representation of the fishery). I have not seen the creel census boat on Sandy in three years. And that last time I saw them, they were putting the boat back on the trailer at 11am.

Edited October 15, 2015 by GAMBLER

[King Davy]

Yeah Gambler we can find a skew in any and all data, but in the world of Math and Science we have to accept at least an 80/20 rule. Because in a landscape this large there is no way the data is going to be 100% accurate. I know dam well a lot of people fish off shore from Rochester West, and have access to the majority of Steelhead.

 

And the key is not just harvesting a fish. because now we have studies of high mortality of Steehead if not handled properly. So this isn't just a boat angling problem, but surely a river problem as well. You can't let these fish bang around on the deck of a boat, or rocks on a trib shore line. The experience of scientists who have discovered this problem is the fish appears to be completely healthy and revived, but hours after release they die from blunt  trauma to internal organs.

 

We can challenge the data if we can back it up with specific facts, but saying all the time they weren't in your port isn't going to work. You are going to hear this Spring from Jana, that they watched boat after boat pass her crews by while they begged boaters to at least come close enough to tell them what they caught. And they didn't. So now we have a stalemate, and get nothing done.

 

As stated before, if anglers are willing to keep TRUE accurate creel findings from their boats and offer a log book to DEC and USGS, that might help. But if they don't trust us, the program gains us no knowledge. This is only my opinion, but I don't see how Charter Operators don't have a program with DEC to feed their daily catch rates. It's in their best interest to do so. BUT they have to be accurate and honest. I know they are worried about being audited, but if you are doing business in a legal ethical manner what are you worried about....

[Sweet Caroline]

Dave,

 

Is it only steelhead that are more susceptible to mortality after being released? The reason I ask is that I have had many instances with browns in the tribs where I have caught the same brown in the same hole 2-5 times over the course of a trib season. They fought just as well and looked just as healthy (sometimes even more healthy) after each time I caught them. This made me a true believer in the benefits of catch & release. I would think the same would apply to steelhead? Granted a steelhead probably would be on the move more and not stay in the same hole as much as brown does during the trib season.

 

Great insight and points of view from everybody BTW

[King Davy]

Any fish that is mishandled is obviously in danger. But a group of scientists in BC discovered how problematic handling was for big hearty steelhead they were putting radio tags on. They bumped around the rocks while putting the GPS devices on. A few hours later the fish were no longer moving. They recaptured a number of these dead fish, and did autopsies on them to discover blunt force trauma that could have only come from handling.

[GAMBLER]

I would think steelhead would end up dead more over Browns. Steelhead fight to the death!

[HBC]

Steelhead get dragged behind a boat that doesn't stop and with the oxygen levels in the waters they are in, they are more susceptible to dying.  That is why there are so many floaters in the blue zone.  Guys don't want to take the time to revive them, just catch them.

 

King Davy, I have fished the Ganaraska since the late 1970's and as stated, the levels are way down but they were never at 25K.  I believe 1982 was the highest peak recorded run which was just over 18K.  Still, runs have improved over the past few years where they are approaching 8 - 10K again so there has been a resurgence. 

 

Getting back to kings, north shore tribs out our way are loaded and with the late runs, it has been good because they close the majority of the tribs after Sept 30 which gives these fish the best chance as compared to typical years when the runs start in mid Aug.  Strange year, but the runs out my way are fine however that is not the case out west or on the south shore.  I say wait another year before people can start crying chicken little.

[King Davy]

Hairy.....for clarification what is the Steelhead regs these days on the Ontario tribs. I haven't been over in about six years. Have they been reduced from 5 to 2? And did they make the lake and Tribs the same?

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Welcome Hairy from the North.  The tribs with the big runs are the ones with Natural repro--and have protected areas/timeframes.  Perhaps thats what needs to be done on the southshore if we cant get the hatchery product improved.

Davey, sorry but no debate here. There was simply less adult Chinooks returning home the last 2 years, and in the west end, its been longer than that.

As for the boat surverys, I challenge you to find ONE crew that I ever drove past or didnt cooperate with. You can add diet studies, head collections, stakeholder meetings--I participate in them all.

