Flouro Leaders

[Big Water]

A question for you experts. I've run flouro leaders occasionally but most often I'm running straight mono since I'm getting pretty good results and with the color in the water, I'm not sure how visible they are down 50-70 anyway. Now trying to figure if flouro will make any significant difference. Also, is there any real difference between flouro line and flouro leader other than hardness? I ask because I go through a lot of leaders having a diamond plate floor on my deck and a single step on the line compromises the line. Bottom line, how much difference do you feel that true flouro leader material makes?

[bloodruntackle]

Bigwater, I can take a whack at this ...as it is a common question asked for many Great Lakes fishermen, walleye and salmon (and, steelhead, bass & musky).   Rarely in Great Lakes or many of its tributaries is the water so clear that complete invisibility of the line is required.   Sometimes however in top layers of the water column, or certain streams...it really is required!

 

99.9995% of the time Fluorocarbon is used in freshwater (and stained water) is for its durability, abrasion resistance, and in some cases stiffness.    100% fluorocarbon leader material is not the same thing as fluorocarbon fishing line.   Fluorocarbon fishing line is a mix of fluorocarbon resins and nylon resins used in the manufacturing process of standard monofilament.    Fluorocarbon line is a less costly product that excels neither in durability nor invisibility, so essentially offers no benefit whatsoever over standard less expensive clear mono..

 

Short answer, 100% fluoro is used by salmon fishermen (and walleye, steelhead, bass, musky) in freshwater for its properties other than invisibility.   Nothing is better when it comes to flies and meat rigs either, particularly with stiff brands which transmit roll and whip from rotating flashers like we use while trolling for salmon.

 

We coat some of our mono for example with fluorocarbon, to add better abrasion resistance and durability to notoriously soft and stretchy mono.   Zebra mussels, nets, coolers, diamond plate deck, tangles into copper and stainless, wrapping fish around downrigger cables.    There is probably no more of a line/leader abusive fishery than Great Lakes trolling.

 

Hope that helps!

[Big Water]

Thanks Bloodruntackle! So it all boils down to "toughness" and rigidity. Makes sense that my mono seemed to produce as well as my infrequent use of flouro since the invisibility factor isn't an issue in common trolling situations. Since I retie and make new leaders very often, the question then becomes whether I would need to do so less frequently with flouro. I'm really having very, very few bite-off problems so it seems like durability is the benefit.

Btw, your 60# copper really makes a difference. I know it puts more fish in the boat, whatever the reason.

Edited February 9, 2016 by Big Water

[Sk8man]

In no way do I pretend to be an "expert" regarding the scientific aspects of fishing lines but I do have an opinion that I'd like to offer despite it possibly not being a popular one with some folks.  I also respect the folks at Blood Run Tackle and I buy their products.

 

After spending my whole life fishing fresh and salt water environments I've used everything from the old nylon braids from the 1950's through the monofilaments, dacrons, copolymers and more recently the fluorocarbons as well as all the wire types from copper, monel, stainless, and titanium. Each type of line was developed with specific chemical and physical characteristics or properties  that translates basically to "compromises" depending on the environment used and the particular line selection for that environment (including temperature ranges, UV light etc.) and like many things in life each type has its strengths and weaknesses. One of the very things that is a "strength" of fluorocarbon lines is also it's Achilles Heel or "weakness" and that is the rigidity of it. Yes it is stiff but it also breaks at the knot frequently and extremely low temperatures make it brittle as well such that it can break more readily. It also has little to no stretch which for some things is desirable because it allows you to "feel" light hitting fish like perch or bluegills and walleyes for example, but for others a little stretch may be desirable or even necessary. I know many fly manufacturers use it for tying trolling flies and I used to as well in my own home made flies until I had a some salmon break the commercial flies I was using right at the hook knot. These were popular commercially tied flies and used by folks here on LOU. I decided to start tying my own flies with 50 lb mono (Big Game clear) two seasons ago and never had a break off or other problems with it since switching. 50 lb mono is fairly stiff and the Big Game stuff although inexpensive is quite abrasion resistant and durable....It also has very good knot strength. I have also tried the majority of fluoro lines and I use Seaguar fluoro for many applications just not trolling flies which I think benefit from slight stretch when a large salmon hits it and I don't use snubbers either.

 

Although line visibility can be a factor generally in shallow clear water my hunch is that it is much less of a factor down deep or in marginal visibility. I also question a basic assumption regarding fluorocarbon line that appears over and over in the advertisements and in my view is a "marketing ploy" rather than an unbiased research result and that is that allegation that it is invisible to fish. How many fish do you suppose responded to the survey? Their eyesight is quite different than ours from a structural standpoint  and because  fluoro may appear invisible to humans underwater or otherwise it may bear no relationship to the eyesight of fish. To me it is an unproven statement despite  anecdotal reports and experiences. 

