Sale of FIsh

[Kingfisher06]

Not just Kevin, anybody can chime in, would you support a teacher, who's hobby is organizing PETA demonstrations, rally her children to outlaw the Charter and Guide industry? Either side of a debate can be argued emotionally, and manipulatively especially by a teacher figure to students!!!!! What say you?

 

And I don't care about the wishy-washy side notes Kevin presents about duck ID, or hunter safety instructors, or whatever else outside his capacity as a NYS taxpayer funded HS teacher. As a biology teacher, its a science based discipline, with very little room at the highschool level for an agenda to slip through. What could have been questioned as an agenda in a biology classroom at the H.S., I'm sure I don't want to know, good grief.  

Edited March 15, 2016 by Kingfisher06

[steelie]

This has been a good read.. I see both sides as well and many valid points. The last 2 posts above mine from king were eye raising In many ways

[flyrod2]

 Figured we would explain how we came to this point. First this is mainly an 11^th grade class and a rural school that most everyone in class hunts and/or fishes. Project started last year when went to an aquaponics farm that raised vegetables and started to experiment with perch instead of tilapia. We got on topic because one of our students will be going to Cobleskill for fisheries and wants to create a business through aquaculture. We then had discussion about selling fish. Question was raised as to why someone would want to go through investment to raise fish to sell when a $20 license and virtual no regulations would be easier, knowing that the business would be taxed, regulated and inspected with a potential for not succeeding like all small business face. They felt it would be easier to take from a resource that they had no investment in.  Since NY is one of only a few states that allow selling(also illegal in Ontario and Quebec) we looked at other states. In those that made selling illegal by recreational license in past 30 years there was a 10 fold increase in aquaculture permits.  So as “capitalism†works why not open a farm that raises perch without toxins. This would generate more business for restaurants since now those under 16 and women of child bearing age could eat fish... As far as the fishery itself they delved into numerous discussions from all side. We studied the past 200 years on Ontario and found a lake in constant turmoil, brought on most by human activity. In every instance of a major crash people thought the fishery was inexhaustible, and all the efforts to fix it were reactive instead of proactive. They also saw through efforts by those who worked hard to restore the fishery, that positive contributions work. We also acquired information on a few stings setup in NY to catch poachers and perch from here ended up in NYC and as far away as California within 3 days. Hardly local. Could go on and on.  Bottom line, they felt that this was a worthwhile cause.  They have never assumed that they had all the answers. They are also getting lesson on how ideas become regulations or laws  I have to admit, there are a couple things we have “indoctrinated†them on, to use the term again. One is that regardless of whether it is a drivers license, hunting license or fishing license, those are privileges and not rights. Also the fact that as hunters and fishers they are taking(killing) from the resource that belongs to the collective whole and they should give back something in return so that future people have the same opportunities. Pic is brown trout we raise from eggs in classroom do numerous projects with and release in May. A part of giving back!

[Sk8man]

Kingfisher - You chastise Kevin for bringing up experiential items that he feels relevant yet you continue to dream up these analogies that have absolutely nothing to do with the issue. You mention that you haven't sold perch in over ten years and yet pretend to be an expert on the current status of things as well as knowledgeable about sanitary practices and inspections of restaurants. You allude to being a high level policy maker biologist which you think adds to your credibility and you deride the motives and opinions of others who disagree with your position and then question the ethics of others without actually knowing anything about them or their actual situations and then pretend that others are responding emotionally yet you fail to see how the things you are saying appear to others and that much of it is viewed to be irrational. It is very obvious you have an axe to grind with  the government, the educational system and anyone else that doesn't  align themselves with your way of thinking. I also share some of your mistrust for big government intrusions, the so-called SAFE Act, Emperor Cuomo etc. but those concerns don't transfer to students and teachers becoming involved in current issues relevant to their future. There should always be room for differing opinions and discussion without questioning the motives, actions or beliefs of others it is how we learn.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Sk8man

[flyrod2]

By the way this is an elective science class with students who have brains of their own. Also, and this comes straight from them; they have looked at many forums and ideas, but one thing they have noticed on their own is fact that many adults have tough time debating ideas without bashing the messanger which is why we have had little interest in responding to much of this. We criticize kids for not getting involved, then criticze when they do. Thanks to those on both sides for positive responses and healthy debate.

