DEC response to Salmon Numbers

[itstings]

No matter the angle from state or business or personal its all about money !!!

until there is enough no ones happy !!!

[TileMan Dan]

Gator, you are absolutely correct..This is a spirited and lively debate. Every ones opinions need to be respected. No reason anyone should result to name calling. My opinion on this lake issue is that it is more complex than just an abundance of adult alewives.

[King Davy]

And an apology to Gilly...just saw your work in the trib section....nicely done my friend. I'd fish a river with you any day. But that kind of behavior is why I fish the DSR during the salmon run. All the best Gilly.

[Rich s]

while I don't normally fish for them nor disagree with what your saying about your experience gambler but we caught tons of perch in the Mexico area this season when we were bored, the lake was to nasty to troll or just wanted bites..

My friend over by the Genny also noted what Davy said and he told me perch numbers were up..

Great conversation here folks and I value/absorb it all , data and opinions.

Thank You :

Rich

[Xxx]

So let me try this again...(and this is just what is swimming around in my brain) try and explain why I don't think the answer to the equation....is putting in more Salmon RIGHT now. And it has NOTHING TO DO....with not enjoying catching or seeing a big healthy King salmon over any other fish.

 

First off, One logically can't assume every bait fish on their screen is an alewife. The last few years trawl results have shown bio mass up ticks of other bait fish species e.g emerald Shiners, that can and will inhabit zones that alewife and predator fish reside in. When we've had a huge bio mass of alewife in the system fish like shiners and yellow perch, Shads were depressed. That just isn't the case right now. While they don't co-habit the same water columns in the summer months they for sure do at spawning time. And if there were way more alewife these other species would be barely present.  You can fill buckets of perch in LO right now, all along the shore line. I see it every weekend.

 

Next...I don't discount Vince's argument that fishing is tough if there is too much competition. Vince I understand that way more then you can know spending an evening on a trout stream that has a monster hatch of bugs, to where my fly has little chance of being eaten by the dozens of fish raising at my feet. However, if salmon are out there and gorging themselves on the huge bio mass of herring, why aren't we seeing lots and I mean lots of big fish. OK because over eating they mature faster, but we've witnessed brown trout over eating to where we get big young fish. We aren't getting overly large young fish.

 

The Weather. We know the past two winters have effected alewife body fat conditions. Causing the death of YOY fish, and creating thin mature alewife. They are thin, most probably because the food chain below them has been impacted as well. So logically if the lowest forms of the food chain is out of balance, meaning too little of it, more normal weather patterns would be required to have all of those elements of the food chain to recover. One might argue that if you take the predator of the plankton and shrimps out of play they would recover faster, but then you'd create a hole in the food chain for the top predators to continue to grow and mature. for the next say two years of fresh Salmon plants and wild fish....and it would impact the other predator species as well. All could suffer.

 

Logically balance has to recover from the tiny elements of the food chain all the way up to the top predators. And it's best done naturally. Mother nature has an infinite record of allowing what it destroys to recover healthier....(see wild forests that burn and re-grow). In my mind if you try and balance the environment from the top down, instead of how it rights itself naturally from bottom up, you run a much higher risk of longer out of balance issues, to where your top predators, ALL of them suffer.

 

I don't believe there is a magic bullet or quick fix to what Mother nature messes up. For the record last years Steelhead B1 problems were noted in the larger adult maturing fish, while the scouts and fish well under 10 pounds didn't seem to be affected from the dozens of fish I observed. Let's hear from others what they observed. This also seemed to be a bigger issue only on the east end of the lake. I observed 1 swirling steelhead in the Genny which I spend most of my time on, and none at Oak Orchard. And the logical thought is ...the forage from Rochester west is MUCH more diversified, meaning those steelhead were probably dinning on shiners and gobies, and other species ...not only herring. Which then suggests there are many more of other bait fish species swimming in those waters.

 

Now...many of you will debate and or disagree with my logical thought process, but I didn't make this scenario up...it's what we've historically seen since the dawn of this fishery. Balance is key, but not of just one element of the food chain. The chain reaction to the two coldest winters in record in 100 years was what most probably kicked this off. And then you throw in the pressure put on the fishery to the top predators from the lake and trib fisheries, for now going on 24 months when it's all said and done....and the second off summer in a row, and we now have a ton a variables in on top of the element that started the slide.

 

I can't see where not allowing the data to become picture perfectly clear from the science that is being evaluated ...(and yes it takes time, and we all hate to wait). isn't the "best" choice. I didn't say the only choice just what I...me thinks is logically the best choice. I say that simply because since the late 60's the guys doing the science, and making management decisions have a pretty darn good track record. If I'm vetting out all the choices of what do to...I keep coming back to ...I trust the guys in the lab.

