Sale of FIsh

[BSmaster]

This is getting to be as polarizing as fracking.  Everytime I visualize my support of a movement, I can find a substantial negative to go with it.  Background:  I Eat perch - don't sell perch - don't care if people sell perch.

 

1.)If the kids are pushed to the forefront then it gives me the impression that it is another tree hugging liberal attempt at using propaganda to get their way {the PETA way}.  If there is a study done and the data is presented first and then conclusions are offered I would be inclined to support those findings.  A lot of what I see these days are conclusions without data. 

 

2.)I really don't have a preference to what is done.  I strongly believe in the economics of fishing.  You can slice it in many ways.  It costs money to fish.  people are not going fishing for perch to not catch perch.  Therefore the aforementioned fishing pressure should go down (economics)  If this results in lower fishing license sales - The state will look into possible reasons why and make changes.  I am curious how many of us posting on here are refusing to buy a fishing license because of the perch situation on Seneca?  I don't see it affecting the state monetarily.

 

3.) If the data is there changes can be made - the marine fishery changes constantly.  But this is NYS - they don't seem capable of decisive and quick decisions.  However, Wait and see approach is not always bad.  I don't see a crash and burn for the perch population.  I see cycles.

 

Trying to be direct without offending.  I apologize if you feel like you have been called a PETA troll and you are not one.

[Skidplate]

So happy they did not move into Sampson this year

[Sk8man]

Along the lines of data and environmental impact you might want to take a look at this presentation a buddy sent:

 

[Thun]

Wild turkey were abundant back in the day but when I grew up, they were extinct in my area. Thanks to the sportsmen, they're everywhere again. We're the reason these youngsters can enjoy the wildlife they encounter.

 

http://www.fws.gov/news/ShowNews.cfm?ref=service-distributes-$1.1-billion-to-state-wildlife-agencies-to-support-&_ID=35495

[muskiedreams]

I am not a perch fisherman. I can say that I love a good perch fry (or walleye). But I don't know anything about quantity or quality of perch fisheries in various waters. If through studies of a fishery over multiple years, it is determined that there is a serious and continuous depletion of the population or size or a serious problem of disease, then the DEC will consider possible actions including changes in regulations. But they will not act without reliable data.

 

If a concern is raised the first thing they will do is work to gather reliable data. If a group of citizens have a concern they need to first bring their concern to the DEC and fisheries management community so that a proper assessment can be made through collection of reliable data. You may even find out that the situation is already being monitored. The key is to start with the facts or get the facts and go from there. There can always be, and almost always is, multiple factors involved with changes in fish populations. Solutions also have to be practical.

 

There can be other influences that have nothing to do with the health of the fishery. Influences such as local interests, selfishness, commerce, tax revenue and pressure from other influential groups such as tournament sanctioning groups and tackle industry. There seems to be many who are concerned about bass but there is so much influence from various groups and so much revenue (and tax) generated from bass fishing related activities, they seem to be reluctant to make any regulation changes. There are many who feel that the early catch and release season is severely hampering spawning activities. I really don't know if they are taking a serious look at these concerns. There may be too many powerful political and commercial influences so that nothing will be done until there are dire consequences.

 

The DEC is trying to simplify the regulations and are trying to keep special regulations to a minimum so they might not even want to consider any new special regulations for perch in certain waters or regions.

 

If there is a problem with a particular body of water being over fished, you can always start a group of concerned fisherman to advocate for more conservative practices. That is what catch and release is all about. You could try to encourage fisherman to only catch what they need or what is legal if you want your children and grandchildren to have fish to catch. Regulations may help, but public conscience can go a long way too. Act for the better good of the fishery. Unfortunately there will always be those who are selfish and even with regulations in place there will never be enough officers to enforce them everywhere.

