Meeting at hatchery

[Silver Fox]

I have a charter 3-8 this afternoon in front of your kids swing set today. If you guys could meet at Tommy's 8-815ish I'll be back.

Lake Ontario salmon fishing charters

[Sweet Caroline]

I've heard that, but at the hatchery did they used to take eggs from only the largest fish or 4 yr olds and now they take eggs from all the fish, maybe? Not disagreeing that being selective in the egg take could help but I’m highly speculative that that is the main culprit. Avg size decline, higher catch rates, and what the DEC is finding in their trawls is enough evidence for me that there is a bait issue. If stocking rates are lowered what is the worst that could happen? Maybe we have a couple years of lower catches. Certainly better than crashing the fishery to the point of no return like Huron and possibly Michigan. I have two young boys that I would like to have this same great salmon fishery when they are my age.

Edited August 11, 2016 by A-Lure-A

[GAMBLER]

The stats from the hatchery a season or two ago stated 2 year olds were the highest percentage returning to the hatchery followed by the three year olds then the 4's.  The 4 year olds that returned were only a couple % of the returns.  I will look it up. 

[JakeyBaby]

Anyone attend the meeting last night? What was said as far as what they are actually proposing? Any answers or decisions made?

[Sweet Caroline]

Don’t want to get into a “point/ counter-point†discussion here but fish maturing early is yet another indication that the environment could be stressed i.e less bait. There is a belief that salmon are maturing early because they are healthy, but there are many case studies out there that would disagree.  It has been studied in other natural populations that early maturity could be a result of a population being stressed (i.e less bait, more competition, change in environment, etc, etc). To insure that a population can be sustained, many individuals in that population will start reproducing early. Over time, if the conditions persist, natural selection can change the overall average age of the breeding population. Good, lively discussion and all good points. I’m really not trying to be a naysayer in all this, but I think the DEC is making the right call. Again, not much downside if they are incorrect, but the potential for massive downside if they do nothing.

[Tall Tails]

Anyone attend the meeting last night? What was said as far as what they are actually proposing? Any answers or decisions made?

 

Explanation as to why a cut maybe coming.  It is a very good power point presentation.  There will be more public meetings after they have determined a course of action.

[GAMBLER]

If the data is true, I'm all for cuts too.  My only issue is the growing lake trout population.  Lakers out number kings by numbers for sure.  There are 4 year classes of salmon max.  Lakers, there could be WAY more.  They say cutting laker stocks will not do anything for four years but the laker biomass we have will put a hurting on the population.  We need to raise the creel limit and fish them. The cuts also need to be put on the lakers. 

[chinook35]

When I mention average size decline it is in reference to a slow and steady decline that we have seen over the last 10-15-20 years. Reviewing the top fish in the leader boards of the LOC and Great Ontario Salmon Hunt paints a pretty clear picture. I’m certainly not complaining about the size of the 25-30lb fish that we are still getting with regularity now, just pointing out that the 35-40lb fish are rare nowadays compared to 10-15-20 years ago. Generally this is an indication of a decline in prey abundance and the higher catch rates only reinforce that assumption.

i agree and also believe the gene pool has been compromised in the kings in Lake O the original fish from the west coast seemed to spawn at 4 years whereas the fish we are catching now tend to spawn at 3 years a year difference makes a big difference in size I have been chasing kings since the late seventies. I've seen boom and bust. But what I am hearing and reading is very troublesome to me. I think I am glad my fishing days are winding down. This fishery is going downhill

[Trout-N-About]

Anyone attend the meeting last night? What was said as far as what they are actually proposing? Any answers or decisions made?

Meeting is tonight at 6pm at the Irondequoit  Fish & Game Club,  658 Bay Front S, Rochester, NY 14609

[Sweet Caroline]

Little off topic but still interesting. A while back the Power Mill Hatchery received a handful of kings for show at the hatchery. Those fish lived to be five-six+ years old. Also interesting is steelhead and browns kept there for show could grow to be 12-14lbs, but the Kings never made it past 5 or 6 lbs.