 

And Gambler (I'm only having fun with you...so don't get the hair up on the back of your neck) while I do love to fish and catch Atlantic salmon, If I want the best opportunity to catch one in the Great Lakes other then Gaspe', Norway, Russia or Iceland, I'd be standing in the ST. Mary's rapids. I KNOW we aren't creating a world class sport fishery by only loading 250k salmon in....if we could then we could reduce the stocking of many other species, and have room for more different fish like Coaster Brook trout....which you should be all over since you are a Char lover.

 

And lastly my friend the Biologist Gilly. What's the issue if some body chooses to fish on a private stretch of river. Does that mean everybody who goes Elk, Deer, Moose and Bear hunting on a private ranch is wrong as well. Or PAYS to lease up land to hunt whitetails on...posts it and doesn't let anybody on. I choose to fish there because I want a shot at the freshest kings, silvers, and steelhead coming in from the lake, because my style of fly fishing is looking for biters that will chase a fly. And with plenty of room to fish. And that with river walkers, those that are gigging Salmon get run off the property. So if I want to spend the dollars to put myself in those conditions what business is it of yours to comment? The DSR is like listening to a radio station or TV program. If you don't like what you are watching or listening to... change the channel. Nobody is putting a gun to anybody's head and making them stop in there an pay. You can easily drive by. Gilly stay away from things you know nothing about....like your statement that Atlantic Salmon and Brown trout NEVER nest together. ....really?

X2, King D, your words are carefully thought out with a lot of Intel. Getting off the source just to prove a point. We all know the building industry went to hell 5/6 years ago. Those established enough to hold on are now busier than a 3 armed wallpaper hanger, my family is the proof, from masons to shinglers. Life does go in circular motion wether its a 3 or 5 or longer to get back on track no one knows this answer! You are correct we need to start with the beginning of the circle of life and work from there. Just flooding the lake with kings isn't the answer. One another note would there be such an uproar if it were a different species?? I bought a 2016 fishing license, going to plug away at it again next year. Peace guys we are all in this together. PAP

[King Davy]

Gee Gambler maybe so...I have four friends that do nothing but anchor off the wrecks between Long Pond and Iron Bay and crush the fish. All year classes, and there isn't a day I walk the Charlotte pier when they are out there all summer long (if we have some inshore cold water) they aren't whacking the snot out of them. BUT...back in the day...there were NO perch....And Mrs. Mother Nature may have had an effect on them as well. But I truly defer to your observation since you spend a lot of time targeting them.

[King Davy]

I'm smelling a camp fire and the singing of cum-by-ya . We need to meet at a Gin Mill and have a drink some time.

[GAMBLER]

Ten years ago, Ibay was a perch paradise. The Greece ponds the past couple springs were way slower than normal for spawning run. Sodus has been really slow compared to ten years ago lately too. Yes there are plenty of perch to catch but it's not as easy as it used to be. I'm not saying they are gone, just not the levels they were at a while ago.

[TileMan Dan]

I am up for that King Davy.  Hell with the singing though!!

[Sk8man]

After reading these last 8 pages I can't help but throw in a response. First of all like Keith I feel that the LOU crew is in general a cut above the norm in terms of not letting emotion totally take over an intellectual discussion. After more than 40 years of salmon fishing I've learned  more details about Lake O itself from this thread than any other source I've looked at. I also note that much but not all of the commentary is subjective in nature meaning that specific data and interpretation by qualified scientists is missing from many of the issues raised and comments offered. We all have a lot to learn about the lake and it's fishery. One of the things that I keep coming back to in my own mind is the impact of the Zebra and Quagga mussels as well as the water fleas on the lake and the food chain itself along with the composite of things already mentioned as potential adverse variables (e.g. weather etc.). The food chain itself in any ecosystem is a complex interplay of many players and when a problem occurs the lower down in it that the problem occurs the greater the potential impact on the organisms above it. If the levels of phytoplankton and zooplankton have been decimated by the high levels of these invasives it could take a significant amount of time to actually see the severe impact on the higher elements in the chain such as the apex predator and its cohabitants and given the large expanse of the lake and  diverse nature of the lake structure itself  regions of the lake could be differently affected. It is not just the trout and salmon species that have been affected. The black bass and perch populations have also tanked, and it is not limited to just Lake O as the Finger lakes have also been seriously compromised and this may underscore what I'm suggesting. This is a complex problem and anyone seeking a "silver bullet" origin or solution to it is making a mistake.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Sk8man

[chinook35]

Ten years ago, Ibay was a perch paradise. The Greece ponds the past couple springs were way slower than normal for spawning run. Sodus has been really slow compared to ten years ago lately too. Yes there are plenty of perch to catch but it's not as easy as it used to be. I'm not saying they are gone, just not the levels they were at a while ago.

