Newbie questions

[Lively1]

Is this forum a good place for newbie questions from someone who is new to deer hunting? 

 

For instance, today's questions: 

 

Once you have sighted in a scoped shotgun (or rifle), do you transport the gun with the scope attached, or take it off?  Seems like the adjustments might get out of whack via unmounted/remounting, but leaving it on could result in damage during transport. (Trying to limit my investment at this point, don't have a gun case. But there might be some good deals for Black Friday.)

 

If the action seems a little tight especially from the back/open position, can I lube it with regular machine oil or would something like a spray lithium grease, or maybe graphite, or silicon be best? 

 

Thanks. 

 

If there is a better forum for questions like this please let me know. 

 

 

[Skidplate]

You could take it off as long as you leve the rings on and put in the same position on the mount ever time but I wouldn't they do it with AR 15 but only to put other stuff on for different use and I hope you used blue lock tight on the screws for the rings.And just use gun oil on the bolt don't do any fancy and yes people love answering questions on here lol good luck and don't shoot me out there haha

[Lively1]

Thanks Darkwater - sounds like you are saying leave the scope on and find a way to transport it. I looked at soft cases in the store today and they weren't too much $$. 

 

Now for newb question #3:  

 

Is there any risk of damaging a shotgun by 'dry firing' it repeatedly?  It seems like a good idea to get myself and my daughter to practice shouldering, aiming, and squeezing the trigger some BEFORE getting out on a range with live rounds, but I don't want to inadvertently damage the firing mechanism. 

[Skidplate]

Some people say with a center fire round you can but don't think I would do it to many times but a few not going to hurt definitely cant not do it with a rim fire like a 22 because the pin hits the barrel.and I keep mine in a soft case but some times its on the dashboard not in a case I don't think you will hurt anything as long as you use TLC

[JimB]

The recoil of firing the shotgun is WAY more violent than any type of vibration or jostling your gun will suffer under any type of normal use.   If you tightened the rings down nice and tight 

(don't over tighten, you can literally squeeze the scope out of whack if you do) you will be fine.  Soft cases work just fine.

 

As for dry firing, it is possible to break the firing pin.   Not real likely, but possible.  (I've done it).  When you pull the trigger on a loaded gun, the primer absorbs the energy the pin has when released.   

Without that primer, the pin expends the energy on itself, and over time, can actually weaken and cause the pin to snap.   (It was an older pump 12 ga. Ithica, but I can still hear to this day

the little "plink" the busted end of the firing pin made as it hit the far wall after breaking).

[ontherise]

Could he do it with a spent shell ?

[Broadhorizons]

I rarely use any case on my guns, right or wrong. A soft case won't protect from any major drops but will protect from scratches.

Keep the scope on. Then there's less possibility of losing zero. Like JimB said, the recoil is more shock than normal carry and transport.

They make "Snap Caps" for dry firing firearms. I would get one of them instead of risking damage to the firing mechanism.

Good luck,

Andy

[Lively1]

Newbie question #5: 

 

I need to sight in the scope on my new slug gun. What is a good distance to zero it in on?  

 

I've read 25 yds, 50 yds, 100 yds. I think maybe 50 yds only because that's the length of my driveway and it seems a reasonable distance for a shot in the woods. Much closer and the deer would spook, much further and I'd be worried about accuracy, obstructions, safety, etc. The gun is a 20 gauge with a rifled barrel and I plan to use Remington Copper Sabots, if that matters. 

[skipper19]

I would sight for 100yds. Reason is if it is dead on at 100, it will also be dead on at 25 or very close..line of sight and trajectory cross at those two points. Then at 50 yards you will only be a couple inches high on bullseye. Now you don't have to guess at hold over so much in case you see that trophy in the open. He might be 150 yards and you will still be in the park with a few inches hold over. Sighting at 50 would limit your success just in that case because hold over becomes more pronounced at 100 yards beyond your zero when set at 50 yards.

Zero your first shots at 25 after bore sighting. You should be very close to zero at 100 yards then.

Ammo is expensive...especially those coppers.

[Lively1]

So Skipper the slug is rising through the line of sight at 25 yds and then dropping below it at 100? I'm assuming line of sight is a straight line whereas the slug path is an arc. Is that the idea?  So at 50 yds you would aim a little lower, and at 150, a little higher, if zeroed in as you suggest.  

