Meeting at hatchery

[GAMBLER]

My only issue with that graph is it is only one year of decline. Last year, unstable weather pushed fish all over the place (just like the salmon). After early July, lakers were not in there normal areas. If we see a decline for two years in a row, then I will be a believer that the laker population is in decline.

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[Gill-T]

I don't put much credence in a few gill nets. Put your boat in at Olcott early this year Jerry. The numbers off Niagara county are borderline rediculous. Out of balance. Weave your magic and have them set gill nets in March and April. I think the Feds would be shocked......shocked.

[RUNNIN REBEL]

Brian,

Correct 1 year of decline is not convincing. As far as Lakers not in their normal areas, Vast Majority Lakers (few different stock strains are the exception) are almost always sooner or later on/near  bottom concentrated in SMALLER AREAS near ENTIRE Lake Ontario shoreline. They are not big movers, they actually "slide" (Scientists-biologist & professors term) along shoreline, which incidentally is the reason gill net data is effective. 35 years of gill net data show in hind sight the years of heavy alewife/die off  years with  almost a decade of record lake trout population in Lake Ontario. The meetings I attend Ottawa, Canada in 2016 and  Duluth, Minnesota 2017( All Great Lakes graphs/charts and representatives included) try to "hypothesis" (again their term) on next year trend or direction ? The loose prediction is downward  again in 2016/2017.    BUT their  saying is   "Mother Nature always bats last".   As you pointed out, Weather conditions play a huge part in this. I am with you on this one, lets see 2-3 years down trend to below average numbers.        AGAIN, I push for only looking at last 10 years data, as the 1980's-1990's Lake Ontario set up is not coming back.

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Edited August 13, 2016 by RUNNIN REBEL

[Sk8man]

Basically you need at least 3 data point to make any inference about a "trend" anyway.

[RUNNIN REBEL]

Les,

When they TRY to manage this lake, They start at a reference data point then look to direction. By the time a trend is established it is usualy to late in the stocking/what little corrections can be made time frame. Data for most part is collected/analyzed in spring-summer AFTER that current year stocking are put into the lake, This creates a tremendous lag time of a 4 year average "behind the 8 ball". Not to mention the previous 3 years of stocked fish you have little control over. That's why I say      "next trend  OR  direction"    "hypothesis"    "loose prediction"  and  "hindsight"  I have been corrected many times by these Bi-national panels at presentations on Studies protocol........

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Edited August 13, 2016 by RUNNIN REBEL

[Sk8man]

This might be a good example of a difference between statistical modeling and real life situations   I understand the logic behind what you are saying Jerry.

[RUNNIN REBEL]

Thanks Les,

 

PLEASE, Keep up your questions-experiences and what ever your line of expertise is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am just the middle man relaying information for everyone on LOU

 

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

[on the lam]

I am not here to pass judgment on any of the comments here, or the DEC position on the state of the lake. But I can say this is one of the most healthy, and wall mount worthy Kings you will ever see. It's not about the weight, it's it's overall healthy look. I hope this all works out.

[RUNNIN REBEL]

ABSOLUTLY Pete  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That is my idea of a "Trophy King fishery"  Having Abundant kings that size over the chance to catch a  #40+ king.

This year the fishing looks great .  it is the 2017-2018 area of possible concern. Like I mentioned the lag time from data to REALITY is long.

I wish I would get more information on here from the Oswego area  anglers besides the hard core charter buddies I get text/pictures from. Example is  Tom Allen's online experience's with catching mainly LARGE or small alewife and his countless hours on water (winter/summer) is the type of info needed that start questions and study/debate. I also have an outdoor stand alone freezer at my house collecting salmon heads/nose tags from clipped adipose kings. I know you guy's east have the same set up in Oswego and hopefully participate in.

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Edited August 13, 2016 by RUNNIN REBEL

[GAMBLER]

From hours on top of hours of fishing lakers, I can tell you when the thermalcline is unstable, lake trout slide but also move offshore and suspend down deep. After extreme upwellings (like the one we had last week) lakers disappear until stable weather returns. Last year after early July, the lakers were not in their usual haunts. They were pushed offshore by unstable thermalclines. If nets were out during this time, they results would be inaccurate. I am encouraged by the stuff I am hearing about the meeting the other night but I'm still optimistic because of the numbers of lakers I see on a daily basis makes me a little nervous about the future of the Alewife population.