I think you are extremely incorrect if you dont think healthy Chinook numbers buffer your Steel. You know the truth. I think you are playing a dangerous game of DIVIDING user groups when you start pointing fingers at the lake anglers. It works both ways. Perhaps there would be more mature Brown trout and Steelhead in the lake if they werent all played out to submission in the tribs. Maybe we should look closely at closing off sections of quality tribs for spawning--not just C n R, but no harrasment whatsoever. See, it can go both ways but everyone who knows you knows where your heart lies and what your true colors are. I'm very sorry about what is happening to the trib Steel, it affects us all. If the alewives were cropped properly the health of the Steelhead would magically improve. The solution was, is, and always will be Pacific Salmon. 

[King Davy]

Vince while I'm sure you've done all those things...as have I.....including planting 1000's of trees to create better spawning habitat, volunteering for pen programs at the Oak, Sandy and the Genny, organizing and running dozens of stream clean ups, and habitat improvement.

 

 I'm not disagreeing that trout and salmon numbers are down, but the impact of salmon numbers being down when the lake gets 1.7 million planted and probably more like 2.1 million.... and millions more that hatch naturally annually even if a low % add to the fishable population  ...VS a stocking of 600 to 700k steelhead and even lessor amounts of Brown trout, isn't equitable.

 

You aren't reading me very well if you think I'm trying to divide anglers, When my message all along is to be unified with our eye on the ball on the entire watershed salmonid fishery. The division is only focusing on King Salmon, and my point is, you aren't going to get the ear of the feds and DEC in that direction. How's that working so far? You are getting nothing back from them are you?  Except more of the same. They are maxed out on Salmon. Nobody's bringing 50 million dollars to build another hatchery. BUT that doesn't mean other methods and decisions and management actions can't relieve a down turn in success. In Reality there isn't an "easy button" to push with out consequences that could tear it all down. The data tells us it's just NOT one element that has slowed things down. I don't believe in a magic bullet.

 

So you're a predominate lake angler, and today I spend most of my time on tribs, So what? We're both still fishing. I love fishing for King Salmon....on the lake, not so much in a river. If the fish you fish for in open water From April through July were black and half dead would you be targeting them there as well? I still want all species of salmon and trout fisheries to be healthy and sustainable. There isn't just ONE button to push. It's not going to be ONLY a bait fish problem.

 

So while shutting down some tribs, that take the almighty dollar from the communities nine months of the year, let's stop having a tournament every weekend, that just takes fish out for personal $$$$$. I looked at results on many of these tournaments where boats were bringing in small fish to get on the board. Two year olds that will never be three and fours. We can Pi$$ on each others Chero's all day long if you want, or the fishing community can get together and fix this. But it will never happen in a trib VS Lake environment. River anglers have just as much right to enjoy the environment that is this fishery as any lake angler and vice versa...when ever they have the opportunity to simply go fishing. ...and you show me where I've ever stated it any other way.

 

You for sure have a personal vested interest in having lots of King Salmon around for your business, And I get that, I was in this business for a long time as well. and yes my clients loved to catch salmon, and I caught them by the 100's every year. But it simply isn't the only game in town. And can't be managed that way.

[GAMBLER]

I believe he is reading you the same as I am Dave. You and your "Metal Head" friends comment was proof in the pudding. You have slathered your love for the streams and the Atlantic agenda on this board before.

[HBC]

North shore bow limits in the lake and river is 2 for possession.  Possession is the key.  As everyone knows, that includes what is in the freezer at home however our friends from our neighbouring province don't understand that.  Each year they target bows throughout each day and they keep pretty well everything that makes it to the boat.  They bring their own freezers and load them up and then take them all home.  Very hard to prove this as they state the fish are "clients" fish and they are just holding for them.

 

This was an odd season for sure and nothing like I have experienced 20 - 30 years ago as we would do well anywhere on the lake but out west it was nuts with the amount of fish in the Credit.  I haven't been at the Credit for close to 20 years now but even 20 years ago it was not as good as it was 30 years ago.  I did fine though this year.....no skunks and good numbers of fish on most trips.  No coho this year for me which was very odd when I was out in the blue zone.

 

I hope you guys convince the DEC to take a hard look at what is going on.  Without DEC support or guidance, the OMNR will do absolutely nothing.  They will dump fish wherever as it is a checkmark for them.  When MEA looked after the hatchery and stocking for a 6 year period a few years ago (OMNR took responsibility back 2 years ago I believe), they did things that made sense.  Stocking at night, stocking with correct water temps, raising smolts to a good size prior to stocking, pen projects, etc.  They did this because they all had a vested interest in this and lots of us guys who loved fishing kings all took our personal time to volunteer with egg collections, pen duties, hatchery duties, and stocking.  Not sure what the commitment level is now since it has been taken away from anglers who care.  I'm sure some do care, but some may not care so much.