Edited March 9, 2016 by muskiedreams

[Kingfisher06]

Along the lines of data and environmental impact you might want to take a look at this presentation a buddy sent:

 

There you go, send the pawns, I mean children to picket the wineries to use less fertilizer and chemicals...oh but the wineries are so good for the economy, its such a state treasure, its got to be those dirty, greedy, scamming perch guys.   

[muskiedreams]

Along the lines of data and environmental impact you might want to take a look at this presentation a buddy sent:

 

Thanks for posting this. It is thought provoking. Just imagine the effect on the smaller lakes. With some it seems clearly visible. But I also wonder if this is something that can occour naturally, depending on the surrounding landscape. I have commonly heard that dairy farm runoff is a serious problem at some lakes.

[Kingfisher06]

Thanks for posting this. It is thought provoking. Just imagine the effect on the smaller lakes. With some it seems clearly visible. But I also wonder if this is something that can occour naturally, depending on the surrounding landscape. I have commonly heard that dairy farm runoff is a serious problem at some lakes.

Yes, eutrophication of lakes happens naturally. Generally, natural eutrophication is a slow process and cyclical. Cultural eutrophication happens rather quickly and is quelled by changing surrounding land use practices in the watershed. If those nasty perch guys would stop pooping over their transom, scumbags...

[BSmaster]

Les, Thanks for posting.  Not saying he is wrong - just some things that bothered me.

 

Turbidity?-  Scratching my head on that one.  What is the problem with zebra muscles then?  Everything is going in multiple directions.

 

Runoff- Was worse in years/decades prior.  And why an image of a dairy farm and not a winery? Don't know - just saying.  If this guy is spot on then maybe liquid propane storage isn't what the residents should be worried about.  Also, in smaller eutrophic lakes the problem is often human waste.  Is the DEC up to date on septic systems?

 

Nitrates?-  What is the testing method?  What drainage basins.  Farms have to have permits now so it can be tracked.  This is a better understanding of euthrophication.  https://cee.mit.edu/onbalance/2011/march

[BSmaster]

If anyone knows this professor and knows if he gives talks, I would be interested in attending one.  A lot seems to be missing for me.  I would like to see him in person so he can answer questions/defend his theory.

 

Thanks,

[muskiedreams]

Eutrophication is a very interesting and important topic and I am glad it was brought up because it has led me to further exploration of the problem. It is however, off topic for this string. I do however, think it deserves it's own discussion. I am now wondering if the herbicide treatments at Waneta Lake are just treating a symptom of eutrophication and at the same time exasperating the problem which may have the effect of accelerating the demise of the lake.

 

http://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/eutrophication-causes-consequences-and-controls-in-aquatic-102364466

[Sk8man]

muskiedreams - It is my understanding that eutrophication can and does happen to lakes it is viewed as an "end stage" process that happens over a long period of time not as rapidly as noted here. One of the puzzling things to me along the lines of Joe's question is turbidity is usually thought of as sediment in the water that is mixed in leading to problems with water clarity rather than the presence of bio limiting factors such as phosphates and nitrates etc. which gave rise to the rapid growth of weed beds in the 60's at the north end of Seneca. Seneca is not a stagnant body of water like some either because the Keuka Outlet flows into it and the outflow is through the Seneca canal at the north end of the lake with strong current action from both wind and when they open the locks up in Waterloo NY. so you'd think a lot would be cleansed  through the system. Again, this is a complex system with complex problems but run off from farms and wineries sure doesn't help things, and they have powerful lobbies.

