Invasive specie regulation - Comments?

[LongLine]

Comments are being accepted for the new regs.

 

http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/104431.html

 

Note these regs apply to ALL public waterways, including Lake Ontario, not just DEC launches. 

 

Personally, I don't like the drying part...about leaving boat uncovered for 5 days in the direct sun.

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

 

 

[rolmops]

If that is what it takes to prevent yet another nasty creature from infiltrating our waters,then so be it.

But at the same time,in order for these rules to be effective, the state must provide garbage cans of one type or other so we can dispose of the weeds and other junk that ends up on our trailers while launching.

That drying in the sun thing will not work in Rochester or any other humid place because either rain or heavy dew will keep things wet.

[LongLine]

I don't like the drying part because it invites vermin & cats not mention bird crap.  Additionally, it gives potential thieves or the kids next door an easy look inside, especially when I'm not home. 

 

Rinsing the bilge may cause traces of gas/oil to go back into watershed, ground water or sewers that lead right back to the water.  Dampness is bad enough but hot water will affect wood floorboards & stringers.  Besides, my bilge doesn't leak. 

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

[skipper19]

None of it is gonna work...

The human eye can't see pollen and invertibrates...microscopic crap that sticks to water foul.

If there is no high pressure hot water wash then you can use cold water? :huh:

The door was left open too long. It's too late. It's all everywhere.

Oh well, I see a way for the state to make more money on something they forgot to manage a long time ago.

[Gator]

Got to agree with Skipper19. The regulations will place an undue burden on the average Joe, but stuff's going to find its way in somehow anyway. If you're talking about an invasive that's half a world away, then we're not the ones you have to regulate. Once it's here though, birds, amphibians, and yes, trailers, are going to inevitably spread it. The only way it won't show is if the environment isn't right for its growth of it's out-competed by something else. Sad, but Nature finds a way, right? (Good line from Jurassic Park).

 

The proposed regs might slow the spread of a few things, yeah. Like a BandAid when you're hemorrhaging. I'm a bit concerned that it's a knee jerk reaction, not founded on reality but instead perception and politics. Where's the science behind their proposal? The governor instructed DEC to come up with a plan to enforce his mandate "reasonable precautions such as removal of any visible plant or animal matter, washing, draining or drying ... have been taken." prior to launching. So DEC came up with this. Will it even work? I have to use 140F water, unless it's not available, then I get to use cold water? Huh? How is that enforceable? And if I don't want to wash my boat, I can just leave it to dry for five days? Again, huh? Where's the evidence that any of this is effective? I can understand removing visible plant material; that's just common sense. The rest of it seems like fluff. My bet is that it gives DEC license to write a ticket for just about anything they deem inappropriate.

 

And don't even get me started on non-aquatic invasives...there doesn't seem to be a tree that's not being decimated by some bug, blight, or rust, and Swallowort is like a miniature Kudzu. We are fighting a losing battle. 

[rolmops]

I beg to disagree.

Both skipper and Gator are right to a point,but only when we talk about large bodies of water. These regulations may prevent nasty critters from getting into smaller lakes or streams.The zebra mussels did get into most waters because we were not so aware and not so careful,yet we may succeed in keeping the Quaqua mussels out of some Finger Lakes. Keuka and Owasco,do not have lampreys. Let's try to keep it that way.

 I don't know if silver Lake has any nasty bugs, I certainly hope not. Again ,let's try to keep it that way.

As for the state making more money on me cleaning my boat,I don't know. But I do know that the state having to go out and fight another invasive species,does cost a lot of money.

As for the DEC writing more tickets. Those tickets will be thrown out of court way faster than fish poaching and snagging tickets. Although these regulations are potentially a stick to beat a dog.

Edited December 20, 2015 by rolmops

[skipper19]

I can think of only two ways any of the concerning invasives, bugs, disease, plants, all from oceans away, could have been averted to a degree. All of it comes back to us in this country first in excessive foreign trade...a political issue. Too much coming into ports to even begin to monitor for things the human eye can't see. Now they want to regulate the end user, as usual...us.

