questions for the experts

[Craigaf]

questions for the experts

Just trying to shrink the learning curve, what pound test on dipsey diver ? to the diver and from the diver to the spoon or what ever.

on a spoon, do you use a split ring or just tie on ? barrel swivel ? on a downrigger, how far off the weight? I've been out there taking a beating

and getting discouraged so any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated .  I hope to get up there in a couple weeks and would

love to get one.

 

[bandrus1]

You run either braid or wire to the diver

 

I use 30 lb on my divers with a snubber..... I have read a lot of guys are doing 50 lb and ditching the s nubber. I use a swivel to attach to spoons and or flashers

 

How far off the weigh is all preference... spoons 30-100 ft .... flasher fly 10 to 25 ft

 

A could of weeks may be a bit long to be waiting on kings

[Craigaf]

Ok, thank you, I guess I'm a little light with 20 lb. you use a snap swivel on the spoon ? I was there a couple weeks ago and got blown off the lake, 17 ft gets small quick out there. 

[Firechief48]

I run a swivel on both ends of my dipsey leader, leader is about 10' long. 

[Sk8man]

Kind of a "loaded" question ("experts") just a serious sport fisherman

30 lb stranded ss wire TO the dipsey. I use 40 or 50 lb test mono now to the attractor from the dipsey and 40-50 lb test from the attractor to the fly. If using just a spoon behind the dipsey - 30 lb Big Game mono and solid ring swivel snap. I start with about 25 ft. lead on the riggers of 30 lb Sea Flee and experiment from there. Shorter tighter lead the deeper I set the  riggers usually and close to the weight around this time of the season for better hookups. I use 30 lb test Sea Flee line as mainline (to repel fleas) and 20 lb Seguar fluoro leader about 20 ft long solid ring swivel to spoon. If I run hardware off riggers (e.g. attractors) I remove the fluoro leader and go with straight 30 lb Sea Flee.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Sk8man

[Paul Czarnecki]

If you REALLY want to shorten the learning curve you should consider a "teaching charter" with a reputable captain that is also a good instructor. $600-$700 and your learning curve would be shortened considerably.


Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

[Rich D]

If you REALLY want to shorten the learning curve you should consider a "teaching charter" with a reputable captain that is also a good instructor. $600-$700 and your learning curve would be shortened considerably.


Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

X2!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[Craigaf]

Thank you all for the input. A charter is a great idea if I could get a few to go in on it, but 6-700 plus food , hotel , gas to get there is a $1k weekend.  Not in the budget 

[Paul Czarnecki]

Thank you all for the input. A charter is a great idea if I could get a few to go in on it, but 6-700 plus food , hotel , gas to get there is a $1k weekend.  Not in the budget 

If that's "not in your budget" what do you think it's going to cost you to learn "the hard way" on your own???


Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[Craigaf]

well Paul Czarnecki, I guess I figured I could ask questions on a web site that was geared toward fisherman sharing knowledge, experience, and information. I guess I thought there was a place for newbies to go to and converse with knowledgeable people willing to teach and coach. I guess I didn't expect an "attitude". But ! I did receive several PM's that were very positive and helpful and I will be contacting them.  As for you Paul, tight lines !

[seeyawader]

On 9/5/2017 at 1:15 AM, Craigaf said:

well Paul Czarnecki, I guess I figured I could ask questions on a web site that was geared toward fisherman sharing knowledge, experience, and information. I guess I thought there was a place for newbies to go to and converse with knowledgeable people willing to teach and coach. I guess I didn't expect an "attitude". But ! I did receive several PM's that were very positive and helpful and I will be contacting them.  As for you Paul, tight lines !

I just switched to 30lb wire on my 3 rods to my dipseys, less stretch when setting the hook and breaking dipseys free made easier. Don't forget the twilee tip. But when the wire line gets a nest what a pain. I found you have to spend time out there and on somedays the fish just don't want to bite. That is when the charters have the tricks up their sleeve to force the bite. Good luck you can do it!

[Decoy Hound]

I have to agree with Paul Czarnecki somewhat, I have a four hour drive to get to Lake Ontario and only have weekends to fish. So for me it made sense to go on a charter to shorten the learning curve. But if I lived closer and would have more time to fish for salmon I would of tried on my own first. But to me my time off work is precious ( I get very little time off ) so I want to put it to good use. This is a great site and I've learned a hell of a lot from the people on here. You can also get a lot of your questions answered at some Tackle shops, Greg at ASB Tackle in Newfane is very knowledgeable and got us setup with everything we needed. Good luck!

[Trouthunter]

• Not everyone can afford to take a charter that is what a board like this is for that how we learn pro or beginner
•  

[whycanteye]

If you have a boat and salmon gear....you can figure out how to come up with the $$ for a charter!

Sent from my XT1585 using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[whaler1]

But you don't have to. Plenty of info here. Lot of people will help you. It's not rocket science, some good advice will go a long way.
Gotta wonder how many of you guys saying you'd pony up $700 plus can't buy a tee shirt without your wife's permission.


Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

[whaler1]

• Not everyone can afford to take a charter that is what a board like this is for that how we learn pro or beginner
•  

X2


Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[Decoy Hound]

2 hours ago, whaler1 said:

But you don't have to. Plenty of info here. Lot of people will help you. It's not rocket science, some good advice will go a long way.
Gotta wonder how many of you guys saying you'd pony up $700 plus can't buy a tee shirt without your wife's permission.


Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

But the t-shirts we want to buy the wives won't let us wear outside of the house! Lol

[Sk8man]

Paul's suggestion of going on an "instructional" charter certainly has merit and is something to consider for folks that can afford it, but like a lot of things on LOU such as the purchase of the latest and greatest (and expensive) equipment. or large boat not everyone has the resources available or else has different pressing priorities like food, shelter, and clothing. Some may have a lesser commitment to fishing itself and may have to divide their money between it and numerous other interests. There is nothing wrong  with the suggestion itself. There is however, a big difference between charter captains too and their ability tto communicate and instruct. -  just as in about everything else some may have much greater experience, teaching ability, patience, willingness to answer questions or "give up" specifics,  and ability to communicate ideas or experiences; especially to novices without experience asking uninformed questions. Sometimes even personality factors come into play in the sharing of information. Some may be excellent fishermen with extensive knowledge, superior navigation skills, and be eager to share specific informational knowledge without charge as is done by some great ones here on LOU. Some others may have taken their classes for the captains exam, paid substantial money to do it, have a large boat and brand new expensive equipment - but lack the years of fishing experience or instructional skills best suited to the acceleration of the learning curve for the "student". So, in one case the money paid for a charter may be considered  "indispensible" and the other a potential waste of time and money depending on either careful selection or else using the "dartboard" approach and taking your chances. There are many excellent choices possible right here on LOU. It might be beneficial to someone considering the instructional approach to first do your homework in selecting the appropriate charter for this purpose, ask the captain if he/she is comfortable answering your questions and instructing you during the charter, and then taking some responsibility yourself by carefully thinking about what you want to achieve and what specific questions to ask them. Write them down on index cards  and then ask the captain at opportune times, not necessarily while they are in the midst of navigating traffic or rigging lines etc. Some folks will be stuck with the second option of learning all this stuff by the "school of hard knocks" and although the path may be slower with more twists and turns it nevertheless is possible and is worthy of pursuing.

Edited September 10, 2017 by Sk8man

[Craigaf]

Sh8man,  thank you,  very insightful writing and I think you are spot on 

[LakerTaker]

I don't fish Lake O, I fish Huron and Michigan, but I started out trolling for Kings in a deep, long bay (I could see 3 sides of land). Starting out close to shore built my confidence for deep water fishing and allowed me to figure things out, make mistakes, and learn from experience. I also went fishing with friends who had much larger boats, on larger bodies of water and further offshore - this also helped to gain confidence and learn what works and what doesn't.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

 

[carhartt123]

Craig I'm in a similar situation as you. This was my first year running the lake in my own boat. I have an 18' starcraft and experienced getting blown off the lake my second day on the water. Even though this is my first year running the boat I have been here for years, fished many times with friends, and taken a lot of charters. The information I gained on those trips was invaluable but putting that information into practice on my own has been something totally different. All my time on the water this year was really learned what not to do more then anything but did finally manage one nice coho. Best thing I can say is keep it as simple as possible. Go in with a plan. Even write down the plan anf be as detailed as possible down to what lure on what rod. My first two trips I went with a general idea of what I wanted to do and ended up fumbling around for the first hour on the water. I now believe the process is more important than the lures in the water. A good amount of the information to get rigged up right can be found digging around on this site. Keep at it and the fish will come. Charters are a great learning experience and could be valuable at any point even years from now you never know what you could pick up. Another thing to watch for is guys on here with an open seat for a day. Good luck out there

Sent from my SM-G950U using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[garrymny]

Just finishing my second year of fishing LO for salmon. I did it all myself, my own boat, my own equipment, learned from this site,learned from watching youtube, learned from taking the "salmon school" up in Niagara Falls. Yes, a charter that will teach you, is a good idea, if you can afford it, but you can do it yourself and have some success.   I may suggest that instead of the $700 charter, buy an autopilot, that will keep your boated in a straight line while you tends lines and land fish. In a nutshell, some of what I learned learned from fishing 2 or 3 days a week the last two years and absorbing everything and also trial and error:  I am not an expert, but I do fairly well, sometimes, but I know there is allot more for me to learn. I'm Just trying to help you with the following advice:

 

1. You need reels that hold LOTS of line, and that have decent drags. Get the best you can afford. 

2. Use 40 or 50lb braid from the reel to the diver, or 30 lb 7 strand wire. I use Chinook divers, #4. Black is what you want. From the diver to the paddle, or spin doctor, use the longest lead you can and still land the fish. If you have a dipsy rod, 10 feet long, you can use a 6- 8 foot leader from the diver to the spoon, or to the paddle/spin doctor. From the paddle/spin doctor, use a 23 inch leader of #40 lb mono or floro for flies, and a 36 inch  40# leader for a spoon. You can fish a spoon clean (no SD or paddle) behind the diver.

3.  You need really heavy duty strong hooks, and sharp. 

4. Glow stuff in dark days and early morning, UV when in sun. Thats what everyone says.

5. Speed should be 2.2 to 2.7, down at the lure. The GPS speed is an aid, but you need a fish hawk, or one of the others to know what speed is down there, at the downrigger ball, because of the currents. Yes, I think the fish hawk helped catch some more fish this year than last. You could use downrigger cable angles as an indication as well. Try for 45 degree angle, and vary it to see what works.

6. Best money I spent was for an autopilot. Especially if you want to fish alone.

7. Spring and summer is much better than fall for salmon.

8. Calm days are much better. Rough days, I catch very few fish. 

9. Lead core, 10 colors out, catches me lots of steelhead. I use a les davis inline spinner rig ahead of my spoon. Spoon is 36 inches back behind the spinners. I put the leadcore out on a home-made paner board and home made mast to get it away from my other rods to prevent tangles.

10. Use palomar knots on terminal gear. A perfection loop also is useful, for one end of the leader, and on the other end use a HEAVY barrel swivel. For joining lines to backer or leaders, use an an albright.

11. With the diver, be sure you know which side of the boat to deploy it. you will have tangled messes if you don't.

12. East winds, or NE. Stay home. Mow the grass. Prep your gear. Take wife out for dinner (knowing when the wind shifts you will abandon her).

13. Get the biggest net you can find. Net head first. Slow the boat down if possible, but do not stop the boat. A clip ty wrapped to the handle of the net to hold the end of the net is helpful 

14. 1000 feet of 30 lb wire is good for your diver rods, but wire is a challenge to keep from kinking and turning inot a spring coil......but, both my divers now have wire.

15. it is nice to pre-tie your 23 and 36 inch leaders. also some 6 and 8 footers for between the diver and the spoon or paddle. Have them ready in zip baggies so you can deploy rods quicker. 

16. many times I catch fish when I see nothing on the screen.

17. many times I catch fish when i see fish on the screen

18 I feel more confident when I see fish on the screen

19 double what the wave height forecast says. 1 to 3, means 2 to 6.

20. Temperature of the water is important in locating fish. It appears in the spring and especially summer, it is more important than in the fall.  It appears that 44 to 52 is a good range, from what I understand. Temperture breaks, both up and down in the water column, as well as across distances, can be important. Thermoclines. This is stuff I am still trying to figure out. 

21. Locating the fish is everything. temps, scum lines (? what the hell are those) bait etc. 

22. Find the bait, find the fish........sometimes. But are the fish you find hungry or sleeping? Makes a difference. I was taught to make some passes, but if no action, may be better to try to  find hungry fish.

23. winds can screw you up, or make it good. how to react to the winds is important, but I have not figured this out yet, except for see #12.

24. Don't let your rods whip around on the way to and from the dock, it  frays the lines, especially if you leave the diver or paddle on them. Don't do it. Check lines often, cut back occasionally when the ends get frazzled, or even if you feel suspect bad spot   

25. small fish won't pop your diver or rigger release. you will drag them for hours if you don't check your lines once in a while. check your lines every ten minutes. remove weeds too.

26. fleas suck, in later summer, switch to heavy mono or sea flea line if necessary. Mono will not allow you to pop the diver.....even the DR release is hard, too much stretch. 

27. mornings seem calmer, and evenings you have to deal with the afternoon thunderstorms. 

28. try to put out a "program" of rods. For example, I run two downriggers, each at a different depth and each with  a different lure. One with a spoon,one with a flasher and fly, or meat.  I run a diver rod off each side, one with a spoon one with a flasher fly. Both will be at differnt amounts of line out.  I run the leadcore off one side, on a planer board, it has an in line spinner rig, with a  spoon. I always put out the full 10 colors (100 yards) of lead which gives you about 50 feet depth. So I normally have 5 rods out. If it is rough , reduce the number of rods out, gets too difficult to manage.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2017 by garrymny

[garrymny]

On 9/4/2017 at 11:19 PM, Paul Czarnecki said:

 

If that's "not in your budget" what do you think it's going to cost you to learn "the hard way" on your own???


Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United mobile app

 

The thing is, the 600- to 700 outlay all at once may not be in someone's budget, but picking away and learning little by little, and spending it in small bits is sometimes do-able. I totally understand this. Yes, in the end, a person will likely spend more over time  (in both time and money) to learn what could be learned in a day's charter, but it will be spread out over time. Like buyng a car. Most take out a loan, they don't pay the 25K all at once. Sure it would be nice to be able to do, but most cannot. 

[whycanteye]

I came up the weekend before labor day from Ohio, fuel in truck and boat $275, 3 nights lodging $300, launching fish & boat cleaning$50, licenses derby tickets for me & wife $140. Tackle I had to have $150, tackle I lost $125, meals $250 = $1290 so then what did I do? I came back labor day weekend, so in a matter of 2 weeks there's a quick $2500 it goes fast.....you're welcome state of New York and town of newfane/olcott.

Sent from my XT1585 using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[garrymny]

Yep, I earned quick that this salmon fishing is real expensive. started out using 15 lb leaders....after losing $100 in gear, went to 40 lb.