Edited March 9, 2016 by Sk8man

[ifishy]

why would the turbidity be measured by lowering a disk into the water this leaves way to much open for interperatation.  think if his eyes were slowly worsening over the years as happens to us all the water could be the same and he would percieve an increase in turbidity.  heck imagine if he was developing cataracts.  the only way to take a true measure is to run the sample through a spectrometer and measure absorbtion.  the disk method is a rough and very basic example of the principle.  I dont have the years of experience on seneca that some have but in the 10 years i've been in the area I would say the water has gotten clearer but this is very subjective.  also as BS said a lot more was dumped into the lake pre clean water act than is now.  that the lake is changing sure but as has been stated i dont think you can point to any fewer than a dozen different causes and they are not all pushing in the same way.  As for the selling of perch well if the population is in decline than limiting any of the pressures on the population can potentially help. If a population is not in decline than it is maintaining balance.  The  pressure would not come from selling per say but from overharvest of populations in decline.  The theory is that selling encourages through monetary reward the practice of overharvest beyond what the regulations allow.  Better enforcement would be great but costly.  Better use of technology could make management at the buyer level much more feasable.  for example fish sales can all be done through an online database.  Id (drivers license) is required to sell that id number is tacked to each sale and available realtime anywhare in the world.  if that id number is tied to sales of qtys more than allowed to be harvested than you can mail the fine to the offender.  maybe the change should be to limit the number one can sell in any given period of time?  or maybe it really does have to be on a regional basis maybe a limited selling season to protect a spawn.  Maybe the fingers really cant support the harvest.  I dont really fish perch but I know if one population crashes it can effect the whole system so I think we all have an interest and hopefully the DEC can figure out the best option

[perchjerk.jb]

OMG

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[muskiedreams]

I am thinking about it in relation to Waneta Lake in particular. The lake is already eutrophic. There is a golf course and dairy farm overlooking the lake, from which there is probably a considerable amount of nutrient runoff. There is also no sewage system so there is probably a lot or nutrients leaching from septic systems. They have been treating the lake with herbicides for quite a number of years now. When weeds are killed off, the nutrients (phosphors and nitrates) from the weeds go to the bottom of the lake (so they stay in the lake) and the decay of the weeds depletes oxygen. Those nutrients help feed the growth of algae which in turn creates toxins as well as cause further depletion of oxygen. Fish need oxygen to survive. The lake becomes an algae factory. Also, in the last two years there has been substantial heavy summer rains which may have caused more nutrient runoff than usual from the golf course and the farm to help feed the algae factory. There is very little runoff control in the heavy rainstorms and there is heavy runoff all around straight into the lake.

 

So they probably believe they are improving the lake by using herbicide but I wonder if they are actually accelerating the eutrophication of the lake. One of the latest things I heard is that they want to put a bubbler system in the north end of the lake to help raise the oxygen levels. If they hadn't killed off most of the weeds in the lake, there wouldn't be as much of a problem with low oxygen. They would probably be better off working at reducing runoff of nutrients from surrounding land and making plans to install a sewer system and sewage treatment facility. They could probably get State and Federal funding toward these things.

[Sk8man]

Really good points Steve. Like Lamoka and Waneta Honeoye has about the same problems. A few years ago I went to launch my boat there and the algae, nutrients and some of the chemicals they treated the lake with pooled up near the launch and it looked just like green oil based paint in the water....I decided to forego launching. The weeds in mid to late summer grow to near the surface messing up boating and any thought of stuff like recreational skiing or swimming. Eutrophication is a real problem for everyone living there and leads to the bue/green algae bloom that can be toxic to animals and a bad skin irritant or worse to humans. In recent years some massive fish die offs (e.g. perch, bass, rockies and sunnys) in the Finger Lakes have occurred as well which haven't seemed to be well understood either. No simple solutions.

Edited March 10, 2016 by Sk8man

[FishingTheFL]

Problem with giving Id #s to track sells of fish is... not everyone is honest... someone will always be paying cash under the table.

The answer is... Protecting natural resources from pollution... Not only is there run off from farms, wineries, and homes.... break it down to a sub atomic level and you got particulates from two dumps bonding with hydrogen and oxygen atoms forming rain causing polluted run off... Every time you get a north wind and walk out of the Waterloo Wal-Mart, it smells like you shoved your head in a dumpster... Birth place of Memorial day smells like America's dumpster... Two small towns ran buy idiots that don't even live there greatly effect the natural resources ( the Finger Lakes) for money...