[TileMan Dan]

Keep doing what your doing Flyrod. You are to be commended..Just always present both sides unbiasedly and teach to make decisions based on facts and with out emotions involved. Its probably the biggest reason why government has become so disfunctional on all levels.

[Chas0218]

One is that regardless of whether it is a drivers license, hunting license or fishing license, those are privileges and not rights. Also the fact that as hunters and fishers they are taking(killing) from the resource that belongs to the collective whole and they should give back something in return so that future people have the same opportunities. Pic is brown trout we raise from eggs in classroom do numerous projects with and release in May. A part of giving back!100_1551.JPG

This is the part I don't get you contradict yourself in the last few sentences. You refer to hunting and fishing as a privilege, which it is not I own land, and a small pond and should not have to pay for a license to use my land as I please. I pay taxes on the land it is mine no one should be able to dictate what I do. Now the 2nd part you say a resource that belongs to everyone so in fact if it belongs to everyone why should we need to pay for a license to use it? Being a public resource means it is open to everyone why pay for something that should be available to everyone? What about that guy that can't afford the fishing license but wants to take his kid fishing technically he can't because he hasn't paid his way into a "public resource". 

 

I understand "some" money from licenses goes back into the resources (how much no one will ever really know) and that is why I bought my lifetime license to maybe help keep programs funded and help our resources flourish.

 

But in your case you seem to only be presenting one side.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Chas0218

[TileMan Dan]

Hunting,Fishing,driving, Etc are both a privilege and a right. Yes you can own land and a pond, but from state respect you don't own the game on or in it.

[Kevin J Legg]

Kingfisher,

From my experience, a teacher and the course curriculum are reviewed and overseen by a department head, administrators, the board of education and ultimately the State Education Department. It also seems to me that this class has been a great learning experience for those students involved.

Kingfisher, While I respect your right to an opinion I strongly object that you say I "lack any type of deep ethical responsibility" I'm also unclear on how the safe gun act directly relates to sale of fish issue. I also take offense on your personal attack on my integrity when you know nothing about me.

I commend fly rod for allowing students to investigate a difficult issue, gather information, and pursue actions they feel are appropriate. Seems to me to be a very teachable moment!

As stated before, I have mixed feelings on this topic. Having lived in Jefferson County for 40 years and communicating with a former student that is one of the largest perch buyers in the area gives me an interesting historical and personal perspective. I feel the need to monitor this renewable resource is critical to maintaining long term sustainable harvest levels. If the resource can withstand the commercial harvest let the practice continue, if not shut it down.

[Kingfisher06]

 Figured we would explain how we came to this point. First this is mainly an 11^th grade class and a rural school that most everyone in class hunts and/or fishes. Project started last year when went to an aquaponics farm that raised vegetables and started to experiment with perch instead of tilapia. We got on topic because one of our students will be going to Cobleskill for fisheries and wants to create a business through aquaculture. We then had discussion about selling fish. Question was raised as to why someone would want to go through investment to raise fish to sell when a $20 license and virtual no regulations would be easier, knowing that the business would be taxed, regulated and inspected with a potential for not succeeding like all small business face. They felt it would be easier to take from a resource that they had no investment in.  Since NY is one of only a few states that allow selling(also illegal in Ontario and Quebec) we looked at other states. In those that made selling illegal by recreational license in past 30 years there was a 10 fold increase in aquaculture permits.  So as “capitalism†works why not open a farm that raises perch without toxins. This would generate more business for restaurants since now those under 16 and women of child bearing age could eat fish... As far as the fishery itself they delved into numerous discussions from all side. We studied the past 200 years on Ontario and found a lake in constant turmoil, brought on most by human activity. In every instance of a major crash people thought the fishery was inexhaustible, and all the efforts to fix it were reactive instead of proactive. They also saw through efforts by those who worked hard to restore the fishery, that positive contributions work. We also acquired information on a few stings setup in NY to catch poachers and perch from here ended up in NYC and as far away as California within 3 days. Hardly local. Could go on and on.  Bottom line, they felt that this was a worthwhile cause.  They have never assumed that they had all the answers. They are also getting lesson on how ideas become regulations or laws  I have to admit, there are a couple things we have “indoctrinated†them on, to use the term again. One is that regardless of whether it is a drivers license, hunting license or fishing license, those are privileges and not rights. Also the fact that as hunters and fishers they are taking(killing) from the resource that belongs to the collective whole and they should give back something in return so that future people have the same opportunities. Pic is brown trout we raise from eggs in classroom do numerous projects with and release in May. A part of giving back!100_1551.JPG

