DEC response to Salmon Numbers

[GAMBLER]

The total will still be less money than the lake generates by far. Boats, riggers, fish finders, speed and temp units, rod and reel combos,Marinas, docking, maintenance, fuel, tackle, derbies/tourneys, hotels, food and much much more.

[TileMan Dan]

They should close all tribs during salmon season and let the fish do what they need to do. Thats how hunting seasons are regulated.

Edited October 15, 2015 by TileMan Dan

[GAMBLER]

Tileman I don't have problems with trib fishermen. I enjoy the tribs. My issues with the tribs is with the unethical BS that goes on. There are great sportsmen that fish the tribs but for every one good guy there are three raping the fishery.

[TileMan Dan]

I agree with that. I partake in both fisheries. Can't stand the s### show that happens when salmon run. As I stated previously we are all the prob. And the solution. In fighting needs to end.

[King Davy]

Longline there isn't doubt that king salmon generate a ton interest. But parking lots are full in the middle of Jan on a weekend. Believe me I wish they weren't. Oak orchard in November and the tiny trib just east of there have 100's of anglers on them from as far away as Colorado and Montana and they aren't here to fish salmon. It's off the chain. It's a different breed of angler to Gamblers point once the salmon crowd leaves but don't kid yourself that these people don't have expensive gear and spend tons of money. I used to fish alone on the week of thanks giving. Now I can't find a place to park that week. Take a drive from pen field at the iron to the oak on a weekend in November and tell me that it isn't busy. Now go to rivers east of here shoulder to shoulder. This doesn't mean it's desirable it just points to the fact an awful lot of people are interested in fish other than king salmon. Management of the entire species population is crucial

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

[TileMan Dan]

Well said King

[Gill-T]

This doesn't mean it's desirable it just points to the fact an awful lot of people are interested in fish other than king salmon. Management of the entire species population is crucial

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Nobody disputes this premise. We are only saying we need more Kings right now based on the current bait levels and the survival rates of salmon to adulthood. All gamefish will benefit from a lake in balance. Why are you playing devil's advocate so vehemently? For the life of me I can't figure out what is your angle? Are your DSR cronies not wanting Kings? I would think to keep the parking lots full, the DSR braintrust would be firmly in the camp of pro-kings or am I missing something? Is there an anti-king contingent among river anglers that I am not aware of?

[GAMBLER]

Chad he is an Atlantic lover. He wants the lake full of Atlantic's so he can fly fish them all summer long.

[TileMan Dan]

Gill T, what do you base your opinion on that more kings are needed to solve the lakes issues. Are you a fisheries biologist? Did your carry out any stock assessments and the lakes overall carrying capacities taking into effects of the invasives on the overall ecology of the lake. Did you do a study on the effects of "climate change" on the lake and its biomass?

[Gill-T]

My eyeballs and common sense mostly. I do actually have a degree in Biology. While many of my colleages on the same tract as me medical/dental school were told to stock up on human biology, I found taking courses in Invertebrate Zoology, Ecotoxicology, Freshwater biology etc etc much more interesting. I can read research journal articles and understand the "geek-speak". Read the LOLA report put out every four years by a Lake Ontario joint commission. The report catalogs the health and make-up of the Lake Ontario food web. There is a new push to study the DCL (Deep Chlorophyl Layer) which is below the thermocline. This layer of water has been found to be extremely productive and is probably driving the short term increase in alewives. While the upper layers of the water column are dropping in productivity, the DCL has increased productivity. This has a negative effect on epilimnion feeders like Emerald Shiners (decreasing population) and favoring adult alewives. The food web has changed. Zooplankton species that dominated the water eight years ago are being completely replaced by new bigger species of zooplankton. Again these changes favor adult alewives. Yes Tileman....I understand the picture quite well. Consider yourself informed.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Gill-T

[GAMBLER]

The bait population has climbed over the last couple years. Tons of bait with NO fish on it. It is not the norm. Ten years ago, you were lucky to see a couple bait schools in a trip. Now it is constant bait. We had many warm winters with very little if any die off (before 2014).

Edited October 16, 2015 by GAMBLER

[TileMan Dan]

Gill add a buck to your credetials and you can get a cup of coffee. Gambler where have you been living the last two winters that theyve been so warm?

[GAMBLER]

Re read my last reply. The winter of 2011-2012 was very warm. The hatch of alewives in 2012 was through the roof. Yes the last two were cold but the population was high. More kings could be stocked. They felt the alewive population could take another 300,000 very long living lake trout. Why? Because they are federal fish they do not have to pay for......