Just remember when you smell a fart.... little particles of crap.... just went up your nose... same thing with the smell from the dump (rotting trash)...

Wonder how many of these politicians passed basic chemistry....

[Sk8man]

"Too much information" on the fart analogy as my daughter might say

 

I think we got a bit off track from the main topic too and I take responsibility for that with bringing up the eutrophication issue but it is something to take into account. What I'm wondering is if it would be worthwhile here in the Finger Lakes to reduce the daily limit of perch to 25 in keeping with the limit on Crappies ( it is still a lot of meat to eat for personal use) with a similar 9 inch minimum size for Crappies on a trial basis for awhile similar to the one rainbow limit currently implemented on the western Finger Lakes. One of the other concerns here is that perch season is never closed unlike the gamefish seasons during spawning. Another thing is that for years I and other folks I know have been keeping perch from about ten to twelve inches and throwing back smaller ones or obvious real large egg laden females. The keeping of 6-8 inch perch is pointless by sport fishermen and it also is questionable keeping large gravid (egg laden) females because much of their anatomy is devoted to the eggs with much less actual fillet meat than males. There are currently "slot limits" on certain gamefish which is a similar concept. I know this doesn't deal with selling aspect, and probably will be unpopular with the "governmental conspiracy" folks but I'm thinking of things that ethical sport fishermen can do to try to preserve this fishery in the face of so many detrimental factors currently facing the perch population. I know there are folks out there that will say that the perch population is "fine" (and that I'm just not locating them as well as they can) and "where is the evidence" but in many cases waiting for the evidence to be prominently apparent to all signals a major collapse in either the ecosystem or the particular species itself and the "canary in the coal mine" information is long gone and now "irrelevant".

Edited March 10, 2016 by Sk8man

[Kingfisher06]

Unjustly applying the term conspiracy, or racist, ___ phobe to people to discredit fair concerns is a common tactic used by folks who base their agendas on nothing more than emotions.

 

Making a case that a 8" perch in the pail is pointless for food is disingenuous.

 

If you believe the perch fishery is in danger and have a gang of like minded friends, then make up some jewelry and propose to each other that you'll abstain from fishing them. Start a FB page to promote your abstinence. Ask the local university to initiate some masters/PHd studies to fill the gap of understanding. Ask the DEC to focus a few surveys on your areas of concern and get some data to cumulate, which can then be bounced off university literature. All this anecdotal, emotional appeal does not help your case, period.  

[Sk8man]

I guess you seem to have all the answers Kingfisher.....and you aren't even from this area so I guess you must be a bit psychic....good for you

[Kingfisher06]

I guess you seem to have all the answers Kingfisher.....and you aren't even from this area so I guess you must be a bit psychic....good for you

Just show me something definitive, that's all I ask. The premise of this post is a statewide ban on hook and line selling of fish.

[Skidplate]

The moon landing was a lie to sk8man

Lol.

[Silver Fox]

OMG

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Lol

[BSmaster]

Definitely off topic... 

 

Les,

Dr James Haynes (SUNY Brockport) explained why Erie cleaned up quickly and why Ontario will take 1000s of years.  I saw the talk 20+ years ago but I can not find the paper online.  Deeper lakes have a deep well cycle which doesn't allow them to be "flushed" or diluted in the same way shallower lakes do.  This is the summary of which I took from a talk I heard 20+ years ago.  Don't hammer me.

 

Seneca is deep so this internal welling effect could be happening in the same manner.  I still don't understand how it is eutrophic - that is why I don't get the video's theory.

 

BTW, I hate what they did to Lamoka.  I am hopefull the weed beds make it back.

[Sk8man]

Thanks Joe.. good point. I do remember something about that but had forgotten it.I agree that some of the video is somewhat "puzzling" but I also remember seeing a pic taken from space of the localized  blue-green algae blooms on the east side of Seneca a while back.