You can add Henderson harbor and Sackets Harbor to that list . The perch fishing has been almost non existent for the past two years .

[rw6788]

Feeble returns on fall fishing

-------------------------------------------------

No young alewives equal no Chinook: even if simple, it remains the best explanation for the horrendous Lake Michigan salmon returns in 2015. Source: The News Dispatch (10/15)

[rw6788]

The post above was taken from gl news letter

[reelintense]

Well that took awhile to read all 9 pages. I do love the lively debate, a lot of good points made on ALL sides. While I am no biologist or charter captain, I have fished these great lakes since I was a kid, and that is over 40 yrs of fishing. That has seen changes in pollution levels, effects of invasive species and since I have lived within 5 miles of Lake O for 43+ years now, I have seen the weather all over the place. A few points stick out to me in this thread....one, we are all FISHERMAN. Not trollers or casters or jiggers or whatever...we love fishing year round, regardless if we actually trib fish or pier fish or pond fish or boat fish. So we are all in this together to be united as was stated in past pages. Second, mother nature will rebalance, just a matter of when and how, not if. So how do we help mother nature, that is the question? Being flexible I think is the key, along with changes in our regulations. I am not going to say WHAT exactly should change, but why cant we have fishing regulations that flex with the changing patterns. If there are bad years, then we reduce the allowable amount of catches...both lake and trib! I am not saying CnR, but actual creel limits. Persoanlly I take only a handful of fish a year for myself.... I try and limit the friends I take out to one or two fish....I keep those I know are going to not make it, but if someone told me I could only keep 1 fish per person on board, or pick any rationally low number, I will still fish just as hard to catch and release. I think returning healthy fish is important, I think more regulations along the tribs during spawn maybe a key, I think some increased numbers of stockings is also very key. A holistic look at the system. As for my biggest pet peeve that I think should be outlawed, is the mass amount of illegal taking of spawning fish, along ALL tribs for roe! I know the SR sees a ton of people doing nothing but "ripping" salmon for their eggs and selling them. I see it along Bear Creek at sunset/night. I wont call out specific nationalities, but there is definitely some ugly illegal activities going on and I truly wonder the impact that has on reproduction? Increase presence along tribs for 4-6-8 weeks during spawn and some VERY heavy fines or jail time, might reduce this. Ok, off my soap box now. I will say extra prayers tonight for a better 2016 season! Tight Lines Everyone!

[GAMBLER]

Well that took awhile to read all 9 pages. I do love the lively debate, a lot of good points made on ALL sides. While I am no biologist or charter captain, I have fished these great lakes since I was a kid, and that is over 40 yrs of fishing. That has seen changes in pollution levels, effects of invasive species and since I have lived within 5 miles of Lake O for 43+ years now, I have seen the weather all over the place. A few points stick out to me in this thread....one, we are all FISHERMAN. Not trollers or casters or jiggers or whatever...we love fishing year round, regardless if we actually trib fish or pier fish or pond fish or boat fish. So we are all in this together to be united as was stated in past pages. Second, mother nature will rebalance, just a matter of when and how, not if. So how do we help mother nature, that is the question? Being flexible I think is the key, along with changes in our regulations. I am not going to say WHAT exactly should change, but why cant we have fishing regulations that flex with the changing patterns. If there are bad years, then we reduce the allowable amount of catches...both lake and trib! I am not saying CnR, but actual creel limits. Persoanlly I take only a handful of fish a year for myself.... I try and limit the friends I take out to one or two fish....I keep those I know are going to not make it, but if someone told me I could only keep 1 fish per person on board, or pick any rationally low number, I will still fish just as hard to catch and release. I think returning healthy fish is important, I think more regulations along the tribs during spawn maybe a key, I think some increased numbers of stockings is also very key. A holistic look at the system. As for my biggest pet peeve that I think should be outlawed, is the mass amount of illegal taking of spawning fish, along ALL tribs for roe! I know the SR sees a ton of people doing nothing but "ripping" salmon for their eggs and selling them. I see it along Bear Creek at sunset/night. I wont call out specific nationalities, but there is definitely some ugly illegal activities going on and I truly wonder the impact that has on reproduction? Increase presence along tribs for 4-6-8 weeks during spawn and some VERY heavy fines or jail time, might reduce this. Ok, off my soap box now. I will say extra prayers tonight for a better 2016 season! Tight Lines Everyone!