[skipper19]

I should explain bore sighting more in detail. No ammo is used in the process of aligning your scope cross hair with the bore of your firearms in an effort to place the first round on the target. Not doing this bore sighting first, will likely miss the entire target and anything less than a sheet of plywood at 100 yards..leaving you clueless to the point of impact and moving closer and firing way too many rounds to accomplish zero.

There are tools you can buy for many calibers and Guage of firearms. They are kit form and do not require taking the gun to the range to zero the gun close to the bullseye for the first shot. They are called..."bore sighters"..but cost a bit of money as they are a somewhat precision instrument. Some use laser beams and some use a grid projection that you see in the scope when it is mounted to the bore of the muzzle.

You can do this without the tool if you have a rifle or shotgun that has an open chamber to look through the barrel from the breach end towards the muzzle. That would be a break open action or bolt action. A pump shotgun or lever action will need the tool however.

If you have the bolt removed or the break open single shot chamber open, you can bore sight by looking down the barrel at an object centered in the barrel some distance away. I do mine at night at home. I use a street light or a bright object you can see when looking through the barrel. It can be a quarter mile away but I center it in the barrel of the gun while it is resting on sand bags, or blankets or what ever will hold the gun steady and not move at all. That is important!

Once the light is centered in the barrel I CAREFULLY WITHOUT MOVING THE GUN, align the windage and elevation of the cross hair on the street light....done. check the bore of the barrel once again to be sure the object is centered in the bore and check again to be sure the cross hair is also on the object. Daytime you can just use your sighting target at the range to do this.

One shot, it's on the target, very close to bullseye and you only need to make one more adjustments on the scope to fire the next round in the bullseye. Where ever your bullet strikes the target, you simply rest your gun solid without moving it and center the cross hair on the bullseye of the target. CAREFULLY AGAIN WITHOUT MOVING THE GUN AT ALL, adjust the windage and elevation to the center of the bullet impact you just fired. Fire the second round sighted at the bullseye and you should be done with a impact on the bullseye. I would do this at 25 yards. Then do the 100 yard check and any minor fine tune at that distance. 3 or 4 rounds top used for this method. You could use a lot more on another way of just lobbing rounds to get zero, but 25 dollars for 5 rounds it gets expensive!

Mark

PS ...I edited this after I discovered a little backwards explain on the scope adjust at the range and shooting your first rounds to sight in. It now reads correct.

Edited November 19, 2015 by skipper19

[Broadhorizons]

Don't start to overthink where you aim...from 0 to probably 125 yards just aim at the center of the vitals with a 100 yard zero. Don't get wrapped up in aiming high or low. The vitals are like a pie plate. A couple inches high or low of the bullet impact is still in it. If you are going to shoot out further, then hold higher as Skipper suggested.

[skipper19]

So Skipper the slug is rising through the line of sight at 25 yds and then dropping below it at 100? I'm assuming line of sight is a straight line whereas the slug path is an arc. Is that the idea? So at 50 yds you would aim a little lower, and at 150, a little higher, if zeroed in as you suggest.

Yes exactly. Your line of sight to the target is level..your bullet is travelling an arc as it fights gravity over distance and time. The bullets arc will cross your sight line at a point about 25 yards and rise just a couple inches above your sight line at mid trajectory (50 yards roughly) and at that mid range you would not have to worry about holding low to harvest a deer. The kill zone is a pie plate size and you will be well within that if you aim dead on your intended bullseye. Maybe only 2 inches high..no worry for that.

Now your bullet downrange at 100 yards falls back to your line of sight, hits the bullseye there, and it will continue to drop at a progressive rate that increases as velocity decreases. The amount of drop at say 150 yards will be something you would gather data on when you shoot that far, as you see how the rounds perform at the range and sufficient trigger time to see the performance. Then you could move on to longer yardage but that's another story and time spent behind the gun at the range.

[Lively1]

I discovered bore sighters last night, and was thinking I need one, since its a pump shotgun. I was going to ask if you zero at 25 or 100 yds with the bore sighter, but you just answered that (25). 