[Gill-T]

i agree and also believe the gene pool has been compromised in the kings in Lake O the original fish from the west coast seemed to spawn at 4 years whereas the fish we are catching now tend to spawn at 3 years a year difference makes a big difference in size I have been chasing kings since the late seventies. I've seen boom and bust. But what I am hearing and reading is very troublesome to me. I think I am glad my fishing days are winding down. This fishery is going downhill

Not so gloomy as you think. The food web is intact and will be for foreseeable future. If you look at catch rates charted by the DEC, despite all the changes in stocking figures and invasive species arrival, the catch rates over the decade were higher than the eighties. In the end it IS about the catching....right? 😉

Since 1996 the adult alewife numbers have varied very little.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Gill-T

[Yankee Troller]

If Michigan can do it. So can we! 

 

Lake Michigan sets a president by reducing lake trout stockings, raising lake trout limits and ending closed seasons on them..

 

MSSFA continues to work with the DNR in its efforts to manage the sport fishery utilizing science based tools to insure the sustainability of our Chinook fishery. MSSFA had discussions with the DNR last week and again twice this week about a new proposal to achieve the equivalent forge savings in Lake Michigan by reducing the lake trout plant from 3.19 million in 2017 to 2.54 million ; a 21% reduction in lake trout. The new proposal opens the door to increasing the Chinook plant in 2017 from 690,000 up to 900,000; a 50% reduction rather tham the originally proposed 62% reduction. There was concensus for this new proposal at the Lake Michigan Committee meeting on Tuesday.

In addition, states that now have a two lake trout bag limit per day will move to allow 3 lake trout per day and Michigan will extend the season for catching Lake Trout to all year long outside the tribal boundry waters. Indiana will not suspend Chinook stocking as previously reported but will stock 60,000 Chinook in 2017.

 

I'd be for LT stocking cuts, increased LT limits, and the season lifted. 

 

2015:

1.7mil Chinook Stocked

975,000 LT Stocked

 

LT live longer and gouge on Alewife populations.

 

To refute Jerry's comment I was all for allowing 5 LT at the Oak Open when we started it 3 years ago. A few people were not happy with killing that many LT. Same for the KOTO series. A few people were not happy about killing all those LT as well as having to fish for them just to get a few big fish to weigh.

[RUNNIN REBEL]

Rick.

You and your WHOLE extended team members give me more data & Lakewide observations almost Dailey than most Agencies I deal with PERIOD....And I appreciate that VERY MUCH. We always politely disagree and are usually both understanding  after. My point was, So many fisherman concerned about Lake Trout should do what they can is all. Not many charters out there( MYSELF INCLUDED ) fish for the easiest target species out there after they limit on silvers and have to drive over the Lake trout to get back in port........As far as tourny's go , most everyone could do something in their power to adapt rules reflecting there concerns. There are a lot of people here on LOU that are open for discussions going different ways. You are a top 10.        GREAT Michigan stocking update post too ....

 

PS  Please show me how to type "RED" print sometime.

 

 

 

Correct it is not as gloomy as you think. We have had the highest catch rates for quite awhile now.

 

Gill-T    We are trying to look back at the last 10 years data now only. The 1980's----early 1990's Lake Ontario set up will never be that again.

YES Lake Erie played a big part in Lake Ontario's reduction.    (Google: SECCHI disk)

There is about 1/4  to 1/3  the amount of Adult alewife's in the lake now compared to the 1980's--early1990's average. That's why at every meeting/conference call I attend, I push to use last 10 year's data only and observe the trends.

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Edited August 11, 2016 by RUNNIN REBEL

[Gill-T]

Rick, unfortunately this has become a study in human nature. On Lake Michigan and now on Ontario many charter captains are for cutting Lake Trout .....just not in their home port. This shortsightedness will lead to less profits for those captains down the road as you are not going to get many out-of-staters coming up to fish Lake Trout. Kings create the buzz that drives the machine.