[TileMan Dan]

My point is that there is a lot more in the dynamics of the lake that need to be considered than just the abundance of alewive. If that was just the issue why have salmon returns been less than stellar. It cant be because there is not enough of feed.

[Gill-T]

Gill add a buck to your credetials and you can get a cup of coffee. Gambler where have you been living the last two winters that theyve been so warm?

I believe the decade was the warmest on record. Go on Modis/coastwatch for Lake Ontario and look at the Algae blooms going on right now on Erie, Ontario-south shore.....hell even Oneida Lake is in bloom. We are not in the same league as the other Great Lakes. Lady O spits green water.

[TileMan Dan]

My point is that there is a lot more in the dynamics of the lake that need to be considered than just the abundance of alewive. If that was just the issue why have salmon returns been less than stellar. It cant be because there is not enough of feed.

[GAMBLER]

I don't even think the DEC knows why we have had two years in a row with poor three and four year old year classes. Thiamine deficiency? Poor survival after stocking? Cormorants? If less are surviving, it makes sense to stock more.

[Rich s]

Wow, I about tapped out 3 pages ago.. United, agendas, livelihoods, economics , nobody cares..

Geesh, folks..

Seriously , isn't the state of the lake everyone's agenda ?

It's this a fishery that requires great responsibility to meet all the above .. Has it not ? If not then how/ what would ?

Haven't folks made livings off this fishery for many years and present ? Is it that bad now ?

If anyone thinks they can do better then what has / is being done by the lake management then I suggest changing careers and jumping in.. Data is proof, it requires study, trawls and assessments. Opinions are not data, fish finders are not data ..

I talked with surveys every week I went out of Mexico bay.. I watched many boats & charters blow them off.

More kings, less steelhead, less char, no worries about anyone else but the bottom line, business , that's not untied..

sorry, it was just to peaceful in the woods today to give a fish thought..

Rich

Edited October 16, 2015 by Rich s

[rolmops]

Thank you guys. It is nice to know that I'm not alone.

[TileMan Dan]

Exactly right Rich. Everyone needs to become united on this issue, studies need to be done and true data collected, andthen a "game" plan put together.

[TileMan Dan]

Gill, nice that you added to your post about your educational background with a degree in biology. As such I am sure you can realize the overall dynamics of the lake and that they need to be studied more closely. I would like to see more salmon myself but I dont think increasing stocking numbers is the answer right now until it is determined why return numbers have been off the last few years. As for you informing me , I also have a degree in Biology as well as post graduate courses in Bio. Yeah, I can sit down and read reported research studies and understand them.

[Gator]

I've got a Ph.D. and twenty five years under my belt, and I still can't make sense of it 

 

I'm seeing lots of guys posting here who are frustrated with the fishery and with some of the practices of folks who might be less...ethical...than the majority of LOU members. Heck, I'm one of them. 

 

But this is a friendly debate. In general, I'd expect this to have degenerated to name calling on most forums. I'm proud that hasn't occurred on LOU. Let's keep it that way. We can agree to disagree, respectfully.

 

We're all on the same team.

[King Davy]

So let me try this again...(and this is just what is swimming around in my brain) try and explain why I don't think the answer to the equation....is putting in more Salmon RIGHT now. And it has NOTHING TO DO....with not enjoying catching or seeing a big healthy King salmon over any other fish.

 

First off, One logically can't assume every bait fish on their screen is an alewife. The last few years trawl results have shown bio mass up ticks of other bait fish species e.g emerald Shiners, that can and will inhabit zones that alewife and predator fish reside in. When we've had a huge bio mass of alewife in the system fish like shiners and yellow perch, Shads were depressed. That just isn't the case right now. While they don't co-habit the same water columns in the summer months they for sure do at spawning time. And if there were way more alewife these other species would be barely present.  You can fill buckets of perch in LO right now, all along the shore line. I see it every weekend.

 

Next...I don't discount Vince's argument that fishing is tough if there is too much competition. Vince I understand that way more then you can know spending an evening on a trout stream that has a monster hatch of bugs, to where my fly has little chance of being eaten by the dozens of fish raising at my feet. However, if salmon are out there and gorging themselves on the huge bio mass of herring, why aren't we seeing lots and I mean lots of big fish. OK because over eating they mature faster, but we've witnessed brown trout over eating to where we get big young fish. We aren't getting overly large young fish.