Edited February 9, 2016 by Sk8man

[Nautitroller]

Great insight Les, I can say after reading feedback on different lines that I tried 15lb. Seaguar Red label 100% floro on my lead cores. I shortened my leaders to 12-15' and I can say my catch rate went up compared to just 30lb big game. They are running pretty shallow and well back and away from the boat thus creating stealth and action by the inline boards. I feel this has made a catch rate difference. I guess experimenting is the key. I took what folks on here have gone with and tried it in my own setup. I haven't had a problem with knots (Palomar) which some floro lines can fail at, but I'll always try something new if someone suggests it and if it catches more fish I'm in!

Sent from my C771 using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[Legacy]

Bottom line, how much difference do you feel that true flouro leader material makes?

 

Im using fluorocarbon every where i can. Meat rigs, fly leaders, diver leaders, copper leaders, cheaters, downrigger rods, etc. Is it a must? No but the my tournament fishing mentality tells me that if it results in even one or two more fish, every trip out then it is worth every penny. I question anyone who tells you that it is not something that you need. Define need? Do we need line counter reels? No. Do we need down speed? I guess not. But with them we catch more fish. Guys can catch fish using straight mono for sure but they will be out fished by the guys going that extra yard. We all know its stealth abilities. While it may not be invisible, it certainly offers the best solution. I leader with fluoro for "stealth" with spoon rods and also flatlines in skinny water and short cores but I would say the majority of it use is really for durability. Fish after fish, it puts up with beating that mono just wouldnt allow. Its not just fish we have to consider. Charter clients, zebra mussels, nets, tangles, along with an occasional fish help shorten the life of any line. The durability factor is the most apparent in fly leaders and meat rig leaders. Unlike most leaders, these see a lot of direct contact between the fish and the line itself (most of that with a mouthful of teeth). Fluorocarbon's stiffness provides great action to a fly and meat presentation but In my opinion that day when a king has engulfed the hook and is chewing directly on the leader you will be thankful you are fishing fluoro.

[Sk8man]

I knew what I said above would be controversial and after all it is an opinion and like the invisibility issue not solid results based on repeatable research and I edited it to highlight the fact that I too use fluoro for most things other than trolling flies. My general view of fluoro is much the same as Rob's but for folks new to this stuff it is intended to make people think about things not commonly said here so that they can be aware that none of these things are without concerns, potential issues, and not everyone has an identical experience using them. One of the things that I always have in the back of my mind is that fishing itself involves a great deal of superstitious behavior (and I admit to it ) and we frequently think that the colors of lures, the exact distance of our lines set to even numbers (usually), the concept of "stealth" which is largely an assumption and possibly is only stealthy in our own minds and only stealthy if it works, and all the various things we do to get hits might just be superstitious behavior. It is possible that the action of the lure combined with closeness and attractiveness of the turbulence in the water at that particular point in time  fools the fish into its potentially fatal action of grabbing it. An argument that flies in the face of this view is "repeatability" of results but again a lot of different variables are operating at once so line stiffness, visibility or lack of it, and the things we assume to be going on may not be the only things responsible. All I am saying is we always need to examine our "assumptions" and not treat them necessarily as "fact".

Edited February 9, 2016 by Sk8man

[Silver Fox]

Also, not all fluorocarbon leaders are created equal. I used to use seguar on everything till I tried the bloodrun leader material. The bloodrun is the stiffest I've ever used and have stuck with it.

[Gill-T]

Since you are fishing out of Wilson you have the the advantage of green water all year. Occasionally there are early spring conditions when it doesn't rain for awhile that the shoreline trolling season requires a Fluoro leader. Yes on Fluoro leader for flies. Early season offshore might be another example of wanting fluoro leaders. Other than that......green mono.

[bloodruntackle]

I knew what I said above would be controversial and after all it is an opinion and like the invisibility issue not solid results based on repeatable research and I edited it to highlight the fact that I too use fluoro for most things other than trolling flies. My general view of fluoro is much the same as Rob's but for folks new to this stuff it is intended to make people think about things not commonly said here so that they can be aware that none of these things are without concerns, potential issues, and not everyone has an identical experience using them. One of the things that I always have in the back of my mind is that fishing itself involves a great deal of superstitious behavior (and I admit to it ) and we frequently think that the colors of lures, the exact distance of our lines set to even numbers (usually), the concept of "stealth" which is largely an assumption possibly is only stealthy in our own minds and only stealthy if it works, and all the various things we do to get hits might just be supersitious behavior. It is possible that the action of the lure combined with closeness and attractiveness of the turbulence in the water at that particular point in time  fools the fish into its potentially fatal action of grabbing it. An argument that flies in the face of this view is "repeatability" of results but again a lot of different variables are operating at once so line stiffness, visibility or lack of it, and the things we assume to be going on may not be the only things responsible. All I am saying is we always need to examine our "assumptions" and not treat them necessarily as "fact".

