Sale of FIsh

[flyrod2]

At the request of a few on this forum we dicided it was time to put this out to all. We have a high school elective science class that is doing a whole class project on the selling of fish in NYS by hook and line. We often hear that young people are not engaged enough in other than electronics. For various reasons we chose to look into the selling of fish and potential ban. Class has numerious power point type projects, youtube video and soon to release online petition. They have met with DEC fish biologist and will soon be meeting with a local state representative who we hope will be sponsoring a bill to ban sale of fish caught by sporting license. Don't hear of that too often. Many of the reasons have been hashed out on forums like this and others. Our students feel they have a sound grasp of the situation, and yes they have read threads on here. They understand that some have great wisdom and insight to our fisheries. Obviiously those that sell and those that buy will disagree, but these students are also creating counters to many of the reasons why some still chose to want to sell. Could go on, but we all know the story, now it is up to all of us. Need to contact DEC and local legislators and make this a forefront issue. These students have laid the ground work through your concerns. I may take pic of their resolution and post.Thanks to Les and others for their wisdom, which I will take over underwater video cameas any day. There are truly plenty out there who care more about long term effects before sort term satisfactions. Some thought that snagging and lining fish was awsome and hid under the guise that it was legal. When that was banned some thought it would destroy the local economy. Guess no one fishes the Salmon River since that took affect. Assume this ban will have same affect.

[Kingfisher06]

I thought it was an interesting dynamic to watch a small scale, rather uninhabited example of free market economics play out during the ice fishing season in Chaumont. You could see perch prices rise and fall in accordance to supply. You could see slot limits dictated by the buyer vary with demand and supply. I very much enjoyed selling my perch and taking that cash to the restaurant next door and buying a fresh basket of fried perch and some beers after a long day on the ice. Heck, on the some of the better days it'd pay for my gas, bait, dinner and put a few bucks in my pocket for the next trip. I enjoyed the competitive nature it instilled in folks; tight lips about hot spots, keeping their keyboards silent on the internet and overall sense of accomplishment when they succeeded over others. Most importantly, it was a real reason to protect the resource.There weren't many dead serious, everyday fisherman trying to make enough to pay the bills, but you knew who they were: Carpenters out of work for the winter, local agricultural folks, and old timers. Guys who'd rather sell perch, maintain a tradition, and are too humble to feel entitled to a NYS unemployment welfare check. It's a lack of free market principles, individual responsibility and its replacement with State sponsored crony capitalism that degrades our resources. Why not a lesson on one of the last little sweet vestiges of a free market system, rather than indoctrinating children into the problem?  

Edited March 8, 2016 by Kingfisher06

[Sk8man]

It is always interesting to see the other side of an issue and to see the rationale used to justify one's opinions and actions. The problem with the above "rationalization is that it first omits a glaring fact and that is that the fish resources are PUBLIC resources not the product of man made efforts and investment and the profit from it should actually belong to the public not private personal enterprise.  Even more interesting yet distasteful is the attempt to discredit the students as being "indoctrinated" when in fact they appear to be much more enlightened than many adults on this issue, and are taking responsible action toward bringing about a solution to a vexing problem through responsible legitimate channels. They and their thoughtful teacher should be applauded not denigrated. They are talking about sport fishermen selling perch not licensed commercial fishermen and they are calling attention to a complex of both existing and potential problems that can affect us all as sport fishermen and I for one commend them for it. The "red herring" approach above bringing out the "American work ethic", the "free enterprise system", and "moms apple pie" as an excuse  for reaping the benefits that actually belong to the public at large as a resource to be sheparded into the future for other generations needs to be seen for just what it is through its thin disguise - selfish behavior.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Sk8man

[Big Water]

Well said, thought out and insightful Sk8man . Thank you!

[spoonfed-1]

Curious as to how old these children are?

[Sk8man]

High School students and very thoughtful bright ones I might add.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Sk8man

[spoonfed-1]

Thanks.

Good age to be involved in such issues.

Are there creel limits on panfish?