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Edited August 13, 2016 by GAMBLER

[RUNNIN REBEL]

This is why I invited you and as many people I could to that meeting, so you guy,s could inform the decision makers one on one of your vast time and experiences lake trout fishing Hamlin pt. to Braddock  pt  generally 220' ft of water and in.(BEST consistent lake trout waters in the entire lake) 

 Then that is added to the Oswego area experiences (60 degree +++++water temps still down over 150' depths usually with predominant west push winds this time of year)

And Henderson area experiences  (40++year  Lake Ontario Veteran up there) were LOCATION structure/precise "Trench/Wall/cut area) fishing Predominates.

Then To Canadian waters where you can count on 2 hands the lake trout caught west of Toronto Islands (BEST structure on Lake Ontario) in the past decades !!!!!!!!!

Finally to Niagara river flow areas (especially springtime) That Gill-T mentioned Is by far the best time of year/ to location/ to high concentration ratio in the Entire Lake PERIOD.............Gill-T I fish that area currently for many years in Canadian tournaments w/Team Yankee troller from Port Dalhousie/Canada to Wilson NY   EARLY SPRING TIME before Olcott/Wilson area or any Canadian marinas are publically open up for the year. There are EVEN MORE Lake trout in that area evenly distributed in top water to 300' down water column than you see when you get out off Olcott.

 

TAKE AWAY

ALL these unique areas are combined  to come up with data for LAKEWIDE MANAGEMENT  *( USA & CANADA)   

as stated at meeting,  Lake Ontario has pretty much 2 regional factions on top of this 24/7   12 months,  the NYS DEC  & Canadian OMNR & forestry. Unlike the other Great Lakes that have many states and Canada involved with data collection.

 

If you for example put that much time fishing Offshore 350' of water plus   or    fished lake trout in entire Canadian north shoreline waters (both these areas would encompass %80 or more of total Lake Ontario fishing square area)  not only would you be out of business you would need a 4th & 5th job to cover all those generally less productive areas.

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Edited August 13, 2016 by RUNNIN REBEL

[Gill-T]

Jerry, we don't know anything about the North shore Lake Trout fishery because NOBODY fishes for them over there! I am sure they are present as there is no doubt gobies, however, if lakers are truly not present in catchable numbers on the North shore, it probably is proof positive how reliant they are on alewives as there is much more bait on our side of the pond.

Edited August 13, 2016 by Gill-T

[jimski2]

Spring time Lake Erie ice conditions are the main determination for fishing the Port Dalhousie, Port Weller and Niagara Bar areas. No ice turns on the fishing early when the metabolism rates increase. Lots of ice delays this early start. The rest of the lake turns on when the water temperature reaches mid forties. This indicates that there salmon and trout distribution all over the lake, they just need the right water condition to start their growth rates. The Lake Erie effluent flow into Lake Ontario contains a lot of nutrients but we must not count out the effect of six million Canadians populating the Toronto Metropolitan area that effects water temperature and nutrients in Lake Ontario.

[Tim Bromund]

I hear ya, but again, DEC findings aside, logic would tell me that higher catch rates and decreasing salmon size are not indicative of higher bait populations. We may see higher concentrations of bait in the more productive areas of the lake but overall abundance is most likely down.

another point to consider is that the previous two seasons where we had long hard winters and unstable weather during the fishing season that kept the fish scattered and hard to find, much less catch, simply means that a lot fewer fish were caught/harvested the last two years, which the creel census data confirms.  Perhaps the catch rates are up because there are just more fish available that would have been taken out had the last two years not been so severe.  I haven't see any pics of fish that appear to be even remotely malnourished.

[Sweet Caroline]

Hi Tim,

 

I'm looking at catch rates over the past 25 years or so. They have been highest on average for salmon in the past 10 years.