 

Most all the kids hunt or fish, that’s great. Have most or all of them sold a few pails of fish prior to your class? Have they experienced both sides on their own outside of school, with their family? I guess not.

 

Virtually no regulations; sounds like heaven to my ears, but to most on here familiar with the process, it’s quite evident there are and they are sufficient. Do you really believe the sellers don’t feel an investment in the resources? That’s a misconception. Like Gambler mentioned earlier in the thread, the gossip on the internet has probably influenced fishing pressure more than any other avenue in the last decade. Maybe your kids should seek to ban Lakeontariounited, with no true causal proof. I know I never gossiped about where I was making a buck, and the fellas I knew on the bay sure as hell were not advertising their whereabouts or posting reports that would lead to further competition/pressure.

 

So Capitalism, in your mind, therefor what you are teaching the kids is: Utilizing the State to outlaw competition in the market place. Really? That is so wrong and dangerous and exactly what has led to the unchecked greed and unfairness we see in today’s economy. You are a dangerous man. Why not let restaurants decide if they want farm-raised or local caught and let the buying power of the customers decide? I know why, but wait a second.

 

Is it illegal for perch to end up somewhere other than a local restaurant, really? I’d think selling locally first, saving on shipment costs would be beneficial, but then shipping when the market was saturated would be quite feasible to a business model.

 

I think it is a great understanding to have; how govt works. But you sir, you have a dangerous mind. In the “Seneca Perch†thread on page seven you say: The one thing that is difficult to control is invasives, so when we see invasives we need to make adjustments to those things we have control over…eliminate the selling and request more enforcement to put the greedy ones on notice are some of the things that can be controlled.†You are incapable of doing the scientific work and rigor to find the causal agent to find a solution so you go after a perceived boogeyman. Why is it hard to regulate the introduction of invasives throught the Seaway? Because big business has big bucks, big lobbies and the State has open pockets. It called Crony Capitalism, the style you teach! I propose the causal agent is the unchecked greed that pays off big govt to look the other way. How does govt get so big? Because of indoctrinators like you. Teaching kids to turn to the govt to intervene and eliminate healthy competition. Teaching kids to control folks, without causal proof of doing any harm, to pretend to do good for the “collective†through the long arm of the state through increased enforcement and degradation of opportunity. You are a protected teacher, probably tenured and immune to competition, you have a vested interest in non-competition through state means. Doesn’t mean you have to teach it too.    

Edited March 15, 2016 by Kingfisher06

[Kingfisher06]

Kingfisher,

From my experience, a teacher and the course curriculum are reviewed and overseen by a department head, administrators, the board of education and ultimately the State Education Department. It also seems to me that this class has been a great learning experience for those students involved.

Kingfisher, While I respect your right to an opinion I strongly object that you say I "lack any type of deep ethical responsibility" I'm also unclear on how the safe gun act directly relates to sale of fish issue. I also take offense on your personal attack on my integrity when you know nothing about me.

I commend fly rod for allowing students to investigate a difficult issue, gather information, and pursue actions they feel are appropriate. Seems to me to be a very teachable moment!