 

Thanks for your support Sk8te, always enjoy your posts.  You definitely touched on a big point that many overlook, but is important.  Everyone does have their favorite program, setups, rigs, colors, baits.   But it is all of those things that come together at that particular place at that particular time which is most important..and then then ability to duplicate it over and over again for the rest of the trip to fill your box.   And then, recognizing that same set of variables three years from now, and putting that same program back down and having success again.

 

Confidence in a certain color, lure, speed, lead length, leader material, mono color, bead color, etc are what matters to the individual.   If you are catching more fish than anyone else is that day, that week, that month, that season...will tell you alot about how good your game is.   If you are not catching at the same rate other top guys are, that is when you look closer at the little things to impact your program.   Do the top guys use fluoro, wire, braid, leadcore and how/when..what speeds  do they troll, what lead lengths they pull, etc.   We have had guys come up to us on various occasions and swear something we sold them made a big impact, thats great.   Even we see it ourselves...example...we catch lake trout 10-1 using our blue tournament mono over our clear tournament mono.  What's up with that?   Fact as we see the results, or random occurrence happening over and over again for multiple seasons?   Doesn't matter, all I know is I won't be trout fishing without our blue mono down

[Sk8man]

  Well said!

[TyeeTanic]

I troll on Lake O and also stream fish using a float rod. I can tell you even with 4 lb fluoro line that in gin clear water, steelhead see that line. Everytime I drift in clear water, the fish see the line and move side to side to steer clear. It's actually hilarious to see.  It's almost like they don't even get spooked, they just move 2 feet over to the left, and then to the right.

 

So I agree it's more about the strength properties of fluoro.  If you are careful tying the knots (especially with 20 lb and lower rated line), then you will be fine.  I had a popular known quick snap BB swivel break before my 30 lb fluoro snapped (it was odd, happened last year, manufacturer did good addressing the issue, so I don't want to name any companies). 

 

Fluoro is friggin strong. And as per Sk8man, I only use Seagur.

 

And yes, I'm slightly supersticious and won't use mono leader because I think the fish will see it easier.  I can't prove that part!

[BAZOOKAJOE]

I ran floro leaders on my down rigger rods for several years. Then last spring I had back-to-back Kings break my buddy off with 15 lbs leader. I decided to just run straight 20 lbs big game right to the spoon. The water we were fishing was pretty dirty. Fish kept hitting and we didn't lose anymore. Then we caught Browns a few weeks later in clear water (on a sunny day) without leaders. All was done in the upper 20 ft of the water column. I'm not such a believer anymore. I will say the floro is more abrasion resistant. But I think a heavy duty mono ties knots easier and has better knot strength. And you eliminate extra knots that could fail and be your potential weak spots.

[reeldilemma33]

Mainline- kind of same topic...

What lb test and brand does everyone use? I fish Seneca and Ontario from time to time

[reeldilemma33]

Obviously bloodruntackle blue down for Lakers [emoji12]

[Sk8man]

Bloodrun SeaFlee 30 lb here both environments

[Yankee Troller]

Since you are fishing out of Wilson you have the the advantage of green water all year. Occasionally there are early spring conditions when it doesn't rain for awhile that the shoreline trolling season requires a Fluoro leader. Yes on Fluoro leader for flies. Early season offshore might be another example of wanting fluoro leaders. Other than that......green mono.

 

You beat me to it Gill-T! 

 

On our boat we use Flouro leaders when we're pulling spoons (probably more a mental thing), and for our fly harnesses. 

[Yankee Troller]

Mainline- kind of same topic...

What lb test and brand does everyone use? I fish Seneca and Ontario from time to time

 

On the Yankee we run 25lb mono on our downrigger sticks. We use the Flouro to leader down. When pulling spoons for Brown Trout 8-12lb Flouro leaders depending on water clarity. When pulling spoons for Steelhead 15lb flouro, and when pulling spoons for Salmon 20lb Flouro.

[Gill-T]

Apparently I am having a micromanagement crisis.....one thing to consider when choosing your leader strength is delivery method. My shoreline rods are set-up with 15 lb green mono with 12 lb green leader. I use otter boats. If I used in-line boards with the extra weight and resistance I would not leader down.

[BAZOOKAJOE]

I do leader down when pulling sticks in the early spring. But last year I was out of floro so I bought a spool of 12 lbs viscous fluorocarbon line and didn't notice any difference in amount of fish caught. I usually tie new leaders on before every trip.

[Big Water]

Thanks for all of the great replies guys. A lot to digest.

[BAZOOKAJOE]

If I had a diamond plate deck I would buy the expensive floro leader material just for the extra abrasion resistance.

[Paul Czarnecki]

Wow! Great discussion and a LOT of overthinking going on. Hope spring gets here soon!

[Sk8man]

True but not everyone viewing things here is a highly experienced charter guy either and hopefully the discussion will generate some increased interest in trying different approaches for some or to give a little backdrop to others new to the sport.

[BAZOOKAJOE]

Wow! Great discussion and a LOT of overthinking going on. Hope spring gets here soon!

Lol!! True!!!