The second way is what nobody would like, but works to a degree on a human impact level. Having dedicated vessels to specific water systems regulated by registration to a body of water. This is done at NYC water supply reservoirs. The boat stays there, cannot be moved from shore. It is registered for operating on that body of water only. In light of the fact that most lakes are affected, and only a few are not, as Cornelius has pointed out, it makes sense to have that kind of regulation for a few lakes that are presumably clean of invasive critters. It would not impact everyone, be easy to enforce, less waste of time for resources and court traffic.

[Sk8man]

It seems to me that the comments made thus far are good ones and are on the mark.  I also believe that looking at the origins of the problem of the introduction invasive species may be productive as well. A lot of these problems have resulted from the indiscriminate discharge of the ballast from commercial vessels transiting the seaway from far away places and the total lack of monitoring or intervention of any kind by the government or even the identification of responsibility for this monitoring from the looks of it. Targeting the end user for responsibility is in itself irresponsible on the part of DEC or the state government.  There should have been existing governmental accountability for preventing and intervening in this mess long ago at the originating level not the individual end user level "after the fact". In large part the proverbial "horse is already out of the barn". If a state agency had been charged with the close monitoring of ships entering the seaway and perhaps something like enforcing the use of a non-toxic colored dye being mandated to be placed in any ballast permitted to travel in these waters allowing the detection of the discharge and then routine monitoring by duly authorized agency watercraft or planes this whole mess may have been minimized or avoided. Would there have been an expense connected with it? yes...but the commercial entities using the seaway could have been tagged with footing the bill perhaps avoiding some of these issues and heavy fines could have been levied similar to oil cleanup funds instead of holding innocent end users culpable for a problem they didn't create after the fact. Perhaps something like this could prevent or reduce the liklihood of future introductions into our waters.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Sk8man

[muskiedreams]

Hopefully they will be reasonable in enforcement.

 

The "visible to the human eye" wording could be misinterpreted unfairly. This will mean that you will have to make sure you clean up all the little pieces of weeds you pick off your lures that end up all over your boat. That is where I have a problem with the aforementioned wording. You might not be able to find and remove all the little bits of weeds in every nook and cranny inside your boat after each fishing trip. You could probably look in just about any boat after it is cleaned and find something that was missed. Also, it is hard to crawl under your boat to make sure you remove every little bit of weeds caught down there or caught between bunk or roller and hull. So there should be some wording that allows for reasonable effort.

 

Here is some interesting wording under c) Treating, 1. Drying Method.

 

iii. If the drying methods described in subparagraph (i) or (ii) above and the rinsing methods described in paragraph 2 below are not available prior to launching, towel dry portions of the watercraft hull, engine, trailer and associated equipment that have been in contact with the waterbody prior to launching in another waterbody; or

 

Of course, how will they even know if you dried or rinsed your boat since you last used it unless they were watching you (Person of Interest).

 

Now there is an exemption for those who launch at the same launch all the time but will they take your word for it when you go back to the same launch with weeds all over the floor of your boat? Will this cover you if you commonly launch at several launches on Lake Ontario in the same vicinity. What about if you mostly fish the upper Niagara River but decide to hit the Lower Niagara?

 

I just hope they will be reasonable.

Edited December 21, 2015 by muskiedreams

[rolmops]

Could it be that these rules are introduced because of Mississippi river origin boats that are trailered to  either Lake Eerie or Lake Ontario for the Salmon season? Chicago is not that far away and the carp are right next to Chicago

[LongLine]

Question?  What invasives has the DEC fought?  Other than lamprey, which they have admitted that they can't eradicate and that lake where they killed everything thinking there might be Snakeshead in it.  Did the bait regulations stop the spread of VHS? 