 

And I don't think I would have the presence of mind to aim high or low, easier to just put the crosshairs on the kill zone and not take shots beyond 100 yds. I can't imagine doing that without some serious practice time first.

 

Thanks for your help! 

[skipper19]

I discovered bore sighters last night, and was thinking I need one, since its a pump shotgun. I was going to ask if you zero at 25 or 100 yds with the bore sighter, but you just answered that (25).

And I don't think I would have the presence of mind to aim high or low, easier to just put the crosshairs on the kill zone and not take shots beyond 100 yds. I can't imagine doing that without some serious practice time first.

Thanks for your help!

With the pump shotgun, yes a bore sighters will be a great asset in saving ammo at the sight in. The laser style is great at the range and will work fine at first line of sight crossing.

The other is the grid projection and you simply make sure the pilot rod is snug in the bore, fully seated and everything tight holding the projection grid. Just move the cross hair to the center of the grid on 0. Most of these type are ones that will get you on target at 100 yards.

There are charts that show distance to first line of sight crossing for specific rounds and calibers to achieve bullseye at 100 yards. I'll see if I can locate one for the 20 ga. Remington Coppers. Not sure if you are using 3 inch or 2 3/4 shells but I don't think it would vary much between the two.

[Lively1]

I have 2-3/4 rounds only because that's what the saleman handed me at the store. I'm not sure they had 3", seems 20 gauge ammo selections are limited vs. 12 gauge.

[skipper19]

With the pump shotgun, yes a bore sighters will be a great asset in saving ammo at the sight in. The laser style is great at the range and will work fine at first line of sight crossing.

The other is the grid projection and you simply make sure the pilot rod is snug in the bore, fully seated and everything tight holding the projection grid. Just move the cross hair to the center of the grid on 0. Most of these type are ones that will get you on target at 100 yards.

There are charts that show distance to first line of sight crossing for specific rounds and calibers to achieve bullseye at 100 yards. I'll see if I can locate one for the 20 ga. Remington Coppers. Not sure if you are using 3 inch or 2 3/4 shells but I don't think it would vary much between the two.

This is an illustration of a 308 winchester 168 grain bullet and it's path of trajectory. This is not the same as a shotgun at all, but I can't find a chart for the specific Guage and round of use. This shows a good idea of what we are looking at in terms of line of sight and how the bullets path looks as it exists the barrel 1.5 inches below the scope reticle and travels to the target when the scope is aligned on the bullseye. You see the first crossing of the line of sight at 20 yards for this particular round. It is called the point blank sighted range. Then the bullet rises above the line of sight and that is the mid range rise to the second point of crossing the line of sight. That is called the long range sighted zero. In this case it is 250 yards for this round and it's velocity and weight.

Your shotgun round will do the same thing in its path, only vary by its velocity and weight also.

Since I couldn't find a point blank zero for the 20 guage 2 3/4 copper sabot, I would still use the 25 yard target distance to be close enough for 100 yard long range zero. At least you will be in line with bullseye on windage (side to side) and only have to make minor adjustments to elevation (up or down).

Every caliber has a different point blank range in relation to the long range zero at 100, but most fall between 23 to 28. I would say 25 as a good starting point for the 20 guage round.

I have a .22-250 rifle that has a point blank range of 27 yards for a long range zero of 300 yards for instance. That is an extremely fast round and light bullet with very little vertical drop over time and space. The 20 guage slug is heavy and slow in comparison and therefore it's going to max out the zero long range near 100 yards.

Hope this helps you see how this works. I wish I could tell you a more precise point blank range for your round. It might be 24 yards or 26..but 25 yards will get on the paper and less time and expense starting at 100 yards.

[Lively1]

Skipper - this has been a real education for me. THanks. 

 

Want to recognize Hesselson's in Elmira Heights NY.. when I called about buying a bore sighter they said "bring it in and we'll do it" and they did, for a very small fee. 

Edited November 19, 2015 by Lively1

[skipper19]

Skipper - this has been a real education for me. THanks.

Want to recognize Hesselson's in Elmira Heights NY.. when I called about buying a bore sighter they said "bring it in and we'll do it" and they did, for a very small fee.