[lakebound88]

I'm curious as to the what classifies the commercial fisherman, the aspect and view that a person who obtains a sport license shall not be allowed to create a source of income on a public Fisher baffles me. My question is, what is your opinion on charter captains? Because the trips we run, simply put, put money in our economy, whether if be, hotels, licenses, eateries, and whatever else ma cause a customer to a use their money towards a day of fishing. Either way, I will say, it's $ in my pocket. I'm sharing our fishery, although I don't make squat, but I am able to keep a boat and hobby. This subject baffles me. It seems only a few select bodies of water are "hurt" by the commercial sale. Where is the proof? Because I for one have not yet seen the devastation described. Please fill me in. Politely I may ask. As I do no understand. I know for a fact, my business has not hurt the fishery(TROUT and salmon). Nor ones alike. If this all comes down to perch fishing, and the taking of perch, the rightful number the state has given us, where is the actual issue? I guess I just want more answers, or facts to the honest. Not from an angler view but a biologist view please. Any links? I'd like to read up.

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[Kingfisher06]

Well said, thought out and insightful Sk8man . Thank you!

I'll disagree. The idea that fish are public resources that are and can never be thought of or be in one's ownership once caught, is not only wrong, but a very scary notion. If I have several bags of frozen perch in my freezer that are stolen during the course of a burglary and that's all they take, can't I call the police to have someone arrested? Sk8man believes any profit from these public resources belongs to the public. Hey all you charter fisherman on here, no more profit, it all goes to the state, every dollar forked over by clientele according to Sk8man. Unless of course you agree to strict catch and release charters where folks can no longer bring home a meal. Wow, this guy is my worst nightmare. He is all of our worst nightmares, but that's unfair to speak on behalf of folks, maybe some charters believe this too, maybe some folks worship Trotsky other than Sk8man.

 

Yes, indoctrinated Sk8man. Appealing to the State to create more cumbersome laws to solve hurt feelings of the weak and impinge upon others traditional means of making money is the teachings of giving the state more power over the people, rather than letting a fair market situate itself naturally. These kids are in a teaching situation, they are vulnerable. It's a dangerous and un-American notion.

 

The only vexing issue I see is envy. These hook and line guys who make a buck are really good at what they do. They are locals who put their time in, have been figuring out the lake for ages through familial tradition and make an easy scapegoat for why the confident jerk can't fill his pal. They claim it's over fished and the sellers are depleting the fishery, therefor they can't catch. There is not one single ounce of scientific evidence from DEC surveys that this tradition is hurting perch populations in the eastern basin of Lake O.

 

Instead of jumping to the conclusion that selling perch will solve perceived problems, how about the teacher promote the children to survey fisherman about selling perch. Would perch fisherman stay home if they couldn't sell them? Would perch fisherman continue to fish at the same rate? How does selling perch affect their living?

 

I am not a selfish person. I am just scared of people like you Sk8man. You round up folks and gang up on individual liberty through the hammer of the State. You are relentless and will use the innocence of youth to promote an agenda that is just emotional and baseless.   

[Big Water]

I have to respectfully disagree Kingfisher. The laws were written in a different time, a different environment and without anticipation of all possible consequence. As with many things, the system does not protect against potential abuse from self serving interests misaligned with the general good. Being legal and being correct are often two different things.

[Kingfisher06]

I have to respectfully disagree Kingfisher. The laws were written in a different time, a different environment and without anticipation of all possible consequence. As with many things, the system does not protect against potential abuse from self serving interests misaligned with the general good. Being legal and being correct are often two different

There are no more netters, just the ones grandfathered in, which is just one or two permits for the Chaumont area. Show me some definitive scientific data that proves hook and line selling is hurting this stable "public resource" to such a significance that a new law is required and I'll concede. There is none. This is a emotional reaction by folks who hear of great catches on Chaumont through the internet, come here on a east wind, catch 8 keepers, drive by signs and advertisements from buyers and cry their eyes out. 

[Kingfisher06]

I have to respectfully disagree Kingfisher. The laws were written in a different time, a different environment and without anticipation of all possible consequence. As with many things, the system does not protect against potential abuse from self serving interests misaligned with the general good. Being legal and being correct are often two different things.

The general good is to keep fresh perch and bullheads in our local restaurants, not talapia. The general good is not to knee jerk on emotions and hurt people who are only up to good. 

[Kingfisher06]

Thanks.

Good age to be involved in such issues.

Are there creel limits on panfish?

No not in the Golden Crescent of Jefferson County, no limit on panfish. 

[Kingfisher06]

Thanks.

Good age to be involved in such issues.

Are there creel limits on panfish?

No not in the Golden Crescent of Jefferson County, no limit on panfish. 