I just got home from perch fishing and two of the guys you mentioned above told me "no salmon we perch fish". They kept every perch they caught and most were 6-7". It is funny you mention changing the limits. The smallmouth bass population TANKED and we still have a five fish limit on Lake Ontario. This is something else that needs to be addressed.

[TileMan Dan]

Reelintense , I love your attitude and passion. Well said !!!!

[TileMan Dan]

Gambler, interesting that you memtioned smallmouth bass. Spring brown trout fishing all we caught were very nice size smallies 4-5 lbers. All the same age class. Nothing smaller. Where are those young in the system. Just saying and wondering if others notice the same ?

[GAMBLER]

Gambler, interesting that you memtioned smallmouth bass. Spring brown trout fishing all we caught were very nice size smallies 4-5 lbers. All the same age class. Nothing smaller. Where are those young in the system. Just saying and wondering if others notice the same ?

The guys I know that bass fish the lake are saying the same thing. No small ones. The lake used to be loaded with 10-14" bass. I just find it screwy that the limit has not been reduced seeing that the population is dwindled to nothing.

[Xxx]

I always wondered if there was a scientific study done on this catch and release? One thread stated by a charter captain said the mortality rate is high, another says most survived. Do the lakers survive from 150 and released when their air bladder is hanging out of their mouths? I doubt it, these two species share the same depths at times. As far as the smallies you don't catch them in numbers like years ago, but again stated above you do catch damn nice ones. I just watched on the National Geographic channel. Draining the Great Lakes. We are in a lot more trouble than we think, and it all starts with zooplankton and the other needs to have a healthy lake. Since the zebra mussels and quaza mussels have cleared up the water the algae has taken a foothold in deeper waters due to the light penetration further in the water column. They showed divers standing in knee deep dead algae and mussel waist. They also showed dead fish all over on the bottom. So the whole wheel of life starting at the beginning good algae to the shrimps to the baitfish to the alpha predetors are being affected. They also stated the water quality is far from stellar, just because it's clear doesn't mean it's clean. One thing someone asked years ago when we went to the hatchery was why when they strip the eggs from the females why doesn't someone clean the fish and give the meat to the needy? The return answer was they are to contaminated. WHAT, the same terms were used, clear water doesn't mean clean water.

[TileMan Dan]

The overall water clarity of the lake is what I find most troubling. In 10' fow you can look over the side of boat and count the pebbles. Water is lacking plankton which is the base building block for the food chain.

[Patriot]

They should close all tribs during salmon season and let the fish do what they need to do. Thats how hunting seasons are regulated.

I don't think it would hurt to close a few sections of rivers/creeks that have the best areas for reproduction.

[Patriot]

The bait population has climbed over the last couple years. Tons of bait with NO fish on it. It is not the norm. Ten years ago, you were lucky to see a couple bait schools in a trip. Now it is constant bait. We had many warm winters with very little if any die off (before 2014).

Gambler, you must fish the west end of the lake, because the east end doesn't have the bait schools like it used to be

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Davey, you don't think MANY mature 2 yr old Kings ranging from 12 to 17 lbs are big and well fed? Wow, high standards for growth. As for baitfish school observations, when stomachs are checked and you can count on one hand the species other than alewives that are observed-it's a safe assumption. I don't try to make observations for your fav rivers, please stop overstating your presence on the big lake in the last 20 yrs. Peace and good fishing with all the elbow room you desire.

[weave]

I'm a pier guy.  Year round.  No boat, but a love of fishing Lake Ontario.  I fish mostly at Point Breeze. I'm there most Saturdays that work allows at dawn from April until October.  What was most striking to me this Summer was the reduction of fry and fingerlings around the piers.  Every Summer I see huge schools of fry and fingerlings at various times in late Spring and Summer.  I don't recall seeing much of that at all this past Summer.  I don't know what species of fish I'm usually seeing, but I saw very few of them this past season.

 

I don't know if it is the last two winters, gobies, or what, but not seeing all those small fish around troubles me.  

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

Hey Weave, the first Cohos I ever caught were from those very piers. I think what you are accustomed to seeing and haven't seen many of lately are emerald shiners. They definitely were missing this year. There are several possible reasons, the severe winter killed them, an element of the food chain that they rely on was missing, or the adult Alewife out-competed them for food. I'm certain their absence was the reason the Spring Coho were so tiny . I think emeralds play a huge role in getting all the young trout and Salmon jump start in growth. What is amazing and very telling was although the Coho started at 1 to 2.5 lbs this Spring was that most of the adults ended up at 6 to 10lbs, excellent growth. Hang in there at your favorite spot, almost all of Lake Ontario's species can be caught there.