You are welcome! I've burned a lot of gun powder in my time. It's been a passion of mine for attaining accuracy and doing it without a lot of frustration and more powder being burnt! Glad the shop was able to do the bore sight for you! That saves you from having a kit laying around waiting until the next firearm or next scope. It is mostly a one time operation unless something is changed with the firearm or scope in disassembly or components.

You should be good to go and fine tune that shotgun now.

Just remember that your first shot is your reference point in order to finely adjust to center shot of the cross hairs on the second shot. Bring some good sand bags or a bench rest. Have a good comfortable platform to shoot from like a picnic table.

1 Steady the gun in the bags or rest after your first shot.

2 settle the crosshairs on the center bullseye, gun resting solidly.

3 move the adjusting turrets with gun resting very still, until they intersect the first shot impact.

4 be sure the gun did not move at all

5 now take your next carefully aimed shot at the center bull and you should be perfectly center bull impact...if you did not move the gun in step 3..and step 4

That's it!

2 shots at 25 yards. Then do the same at 100 through all previous steps!

With luck your 3rd round will be center bull at 100 if not follow the steps again and your 4th round should be all that's needed.

Now it's practice at 100 for confidence and gain data on longer ranges just for fun. Try some different cartridges later and see if other brands work better. Some will, some get worse, believe me I know no two brands will compare equally.

Just for now, this close to season, stick with what you know you can do within the capabilities of the gun, cartridge, and yourself. Range time is fun on the off season, and you can learn a lot from experience. Shoot straight and shoot often!

[Hookedup]

With a good scope and only a couple rounds you can be on at 25 then back up to 100 and finish up. More important is that you have a good rest, get some sand bags under the forestock and butt stock. Nothing touching barrel or the front sling stud mount. I Did a test one day at a shooting school just letting the front stud mount hit or sit on a sand bag made a rifle shoot two feet high at 1000 yards. Not that you would notice much at 100 its the little things that can drive you nuts when setting up a scoped gun. When you're just starting out hunting keep your shots close 100 yards is a hell of a long way with a slug gun in the woods if you don't have much trigger time.

[Broadhorizons]

Remington used to have trajectories on the ammo boxes, do they still? That would give you an idea of the general trajectory for the round without individual firearm variations. If they don't, they used to be on their website.

[Broadhorizons]

Two other points to mention for hunting...

If you use a variable power scope, keep it on the lowest setting, makes finding your target easier on close animals and if you need higher power, you usually have the time to adjust on further targets.

Get flip-up scope caps. If you can't afford both, just get the back/eye piece and keep the gun pointed down. Invaluable for keeping rain out. Keep some paper towel handy and check your lenses often. Then you are ready when you get your shot.

[skipper19]

I searched online for a trajectory chart but could only find amount of drop at different ranges. Nothing that showed a trajectory line for the Remington copper sabot. Amount of drop has little value on a certain firearm but only serves data to compare to a different round. The path of travel and zero at long range would be useful if someone recorded it. Just not been able to find one.

[King Slammin]

Nikon makes a shotgun scope with ballistic reticle to be used with sabot slugs. It is an amazing tool for long range shooting in my shotgun only area. I sight in 2" high at 50 yds and the reticles allow for accurate aiming at yardages out to 250 yds, I believe. Pair this combo with a range finder and your effectively shooting at rifle distances. I killed two deer last year ( my first yr with this combo) at 110 yds running, and 150 yds open orchard.

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

[skipper19]

Nikon makes a shotgun scope with ballistic reticle to be used with sabot slugs. It is an amazing tool for long range shooting in my shotgun only area. I sight in 2" high at 50 yds and the reticles allow for accurate aiming at yardages out to 250 yds, I believe. Pair this combo with a range finder and your effectively shooting at rifle distances. I killed two deer last year ( my first yr with this combo) at 110 yds running, and 150 yds open orchard.

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

That sounds like a great thing to have on top of the big lead slinger. Pays to have good glass on the 12 guage, especially if it shoots 3 inch mag. I had cheap glass on top of a cheap, I mean "inexpensive" shotgun (cause it shot one hole groups at 50yds) for 175 bucks. Single shot heavy barrel 3 inch 12 ga. Kicked hard! But stable with the sluice pipe size barrel. Cheap glass broke from recoil.

Now I have a glass more than twice the value of the gun and makes it shoot LIKE a million dollars! Lol

Leupold...