 

The Weather. We know the past two winters have effected alewife body fat conditions. Causing the death of YOY fish, and creating thin mature alewife. They are thin, most probably because the food chain below them has been impacted as well. So logically if the lowest forms of the food chain is out of balance, meaning too little of it, more normal weather patterns would be required to have all of those elements of the food chain to recover. One might argue that if you take the predator of the plankton and shrimps out of play they would recover faster, but then you'd create a hole in the food chain for the top predators to continue to grow and mature. for the next say two years of fresh Salmon plants and wild fish....and it would impact the other predator species as well. All could suffer.

 

Logically balance has to recover from the tiny elements of the food chain all the way up to the top predators. And it's best done naturally. Mother nature has an infinite record of allowing what it destroys to recover healthier....(see wild forests that burn and re-grow). In my mind if you try and balance the environment from the top down, instead of how it rights itself naturally from bottom up, you run a much higher risk of longer out of balance issues, to where your top predators, ALL of them suffer.

 

I don't believe there is a magic bullet or quick fix to what Mother nature messes up. For the record last years Steelhead B1 problems were noted in the larger adult maturing fish, while the scouts and fish well under 10 pounds didn't seem to be affected from the dozens of fish I observed. Let's hear from others what they observed. This also seemed to be a bigger issue only on the east end of the lake. I observed 1 swirling steelhead in the Genny which I spend most of my time on, and none at Oak Orchard. And the logical thought is ...the forage from Rochester west is MUCH more diversified, meaning those steelhead were probably dinning on shiners and gobies, and other species ...not only herring. Which then suggests there are many more of other bait fish species swimming in those waters.

 

Now...many of you will debate and or disagree with my logical thought process, but I didn't make this scenario up...it's what we've historically seen since the dawn of this fishery. Balance is key, but not of just one element of the food chain. The chain reaction to the two coldest winters in record in 100 years was what most probably kicked this off. And then you throw in the pressure put on the fishery to the top predators from the lake and trib fisheries, for now going on 24 months when it's all said and done....and the second off summer in a row, and we now have a ton a variables in on top of the element that started the slide.

 

I can't see where not allowing the data to become picture perfectly clear from the science that is being evaluated ...(and yes it takes time, and we all hate to wait). isn't the "best" choice. I didn't say the only choice just what I...me thinks is logically the best choice. I say that simply because since the late 60's the guys doing the science, and making management decisions have a pretty darn good track record. If I'm vetting out all the choices of what do to...I keep coming back to ...I trust the guys in the lab.

 

And Gambler (I'm only having fun with you...so don't get the hair up on the back of your neck) while I do love to fish and catch Atlantic salmon, If I want the best opportunity to catch one in the Great Lakes other then Gaspe', Norway, Russia or Iceland, I'd be standing in the ST. Mary's rapids. I KNOW we aren't creating a world class sport fishery by only loading 250k salmon in....if we could then we could reduce the stocking of many other species, and have room for more different fish like Coaster Brook trout....which you should be all over since you are a Char lover.

 

And lastly my friend the Biologist Gilly. What's the issue if some body chooses to fish on a private stretch of river. Does that mean everybody who goes Elk, Deer, Moose and Bear hunting on a private ranch is wrong as well. Or PAYS to lease up land to hunt whitetails on...posts it and doesn't let anybody on. I choose to fish there because I want a shot at the freshest kings, silvers, and steelhead coming in from the lake, because my style of fly fishing is looking for biters that will chase a fly. And with plenty of room to fish. And that with river walkers, those that are gigging Salmon get run off the property. So if I want to spend the dollars to put myself in those conditions what business is it of yours to comment? The DSR is like listening to a radio station or TV program. If you don't like what you are watching or listening to... change the channel. Nobody is putting a gun to anybody's head and making them stop in there an pay. You can easily drive by. Gilly stay away from things you know nothing about....like your statement that Atlantic Salmon and Brown trout NEVER nest together. ....really?

[GAMBLER]

Davy your comment about the perch population is wrong. You may be able to catch perch by the bucket fulls but the population is down compared to 5-10 years ago. Cormorant predation, over harvest, gobies eating yoy perch and alewives eating newly hatched fry. I spend the entire fall chasing perch and have seen a drastic decline over the last ten years. The runs in the Greece ponds in the spring were way down and Ibay was dead compared to the past.

[GAMBLER]

Also like Gator stated, I'm glad we can have an adult debate over this. Other sites, people would be banned by now for childish remarks or PM threats.