 

NYS did try to make very tough laws about freighters entering the Seaway but got shot down by the Feds. 

 

Wouldn't trailering a boat from Chicago or the Mississippi to Big O at highway speeds would be more than sufficient to dry it off/out? 

 

I'm all in favor of a war on invasives. ( I have always removed all weeds from my trailer, pulled the drain plug and put the engine down for a couple of minutes after every retrieval; even turn the engine a couple times out of water without starting it).  I just don't see how the details of the reg are going to really be effective.  Flush the engine?  Towel dry?  Who can really wash every inch of the bottom of an aluminum boat? (rivets, seams, runners?)  Wash the trailer? (inside the hollow tubing frame? inside the lights?)  

[rolmops]

Question?  What invasives has the DEC fought?  Other than lamprey, which they have admitted that they can't eradicate and that lake where they killed everything thinking there might be Snakeshead in it.  Did the bait regulations stop the spread of VHS? 

 

NYS did try to make very tough laws about freighters entering the Seaway but got shot down by the Feds. 

 

Wouldn't trailering a boat from Chicago or the Mississippi to Big O at highway speeds would be more than sufficient to dry it off/out? 

 

I'm all in favor of a war on invasives. ( I have always removed all weeds from my trailer, pulled the drain plug and put the engine down for a couple of minutes after every retrieval; even turn the engine a couple times out of water without starting it).  I just don't see how the details of the reg are going to really be effective.  Flush the engine?  Towel dry?  Who can really wash every inch of the bottom of an aluminum boat? (rivets, seams, runners?)  Wash the trailer? (inside the hollow tubing frame? inside the lights?)  

Agreed,regulations are made by lawyers and they are written in legalese. I think that in their own stunted way they are trying to tell you to do the best you can cleaning up your boat . I showed these regulations to a lawyer friend of mine. He read them and then told me that these regulations are so riddled with holes,that they cannot be intended to be used in a court of law.

Edited December 21, 2015 by rolmops

[Sk8man]

Since the day I bought my present boat in 2002 I have taken it immediately after fishing to a car wash wherever I am and use the high pressure and hot water/detergent and then wax to clean it as best I can. It has messed with my decals a bit though

Edited December 21, 2015 by Sk8man

[Adm Byrd]

Why don't our elected officials (our beloved Cuomo)  ever consult with the people they have working for them (DEC) before they create a new law that is too little too late, nearly impossible to enforce and vague enough to be open to multiple interpretations...Sounds like another  SAFE act.

More grandstanding at it's worst.

Bob

[Rich s]

Well one of the toughest lakes in NY with regs that I have been is Lake George. You need your boat inspected and a sticker before entering the water . Anything, such a water in the boat at all requires a power wash prior being allowed to pass and get a sticker.

Hopefully things don't go that far because LG is a nightmare not to mention the time and resources that it entails.

[Gator]

We've done the LG thing, and they're militant about it. Of course, they also have a huge problem with an invasive aquatic plant. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I mean, how do you get some of this stuff in farm ponds? Nobody launches their boat...

 

I'm a big proponent of protecting our waterways. But I hate rules that aren't based on evidence. They may sound good, but do they really work? The lack of certain invasives in some waterways may be due to a lack of sufficient habitat or an appropriate reproductive niche. Or maybe there's been some measure of success. I hate to think that we're powerless to stop this stuff, but then I look around.

 

Crap, now I'm depressed. Great way to start a week. Got to go break some bulbs!!

[Has Been]

 At the ADKs the last few years there is  someone from a college or the state at each state  public launch most of the time most every day all day  at a card table inspecting boats. they give it the once over and ask where you last were . I think they are very worried about the lakes up there. Seems like window dressing to me. But who knows.

[Rich s]

Yes having the internship from Cornell at the adk ( Schroon and Mexico) launches was no big deal. They were taking surveys, passing out information of invasives and doing a walk around. In no way were they going to approve or reject if you're ok to launch.