[Sk8man]

  Oh my God... talk about being misguided...wow! I think some of the commentary above speaks for itself so I wont bother addressing it. By the way when I referred to selfish behavior I was referring to the folks who sell the perch not necessarily to you.

 

First of all the existing laws already prohibit the sale of gamefish. Charter Captains are licensed to do what they do (i.e provide services to the public) and I in no way meant them or private enterprise itself. What I am referring to is the harvesting of undersized and over the present legal limit of perch (50) and the sale of such perch to restaurants. As far as the "unfortunate guy" example just providing for his family you mentioned I know the other side of the story for example of a guy who lives on one of the Finger lakes who is retired and he retired at 100 percent of his salary which was probably upwards of 80 thousand dollars and he fishes for perch everyday from his cottage on the lake and sells his catch to local restaurants.To me that smacks of greed. I do not know how exactly many fish he takes but he is one of the most effective perch guys I've ever known and I've known him since childhood. I have personally seen guys at launch ramps on both Canandaigua and Seneca with more than their legal limits of perch just last Fall so it is reality not just some idea I cooked up to make a point. When money is attached directly to the fish itself (e.g. perch) greed takes over.  The commercial fishermen who still remain are regulated by the DEC via their licenses and hopefully monitored as well. I wasn't addressing them either. The main concern here stemmed from issues surrounding the perch fishing on the Finger Lakes and the abuses that have been occurring as well as other environmental factors that have impacted the fish and fishing in general and fish that school can be more severely impacted by fishing abuses because they are more vulnerable because of it. I'd just like to ensure that future generations may enjoy the same things we have up to this point. As far as reducing the limit to 25 it would make it consistent with the limit on other panfish such as crappies in the Finger Lakes (25). I'm not a communist either

Edited March 9, 2016 by Sk8man

[perchjerk.jb]

Perch perch perch.... how about the glamour fish carp and bullheads. all up and down the st. Lawrence in the spring they have bullhead dinners at the fire stations and other fundraisers

like chicken barbecues in other places. I remember as a child my grandfather used to go to Montezuma and take carp down to Binghamton and sell him to the Jewish people for kifelda .I haven't noticed an uproar about that. If I hadn't had Chaumont bay for help a few years ago I would have been picking cans or on assistance.If you actually think hook and line fishing is a detriment to the population I sympathize for you. I think that it's ludicrous to get more laws passed over fish or game..Almost need a lawyer on retainer now to keep up with all the laws

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[perchjerk.jb]

Skate man did you get any license plates or take any pictures of these law breakers.

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[perchjerk.jb]

And sometimes it seems like people know more about other peoples business and they should take more time and minding their own business

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[perchjerk.jb]

Nothing bothers me more than educated ignorance and there's a lot of it going on as far as the sale of fish goes. It's going on for decades and it hasn't heard a damn thing on Lake Ontario

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[perchjerk.jb]

And please forgive my ranting

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[Sk8man]

Lake O is a very different matter than the Finger Lakes. 

[Frogger]

I know I'm not retired yet Sk8man lol..... And agree fully to your points, and professional response as well. I guess looking back at the early 90's when it was unlimited throughout the state and the numbers of perch were getting yank out of the fishery someone must of noticed issues were arising. Over harvesting can happen with a rod and reel not just with the use of a net. Just google it. To add with a charter captain, ask what fees they paid to the state, licenses etc, people on board paid licenses etc. That money then goes back to the kitty to support the fishery etc. Let me run down to the diner to tell the owner he owes money to the state for sale of perch from a pirate who caught and sold him 200lbs fillets from a days outing or better yet is this transaction all under the table???? No surprise right?

[perchjerk.jb]

200 lbs.of fillets in a day? Iwanto know where he was fishing. Lol

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[Kingfisher06]

  Oh my God... talk about being misguided...wow! I think some of the commentary above speaks for itself so I wont bother addressing it. By the way when I referred to selfish behavior I was referring to the folks who sell the perch not necessarily to you.

 

Misguided, (scoff). Why don't you address it? Address all of it as a matter of fact. I sell perch, you were addressing me. 

[Kingfisher06]

200 lbs.of fillets in a day? Iwanto know where he was fishing. Lol

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They must exaggerate, they are speaking from emotion. One guy goes out, has a decade record of 200 lbs and then each and every guy who sells perch catches 200 lbs a day.