As stated before, I have mixed feelings on this topic. Having lived in Jefferson County for 40 years and communicating with a former student that is one of the largest perch buyers in the area gives me an interesting historical and personal perspective. I feel the need to monitor this renewable resource is critical to maintaining long term sustainable harvest levels. If the resource can withstand the commercial harvest let the practice continue, if not shut it down.

Just answer the question instead of taking it personally, do you support those other examples I presented or not?

 

Edit: By the way I did not claim you lacked deep ethical responsibility, unless you answered hypocritically. Cart before horse.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Kingfisher06

[muskiedreams]

This is getting ridiculous. Regulations and other management practices are needed to control the balance of life in the waters and on land. It can't be a free for all. Simple as that. If it were, we would probably have people killing each other over a fish. Without regulations, wild fish and wildlife would have been depleted long ago. And don't start pointing the finger at immigration.

Edited March 15, 2016 by muskiedreams

[hermit]

Kingfisher I have you say you are out of line insulting everyone who is respectfully trying to disagree with you.  Several times over the course of this thread I've had constructive, informative comments to make but didn't because of your attitude.

 

Thumping everyone over the head who disagrees with you is not going to change anyone's mind or make them listen to you, quite the opposite in fact.  

 

Edit:  and this is coming from someone who agrees with many of your points regarding the science behind it all.  That may surprise some but I'm a big believer in science and data.  I don't know enough to have an opinion on whether the sale should be banned or not, but I think it should be examined, as this class is attempting to do.

Edited March 15, 2016 by hermit

[Kingfisher06]

This is getting ridiculous. Regulations and other management practices are needed to control the balance of life in the waters and on land. It can't be a free for all. Simple as that. If it were, we would probably have people killing each other over a fish. Without regulations, wild fish and wildlife would have been depleted long ago. And don't start pointing the finger at immigration.

You really don't understand...who is asking for the abolishment of game laws?

[BSmaster]

I can not see a scenario where encouraging our youth to do a comprehensive study, investigation, or inquiry into any subject matter has a negative consequence - whether I agree with it or not.  It is called learning.  If you a worried they won't come to the conclusion that you want them to well then maybe there is something wrong with your position.  Nobody says you have to accept it.  But those kids will most likely out live you and your ideas.  If you are worried that those kids will be used as pawns in a political movement (because it happens all of the time) so be it.  I would rather have them formulate their own opinions than have a curmudgeon tell them the way it is suppose to be.  Even if that curmudgeon is me.

 

Teachers are opinionated - comes with the job.  If you are a teacher and you don't think so.  Well, you are.  Don't apologize for it either.

 

As far as the sale of perch goes - I am still undecided and need something that falls into my wheelhouse of scientific data.  Conclusions and opinions don't do it for me.

[Kingfisher06]

Kingfisher I have you say you are out of line insulting everyone who is respectfully trying to disagree with you.  Several times over the course of this thread I've had constructive, informative comments to make but didn't because of your attitude.

 

Thumping everyone over the head who disagrees with you is not going to change anyone's mind or make them listen to you, quite the opposite in fact.  

 

Edit:  and this is coming from someone who agrees with many of your points regarding the science behind it all.  That may surprise some but I'm a big believer in science and data.

I think I called s8man a bullcrap artist once, sorry sk8man. Otherwise claiming someone is dangerous, unethical is fair. If there are other name calling I apologize. You don't understand how insulted I am by the methods and means of this proposition, its frustrating.

[Kevin J Legg]

I have no issue in a classroom exploring ANY controversial issue. They need to learn how to gather unbiased information, look at all sides of an issue and make educated choices. Isn't critical thinking the cornerstone of education? I also believe that working with government agencies and pursuing avenues to make appropriate changes is also a significant part of the education process. Kingfisher, you are short changing the minds of these students and are threatened that the teacher is driving the curriculum which in my opinion is not the case. Critical thinking, the scientific method, and data gathering and interpretation are important skills which need tone taught.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Kevin J Legg

[Kevin J Legg]

I have no issue in a classroom exploring ANY controversial issue. They need to learn how to gather unbiased information, look at all sides of an issue and make educated choices. Isn't critical thinking the cornerstone of education? I also believe that working with government agencies and pursuing avenues to make appropriate changes is also a significant part of the education process. Kingfisher, you are short changing the minds of these students and are threatened that the teacher is driving the curriculum which in my opinion is not the case. Critical thinking, the scientific method, and data gathering and interpretation are all important skills which need to be taught.