[Tim Bromund]

Hi Tim,

 

I'm looking at catch rates over the past 25 years or so. They have been highest on average for salmon in the past 10 years.

A lot of that is because we're much better fishermen than we were back then.  This used to primarily be an only 2nd half of August and September fishery years ago, now it starts in April.  However, I was really only commenting on the catch rates this season.

[Silver Fox]

Bingo! The internet (lou) has taken much of the guess work out of finding the fish. Greater than 10 years ago their was a lot of driving around and searching. We are all spoiled nowadays.

Lake Ontario salmon fishing charters

[Rich s]

Bingo! The internet (lou) has taken much of the guess work out of finding the fish. Greater than 10 years ago their was a lot of driving around and searching. We are all spoiled nowadays.

Lake Ontario salmon fishing charters

Not me , I'm still driving around and searching . Lol . I can say , I don't chase reports and don't like conga lines so guess there is still a lot of exploring to do out there .

I will say this site has helped me tremendously in gear , repair , safety and knowledge about the Great Lake as a fishery .

With that I want to again, thank everyone for the response of this thread topic .

I only hope the fishery will remain and thrive for my kids and grandkids .

Rich

[jerktroller]

Why do we need to protect certain areas of the salmon river for spawning fish when there is a huge amount of natural reproduction happening under the current regulations. These things are affected more by flow, temperature, etc. not anglers

[Yankee Troller]

Jerry, we don't know anything about the North shore Lake Trout fishery because NOBODY fishes for them over there! I am sure they are present as there is no doubt gobies, however, if lakers are truly not present in catchable numbers on the North shore, it probably is proof positive how reliant they are on alewives as there is much more bait on our side of the pond.

 

I really hate to agree with Jerry, becasue I usually don't, but I've fished over there 2 times a year for the past 6 years and never caught a Lake Trout. Most of the fishing that goes on over there is in 150' or less, and since were all over there fishing a Salmon event its flies and meat programs. We're also fishing a larger piece of structure than the Niagara Bar, and the bait is usually pretty incredible on the North shore.

 

I crossed Lady O twice this year from Olcott to Bluffers and never marked bait the whole way. I also didn't mark a single pod of bait in 3 days of fishing over there this year. If you asked me in May/June if we had a bait problem I would have said you're nuts. July was shocking as we didn't mark much at all. Maybe 1 pod per trip. August (after the blow) it seems to be spread out from inshore to offshore. A lot? No, but you don't have a problem marking pods.

[jimski2]

Do gooders have a problem of passing regulations that favor their benefit. New York has more laws, rules and regulations that when piled up they would hit the

Moon.

[work2fish]

I'm on the north shore (whitby)and I've caught 1 laker in 6 years fishing. I also agree on the bait observation. I haven't seen much at all since July. It's definitely a bit concerning. prior to that it was stacked up all inshore and in tight.

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[Sk8man]

Do gooders have a problem of passing regulations that favor their benefit. New York has more laws, rules and regulations that when piled up they would hit the

Moon.

I read something just yesterday indicating that a new study has indicated that New York State is the most restrictive state in terms of economic and personal freedom....I guess we already knew that didn't we? Here is a look at some of the others as well http://www.freedominthe50states.org/

Edited August 18, 2016 by Sk8man

[Gill-T]

I'm on the north shore (whitby)and I've caught 1 laker in 6 years fishing. I also agree on the bait observation. I haven't seen much at all since July. It's definitely a bit concerning. prior to that it was stacked up all inshore and in tight.

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Work2fish, do you or anyone you know target Lake Trout ie. Put out cowbells or Dodgers/flies?

[RUNNIN REBEL]

Gill-T

Targeting Lake Trout in Canada (From Jordan to Bay of Quinte-- summertime) would be like targeting steelhead summertime from Henderson Harbor to Oswego Dailey.....You really can count the number of Lake trout caught in the past years by Canadian anglers and US tournament fisherman. The bait NEAR SHORE there was good early on. One problem in Canada is we count Commorants by the 1/4 MILE lines they fly in to the feeding grounds everyday coming off their colony roosts on Toronto Islands............AND add them up.........Another subject for another day.........................

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL