Overview for Discussions Regarding 2017 Salmon and Trout Stocking Levels in Lake Ontario

[RUNNIN REBEL]

FINAL_Overview for Discussions Regarding 2017 Salmon and Trout Stocking Levels in Lake Ontario.pdf

[RUNNIN REBEL]

Discussions Regarding Salmon and Trout Stocking Levels in Lake Ontario

 

Public meetings will be held at the following locations:

Monday, September 19: 6:30 p.m. - 9:00 p.m. at the Cornell Cooperative Extension Building, 4487 Lake Avenue, Lockport, Niagara County. 

 

Tuesday, September 20: 6:30 p.m. - 9:00 p.m. at the Sandy Creek High School auditorium, 124 Salisbury Street, Oswego County. 

 

Tuesday, September 27: 6:30 p.m. - 9:00 p.m. at the Town of Greece Town Hall, 1 Vince Tofany Blvd., Monroe County. 

 

Department staff will present information, and the audience will have ample time to ask questions and provide input on potential management actions. Those who cannot attend a meeting can provide comments at [email protected]

A final decision will be announced in mid-October, 2016

[RUNNIN REBEL]

PLEASE attend the meetings listed at the end of the information, as input is needed before mid October.

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

[A-TOM-MIK]

This is great news !!!!

 

Should have minimal impact if any at all

 

Tom

[RUNNIN REBEL]

Tom,

I read it the same way....We have been threw "naturally " worse king reductions before. Weather will play a bigger factor in the grand scheme of things.

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

[A-TOM-MIK]

Yes Sir, Mother Nature is our biggest culprit, 800k stockers in 2008 and I wish every season was like 2010 and 11

[Fat Trout]

Looking at the history in the write up seems to prove the effectiveness of stocking cuts.

 

2008 was very low stocking due to drought.

2011 was year 3 for those 2008 fish.

2012 and 2013 was a banner year for Alewife hatch and is now the bulk of the bait we are supposedly living off of.  

Edited September 12, 2016 by Fat Trout

[GAMBLER]

The reduction in lake trout is a good move in the DEC's part IMO. The kings are not the only major threat to the alewive population.

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

[rdebadts]

I like what I am seeing. And I've had incredibly good interactions with the dec folks about this. I'll be at the meeting in Greece

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

[ReelPower]

Rebel you do a great service getting important and objective fisheries management information out to anglers, thank you.

[Yankee Troller]

I'm OK with all of this, and applaud the DEC on trying to maintain a healthy ecosystem. Now if they would only up the LT limit for a couple of years, and get rid of the season on them. With what we know about LT diets when they are pounding the Alewife we should want to pound them to help get that bait level back up to what it needs to be!

[Dex]

All,

 

Keep asking questions!!  Rob Legacy also posted on the LOU For Change forum (and I responded).  The DEC is stating up to 50% natural reproduction.  I know of the clipped fish "experiment," but is 50% a true and accurate representation?  Huge assumption IMO.  Gosh, I HATE to lose any Chinnies........Dex

[GAMBLER]

There would not be a need to up the creel limit for lakers if guys would fish them more.  They are stocked and very few are kept. 

[GAMBLER]

All,

 

Keep asking questions!!  Rob Legacy also posted on the LOU For Change forum (and I responded).  The DEC is stating up to 50% natural reproduction.  I know of the clipped fish "experiment," but is 50% a true and accurate representation?  Huge assumption IMO.  Gosh, I HATE to lose any Chinnies........Dex

A couple guys on Lake Michigan rented the wand they use to see if a CWD tag is in a king.  They found some very information.  The number of unclipped fish WITH a CWD tag was higher than we were lead to believe.  Check out No SALMON SOCIETY on Facebook.  It is a closed group.  Some interesting reads on the page. 

[A-TOM-MIK]

I'm sure there is some rebuttal type notions/statements directed at us fishermen as a whole coming from the DEC. Especially concerned with NR %'s, for any of you that frequent the "meeting scenes' sure does seem like most of the input during the Q/A periods comes off as shouting matches and accusatory towards them. So for them to "stress" a certain point or even over-pronounce it, to me is to be expected. Personally IMO I feel we do see a 25-40% NR rate from year to year, this is my opinion and from the area I fish Oswego. 

As far as the newly projected LT cuts I feel this is a direct response from input from us at meetings, does anybody really feel this would have come to fruition if not for our input? The DEC sure did have their answers ready and in place when many of us first squawked about it !!

What I'm getting at is the importance of our participation at all meetings, I get flack all the time for comments like this but its true: "Anglers will drive or re-work their schedule to fish no matter what, but when it comes time to help at a pen project or attend a meeting all of a sudden its too far or it doesn't fit a schedule"

Our importance is huge and our input is heard, and it must continue, and it must grow, but be smart at these meetings, say your piece but with appreciation in your tone. If I've said it once I've said it a hundred times, the DEC has "managed" to keep Kings "in the system" for a very very long time, this against the highest of obstacles, from weather to invasive's and we are still catching Kings today !!!

 

Tom

[Dex]

Couldn't agree more with Tom - had the opportunity to go to a meeting in August. Keep it professional, ask appropriate questions, and give feedback when asked and the DEC folks are much more accommodating IMO.

To your point about natural reproduction as per your own experiences Tom, are you at all concerned these numbers are markedly different then what we are being told? Once again I HATE to lose any Chinnies.......Dex

[RUNNIN REBEL]

You guy's bring up 3 great points here

 

1 st...        A-Tom-MIK  Tom   Your observations and comments are Spot on. You are absolutely correct about attending meetings or lack of it fitting in to people's schedules. I see it every week now, Time & effort is invaluable. You have no Idea how much of our input was taken  into consideration of current Lake Trout cuts and RESTRUCTURING process we have on the table now. Again Tom your personal observation of a %25--%40 natural reproduction rate pretty darn accurate (after we take out the high %70 & low %37 years then average out)

 

2 nd.         DEX   Natural reproduction fluctuates year to year for many reasons. To get to current %50 average

                  

                 2008 year class @ age 3 was %37 (drought of 2007) was our lowest.

                 Highest % of naturals  was %70  (YES %70 ) for 2010 year class age 3 salmon

 

                 This with  ALL other years in between,  averages out to the current %50. for Lake Ontario

                  Lake Michigan is %60 natural and Lake Huron is OVER %90...BALL PARK FIGURES...

 

Here is the problem, I need ammunition when I attend all these meetings and conference calls. Back to Tom Allen point about angler input & effort, EXAMPLE:  If the nose tags were collected from all the adipose clipped salmon  for just the actual 2 TOURNEY DAYS ONLY of last Canadian tourney in St. Catherine (It was a creel tourney were hundreds of total kings were kept on boats in 2 days) Actually collected and  turned in. That pen reared PROOF, and  NOT natural reproduction numbers would impact the ever growing natural reproduction numbers we are questioning now.

Edited September 13, 2016 by RUNNIN REBEL

[GAMBLER]

I feel all stocked kings should continue to be clipped to keep track of natural reproduction.  The study was done for too short of a duration IMO.  Was it done over a banner stretch of natural reproduction and it has changed?  Have the natural reproduction numbers dropped?  We have the trailer, why not use it to have more data to help manage the fishery? 

Edited September 13, 2016 by GAMBLER

[RUNNIN REBEL]

Brian you are the 3 rd great point.....Just having trouble here at work today....tuff getting back to computer to answer currently

 

Quick comment : The tagging trailer can actually work against us. With so many clipped kings out there and being caught (count the number of king pics on face book with missing adipose fins) VERY few are being returned to collection coolers. I have a DEC collection freezer outside of my own home to collect, I have a very few delivered. THANKS to Rick/Yankee & Jeremy/Jax for their collection efforts at Oak Orchard. So if not many are  returning tags ====a higher natural % number occurs. We are trying to use 10 year trends now instead of the Banner 1980-1990 years data. Point is the less years of data looked at the MORE IMPORTANT each data year becomes.

 

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Edited September 13, 2016 by RUNNIN REBEL

[Dex]

I feel all stocked kings should continue to be clipped to keep track of natural reproduction. The study was done for too short of a duration IMO. Was it done over a banner stretch of natural reproduction and it has changed? Have the natural reproduction numbers dropped? We have the trailer, why not use it to have more data to help manage the fishery?

100% agree with Brian here. If this exercise of clipping fish continues in perpetuity, creel data becomes MUCH more useful and would assist in making year-to-year stocking decisions. Something the DEC stated they would entertain during the meeting I attended.

[Fat Trout]

For what its worth and to aid potential future participation from others.  Has the DEC ever considered a Saturday meeting at at least one location?.  A lot of Lake users travel a long distance and have to schedule in advance to get off of work.    

 

A week day meeting at 6 can be a tall order for many who can't get off of work or essentially need to take 2 days off to be there.

 

Just a thought to help participation.  

[Yankee Troller]

For what its worth and to aid potential future participation from others.  Has the DEC ever considered a Saturday meeting at at least one location?.  A lot of Lake users travel a long distance and have to schedule in advance to get off of work.    

 

A week day meeting at 6 can be a tall order for many who can't get off of work or essentially need to take 2 days off to be there.

 

Just a thought to help participation.  

 

Great point!

[RUNNIN REBEL]

Dex,

I push that idea EVERY one-on-one chance I get (anther LONG discussion for another time). This  is and will likely continue to be a problem UNTILL we make efforts to HELP that decision making with nose tags actually being collected and turned in..

 

EXAMPLE: Fish cleaning station in Oswego, BEST Collection site possible for nose tag collections ANY WHERE on this lake. What happens to all the clipped salmon /tags cleaned there ?  virtually manned every day for months ? Experienced DEC personnel there no longer steady.

 

IDEA: We collect $$$$$ for pen rearing. Why not pay Jim (official fish cleaner) at Oswego cleaning station $1 per nose tag ? This investment would pay HUGE dividends in the data/ natural reproduction scenario. We already  pay him now..............sure he would love extra income for minimal extra work. The collected Pen rearing money spent  would still be spent on Pen rearing accomplishments,

 

Last point ( FOR NOW !!!!!!!!!!! ) The creel data you mention being collected almost NEVERS sees Salmon (let alone clipped salmon) Because almost EVERY charter operation out there cleans and disposes their fish in the open lake. It's the captain recalling the days catch verbally to a clip board.

I just responded to private text of a charter client from east end area of Lake Ontario who sent me pictures of Clipped adipose salmon that the Captain said " did not contain coded nose tags"........NO COMMENT !

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

[Gill-T]

 

Here is the problem, I need ammunition when I attend all these meetings and conference calls. Back to Tom Allen point about angler input & effort, EXAMPLE:  If the nose tags were collected from all the adipose clipped salmon  for just the actual 2 TOURNEY DAYS ONLY of last Canadian tourney in St. Catherine (It was a creel tourney were hundreds of total kings were kept on boats in 2 days) Actually collected and  turned in. That pen reared PROOF, and  NOT natural reproduction numbers would impact the ever growing natural reproduction numbers we are questioning now.

Here is a problem with your problem Jerry.......if we keep showing proof that PEN rearing works, they will use the success of the program against us by refering (inaccurately) to the pen-rearing allotment of fish like having a "stocking increase" due to better survivability. It is a slap to the face of common sense that you punish due to success. With the exception of the Salmon River, pen-rearing should reach 100% for all other locations if everyone wants a slice of the pie come August-October

[Tall Tails]

Here is a problem with your problem Jerry.......if we keep showing proof that PEN rearing works, they will use the success of the program against us by refering (inaccurately) to the pen-rearing allotment of fish like having a "stocking increase" due to better survivability. It is a slap to the face of common sense that you punish due to success. With the exception of the Salmon River, pen-rearing should reach 100% for all other locations if everyone wants a slice of the pie come August-October

We have already been told this is the case.  From the sounds of things if a pen site wants to increase there pen numbers for every 1 pen fish they add they will deduct 2 from the direct stock at that site.  Jerry please correct me if I am wrong but I believe that is what was said on our last call.  For the record I am in favor of this cut as long as it is analyzed every year and increased when it is needed.