[Yankee Troller]

Rick, unfortunately this has become a study in human nature. On Lake Michigan and now on Ontario many charter captains are for cutting Lake Trout .....just not in their home port. This shortsightedness will lead to less profits for those captains down the road as you are not going to get many out-of-staters coming up to fish Lake Trout. Kings create the buzz that drives the machine.

 

Those are the same guys that fish one port all season and complain about the fishery. The same ones who promise Kings and Steelbows, but start their morning off flying cowbells and peanuts. That's why I get calls weekly about catching Salmon after they walk off a LT boat in July and August. No one calls specifically for LT. I do push kids into September and let them catch LT becasue they can handle them and the action is quick. I do fish for them. There are too many!

[Gill-T]

You guys in charter associations need to get your ducks in a row.  If some members are against Laker cuts in certain ports, it will send mixed signals to the DEC.  People hear what they want to hear so the DEC may see it as a mandate to keep laker stocking numbers the same if they are hearing vocal charter captains against laker cuts.  Take a vote and present the DEC as "For" or "Against" Lake Trout cuts.  One voice.

[GAMBLER]

I fish lakers more than most and own a business selling lake trout lures. If anyone should be against it, it should be me. I see the writing on the wall. If we don't have kings, we will not have much of a sport fishery on Lake Ontario and I can kiss my business goodbye! I also see that the adult lake trout population is a big part (bigger than the DEC admits) of the issue that could be in our future if the alewives numbers are what the data says they are.

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

[Yankee Troller]

After last nights meeting at the Irondequoit Fish and Game I left feeling that if they make any adjustments it's just not a Chinook only adjustment. I also left feeling like it wont be much of an adjustment, and that it will whole heartily be reversed once we get through those two bad classes of Alewife. We don't have water quality issues like Huron and Michigan. Our adjustments are being made to offset the two harsh winters we had that were abnormal in our weather pattern.

 

One of my concerns about the extra Fall fingerling LT stockings was answered and that program has stopped. It wasn't successful. I did try for a lifted season and increased limit, but was met with hesitation by Mr. Lapan. I'd still like to see the season lifted. They are the only fish with a season out there. I do my part to harvest them, and would do so longer given the chance.

 

If people are truly concerned that the LT pressure is too much then please take your limit while you're out there. Every bit helps.

[jimski2]

The forty pound Kings came at a time when the forage base was out of control completely and the salmon were stocked originally to end the beaches of dead alewives. It worked. Do not expect it to return until our beaches are full of dead alewives again.

[chinook35]

After last nights meeting at the Irondequoit Fish and Game I left feeling that if they make any adjustments it's just not a Chinook only adjustment. I also left feeling like it wont be much of an adjustment, and that it will whole heartily be reversed once we get through those two bad classes of Alewife. We don't have water quality issues like Huron and Michigan. Our adjustments are being made to offset the two harsh winters we had that were abnormal in our weather pattern.

One of my concerns about the extra Fall fingerling LT stockings was answered and that program has stopped. It wasn't successful. I did try for a lifted season and increased limit, but was met with hesitation by Mr. Lapan. I'd still like to see the season lifted. They are the only fish with a season out there. I do my part to harvest them, and would do so longer given the chance.

If people are truly concerned that the LT pressure is too much then please take your limit while you're out there. Every bit helps.

even though I find LT inedible. I agree that a limit catch should be kept and disposed of any way the angler deems appropriate. Edited August 12, 2016 by chinook35

[Sk8man]

In watching this particular thread progress it strikes me just how important this website is to the fishing community and how whether sport fisherman or charters or American or Canadian we are all in this together and all have a very big stake in these issues both short and long term. The expression of varied opinions and perspectives and willingness to share them is also vital to the process and we are all benefiting from this discussion in understanding  this complex problem. I would hope that the DEC and Canadian counterpart are exposed to this information and set of opinions as well and that it somehow helps shape their thinking and actions in the end through concerted group pressure. We all need to remain vigilant and informed and I for one appreciate the sharing of information that is taking place here.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Sk8man

[UNREEL]

I also attended last nights meeting and thought the DEC made some valid points on the year classes of alewives. It seems everyone has the opinion that there is no bait problem, however, knowing that a 2-3 year old class of bait is hurting is beyond me. Maybe I'm gullible, but Steve Lapan made a good case for a slight stocking reduction, to be reversed with improved alewife strengths. I also will be trying to reduce the LT numbers, I got a guy who takes all we give him.