Lake George is a whole different ball of wax , it's some type of clam ( not zebra mussels) that is the big deal there. They started putting matts on the bottom of lake to try and smother them.

If things escalate at the scale LG is then we are all in serious jeopardy of being able to launch our boats anywhere but a single water body.

Right now yes , it seems like it's a judgement call to use reasonable precaution.

Rich

[Bag Lady]

Would this "5 day drying" process ....prevent fishermen from going to more than "one" lake,waterway or launch ...in the :same" day? If that would be the end result, ... that might put a "damper" on sportsmen/women ... on their summer/fall fishing trips? Red flag ... for revenue building?

[Gill-T]

There is no way to drain large ocean-going vessels ballast water completely or sanitize it.  Legal wording to the effect of "reasonable" attempt to remove plant matter from the boat before transporting should be used.  I am picturing my boat as it comes out of Olcott harbor coated with Duck Weed.......no way to get all that stuff off underneath the carpet bunks and boat bottom interface.  A pipe dream.

[lineman49]

Les, I believe you hit the nail on the head 100% with your #8 comment! Because the DEC. & other gov't. agencies did not do their jobs in the first place now they come after the little guys. They should have been checking & fining the freighters & shipping co.'s years ago when entering our inter coastal water ways!

[muskiedreams]

There is no way to drain large ocean-going vessels ballast water completely or sanitize it.  Legal wording to the effect of "reasonable" attempt to remove plant matter from the boat before transporting should be used.  I am picturing my boat as it comes out of Olcott harbor coated with Duck Weed.......no way to get all that stuff off underneath the carpet bunks and boat bottom interface.  A pipe dream.

The word "reasonable" is used in the first sentence and also other places in the text.

 

Here is a link to the previous page on the DEC site which also has contact information to for public comment and also Impact Statement, etc. http://www.dec.ny.gov/regulations/2359.html

 

 At Lake George there is a particular clam that came from Asia that they are trying to get control over, among other things like eurasian watermilfoil. I am guessing that they are also monitoring that program to see what effect the efforts have controlling the eurasian watermilfoil and other invasives. It seems to me that it is going to be very difficult to effectively control invasives that are already here without finding natural enemies that will not have adverse impact elsewhere.

 

For anyone who is interested, I ran across this 132 page report that was just published in July this year, that outlines an invasive species management plan. I am sure implementation of everything in the plan will not be possible unless new technologies provide solutions. It does make for some interesting reading on the subject. One thing that I think will be important going forward is that we all understand and, within reason, do our part to try to keep the problem under control, including spreading the word.

 

New York State

AQUATIC INVASIVE SPECIES

MANAGEMENT PLAN

[Gill-T]

Right.....I am saying I am agreeing with their usage of the term "reasonable" in the spirit of the law as it pertains to the boater needs to make a reasonable effort to remove cling-ons.  I do that now anyway.

[FishingTheFL]

Three Letters.... GMO...

Add some vital weakness to genetics. Mostly thinking of Mussels. Plants are a different story. I believe that we can get it under control with new understandings of genetics. Use Darwin's theory in the favor of mother nature. Gotta remember tho changing the DNA could also spread that DNA to environments where they naturally exist and making that environment unstable.

I know some one is saying just get rid of them lol

[Gator]

I like the way you think!! I do get concerned about unanticipated consequences though. You can see that in some of the biological control measures they've brought in to combat invasives that have on their own become problems. The best intentions...kudzu was introduced by the Corps of Engineers as means of bank stabilization almost a century ago. Now it's eaten the South.

 

I seem to recall reading about how they engineered mosquitoes with latent sterility and wanted to release them on one of the Florida Keys. The residents were all for it, until they heard that the new control measures involved Frankensquito 

 

I think that the best approach might be to engineer a reduced tolerance for environments outside of a defined niche. Key in on things like salt. We understand that process fairly well and small tweaks might work.