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Davey, I'm surprised you have not mentioned cormorants as doing damage to Steelhead. I can assure you they are having an enormous impact. Perhaps it's easier to point fingers at the lake anglers? Do you understand that lowering the creel on Steel will be counter productive? Why? because just like the fleets that HBC from the north deals with, there are some of those over here too. When creel was reached on Steel they would continue fishing, in exactly the same fashion, for the other species. Trust me, I'm frustrated with abuses too.

As for your slam on Tournament fishing, there is no greater impact economically on an area than when an event is held. Those are probably the most justified fish harvested in the lake, and most of the smart guys are fishing the events with charters, sharing the great resource. We could debate sizes of Chinooks caught, but our fishery chief has already said its not having an impact (open water harvest) and these fish are the greatest table fare anyway.

If you are fishing where the fall run Chinooks are "half dead", then you must have some private water. Over here in the Niagara and 18 mile they are harvested so fast they never end up like that. The small, young Chinooks this year have actually put up quite a good show.  

[King Davy]

ha Gambler maybe I'm just hard headed. Thanks for the update Hairy. I thought the regs had changed to lower limits on tribs and the lake.

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

[HBC]

They did lower the limits from 5 fish to 2 a couple years ago for a full license.  For a conversation license it is 1 for each.  The combo of trout/salmon is 5 max of which only 2 can be bows for full license.

[King Davy]

Yeah Vince I'm fishing in front of white tails in the lower parts of rivers and witnessing white tails coming in from the estuary. So fish are entering the river in the shape one normally see them weeks after spawning suggesting they stayed way later in the lake or embayment. Which is not the norm in lower stages of rivers I've been fishing. the pictures of fish are of fish who look like several weeks in a river when they've just arrived . So as I witnessed last year fish are arriving much later then normal where there has been plenty of Cfs. 2013 fish ran in a puddle of water in August. Warm winter and easy summer. Now two years in a row hard winters cold eastly summers fishing running late. Many factors are probably involved. Could it be diet maybe but I'd wager the weather conditions set the stage to much of a coincidence. Don' forget the American and red breasted merganser heavy predation on our tribs in early spring as smolts are n shore.

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

[King Davy]

And you fired the first round at closing streams during the seasonal fishing. We can do that and let's limit lake fishing to say three days a week. Just as ridiculous. Not thinking the businesses that see a million five anglers hours On one river are giving up that kind of green. This year the DEC will be doing the entire east to west trib usage Sept through April. The numbers will be staggering and the economic value will be indisputable. But as I believe a strong 12 month a year usage urges managers to focus on the entire lineup. Can't discount the interest in other species after the salmon are dead. Just as nobody is stopping fishing on an outing on the lake if they can't locate salmon. Interest in the entire lineup even if a favorite is lacking helps DEC continue to get funding from the states cfo's to continue the program.

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

[GAMBLER]

Vince did not say to close the tribs totally Dave. He is talking about closing sections that support natural reproduction. They close lake trout season to protect spawning lakers. Why not do it with kings since 50% of the population is from natural reproduction?

[TileMan Dan]

I've been a member of this forum for a little over 2 years and the one thing I cant understand is the animosity between trib guys vs lake guys. Everyone who fishes this great system is part of the problem and also part of the solution. There is no one singular problem creating the fishery issues we are seeing right now. One cannot say they did things better 30 yrs ago vs today. The lake conditions 30 years ago don't exist today. Water is so much cleaner. We have more invasives than prior, record cold winters, and crazy wheather patterns. I don't think the lake had a true thermocline setup the last 2 years. I know when I fished temps were all over the place from one minute to the next. Lot of studies need to take place and a lot of patience in the meanwhile. Knee jerk resctions will not solve the problems.

[LongLine]

hmmm....."5 million angler hours on one river."  Yet less than 1 million angler hours on the open lake for all of 2014.  I'm wondering how much that 5 million would drop without the salmon in Sept, Oct, and early Nov.   

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[TileMan Dan]

See this is exactly the B.S. I was talking about. Every one thinks their s### smells like roses but have yet to make a dime selling it!!!!