Edited March 15, 2016 by Kevin J Legg

[Kingfisher06]

I have no issue in a classroom exploring ANY controversial issue. They need to learn how to gather unbiased information, look at all sides of an issue and make educated choices. Isn't critical thinking the cornerstone of education? I also believe that working with government agencies and pursuing avenues to make appropriate changes is also a significant part of the education process. Kingfisher, you are short changing the minds of these students and are threatened that the teacher is driving the curriculum which in my opinion is not the case. Critical thinking, the scientific method, and data gathering and interpretation are all important skills which need to be taught.

Oh my, of course controversial issues ought to be on the table. I obviously enjoy critical thinking and loved debates in high school. I believe a mock demonstration is more than applicable. To sidetrack answering the question I posed to you in two examples, you now claim the teacher is no longer in control of his curriculum; the students are, but a few posts ago claim there is a long chain of command on what a teacher utilizes as curriculum. So is what you're saying as a retired teacher is: dodge dodge dodge accountability at all costs? Is this the modus operandi for teachers? Seems so. 

[GAMBLER]

Kingfisher06,

 

Stick to the topic and stop jumping on people that disagree with you.  People are entitled to their opinions.  Allowing commercial fishing should be done on certain waters only and should be better regulated to keep the fishery going.  The East end perch fishery seems healthy but the Central / West end fishery is not what it was 10 years ago.  The finger lakes are big lakes but too much pressure may destroy a great fishery.  We need to preserve what we have. 

[Kingfisher06]

Kingfisher06,

 

Stick to the topic and stop jumping on people that disagree with you.  People are entitled to their opinions.  Allowing commercial fishing should be done on certain waters only and should be better regulated to keep the fishery going.  The East end perch fishery seems healthy but the Central / West end fishery is not what it was 10 years ago.  The finger lakes are big lakes but too much pressure may destroy a great fishery.  We need to preserve what we have. 

The topic is a statewide ban being lobbied by school children by way of a teacher's agenda. My style of speech offends you? I can't ask for people to go beyond emotional and hypocritical arguments? There is a collective, feel good mob mentality versus my individual aggressive speech. One begets the other.

[spoonfed-1]

The topic is a statewide ban being lobbied by school children by way of a teacher's agenda. My style of speech offends you? I can't ask for people to go beyond emotional and hypocritical arguments? There is a collective, feel good mob mentality versus my individual aggressive speech. One begets the other.

 

You are doing just fine in this discussion.

Keep up the good work.

[Chas0218]

The topic is a statewide ban being lobbied by school children by way of a teacher's agenda. My style of speech offends you? I can't ask for people to go beyond emotional and hypocritical arguments? There is a collective, feel good mob mentality versus my individual aggressive speech. One begets the other.

I agree and from what I can tell from the original post this pulls charters into this. Depending on how they word the law it could effect many people's livelihood.

[muskiedreams]

Kingfisher06, Are you sure you should be involved in this conversation and bringing so much attention to selling of perch as an enterprise? It could drive up the price and encourage more export to NYC and beyond. Maybe even Japan or China. The buyers will be waiting at the docks or in the parking lots. Don't you think that could have an adverse effect on the fishery?

[Kingfisher06]

Kingfisher06, Are you sure you should be involved in this conversation and bringing so much attention to selling of perch as an enterprise? It could drive up the price and encourage more export to NYC and beyond. Maybe even Japan or China. The buyers will be waiting at the docks or in the parking lots. Don't you think that could have an adverse effect on the fishery?

Yes, I've already received four paypal payments from Seneca Lake perch guys for lobbying on their behalf. This is going to affect my tax return next year. Hey, Seneca Lake perch pullers, no more checks over $600! My perchdreams are coming true!