[Trout-N-About]

In watching this particular thread progress it strikes me just how important this website is to the fishing community and how whether sport fisherman or charters or American or Canadian we are all in this together and all have a very big stake in these issues both short and long term. The expression of varied opinions and perspectives and willingness to share them is also vital to the process and we are all benefiting from this discussion in understanding  this complex problem. I would hope that the DEC and Canadian counterpart are exposed to this information and set of opinions as well and that it somehow helps shape their thinking and actions in the end through concerted group pressure. We all need to remain vigilant and informed and I for one appreciate the sharing of information that is taking place here.

The DEC do look at these posts and use them to get a feel for what the fishing community is concerned about.

[JakeyBaby]

It's an obvious fact that LT numbers are to high and that they live much longer then a King. Eat all day poop then eat more. Are stocked at higher numbers then should be. But if everyone whent out there with intentions to lower the population and keeping what the state says they can every trip , wouldn't that give the DEC more of reason not to cut the stocking number of LT'S and possibly even raise them even higher?

[RUNNIN REBEL]

.

 

A VERY IMPORTANT NUMBER when discussing Lake trout pressure on a food source ecosystem. You need to know How many Lake Trout are in your system and trends. Everyone seems to assume there are big numbers out there now.

 

 The Lake trout abundance chart has been used since 1980 (BEFORE the early lake trout stockings had a  chance to grow 20+++ years on the huge numbers of alewife dyeing off on the beaches. These are gill-netted fish(shows all sizes/ages/health including badly hit by lamprey/dyeing  fish).These numbers count the Class 1 (Open wound/freshest) lamprey hits against per 100 lake trout to pretty much tell how Lake Ontario lamprey control is working and possible trends.

 

 

NOW, this number also represents the CURRENT lake trout in Lake Ontario that are putting the MOST pressure on alewives NOW. What we stock in Lake Trout last year and this year and the next 3 years have very little effect if any on current and 2-3 year future potential bait fish number concerns.

The current number of lake trout in the lake now are AROUND the same numbers of Lake trout we had in 1985 AND Late 1990's (1998/1999) and early 2000's. Not a high or low number of them just Average. That's why you are not catching Lake Trout Lake wide in USA & Canada. Average amount of lake trout present.

Since 2010-2011 they have gone up in numbers (^trend^) for 3 to 4 years

Then last year 2015 started down.

 

TAKE AWAY FROM THIS

 

The perception of " We are putting to many Lake Trout numbers in the lake now "

The extra 200,000-300,000 Lake trout being stocked as fingerlings have had very little survival since extra numbers inception, and are being CANCELLED. There is your 1st cut in Lake trout stocking numbers. (NOTE chart : "DECLINE in gill net catch of immature fish since 2010/likely to remain at this level)

 

If potential adjustment in salmon number comes, You can bet the 2015 decline on chart will continue down (v trend v) with the increased fishing pressure from fisherman/charters trying to catch fish consistently (this is proven every time IF fishing for salmon or steelhead is POOR then fishing pressure increases on the other species)

 

PERSONAL OBSERVATION: 

Why cut Lake trout stocking numbers now, When they need  a few years to grow/catchable ? That time frame (5 years out + or - ) puts you in the middle of the salmon adjustment number years, When MORE viable diverse fishery will be sought after most...........

 

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Edited August 12, 2016 by RUNNIN REBEL