Florida school shooting

[Hookedup]

13 minutes ago, stoneam2006 said:

Studies done by liberals...im not even 30 and I had the fear of God put in me at a young age. Fear of consequence goes along way. Why do you think these cowards attack schools? They fear being met with resistance but don't fear the consequence.

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Exactly!!  Strict physical discipline LOL!  I don't think anyone here believes beating a child is a recipe for success.   Don't need a study to figure that out.  But respect and fear of consequences at a young age is not taught by the majority of parents.  I remember getting pulled over at 16 and it was yes sir or no sir.  Now the little snow flakes are laughing and asking what the Fu** did you stop me for.   My oldest is in high school came home the first week telling me how only her and one other girl in her math class don't use drugs.  And the laundry list of kids that tell teachers were to go is insane.  Maybe they need more safe zones to talk about there feelings.

[stoneam2006]

Exactly!!  Strict physical discipline LOL!  I don't think anyone here believes beating a child is a recipe for success.   Don't need a study to figure that out.  But respect and fear of consequences at a young age is not taught by the majority of parents.  I remember getting pulled over at 16 and it was yes sir or no sir.  Now the little snow flakes are laughing and asking what the Fu** did you stop me for.   My oldest is in high school came home the first week telling me how only her and one other girl in her math class don't use drugs.  And the laundry list of kids that tell teachers were to go is insane.  Maybe they need more safe zones to talk about there feelings.

Right don't need to beat them to have them understand consequences and to respect the rules. It's amazing some of the stuff I hear preteen kids say to their parents at restraunts stores and what the wife says happens at school (sub teacher) these little pukes have no respect for anything or anyone but themselves and clearly with the drug and other epidemics they don't have much respect for themselves either. Such a shame to see this happening and knowing I have (hopefully ) another 50 plus years to watch it. I don't know if I can..may end up a hermit

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[Lewis863]

Everyone keeps asking what has changed.  Multiple generations of failed marriages, disintegration of the family unit, poor parenting.  When you look at the vast majority of these killers they come from broken fatherless homes, they are outcasts from normal relations.  When you arent sharing time with your children at a dinner table and raising them they will fill their heads with the crap that spews forth from the internet.  The concept of making the guns illegal is just more people not wanting to adress the harder problem and the real core.  Someone can always find a way to kill ...bombs, planes, cars, guns you cant outlaw all of it.  

 

Its not pc to tell a feminist that she isnt capable of raisng a boy on her own, it isnt pc to tell men to stop getting women pregnant and failing to care for the child that is created.  Be a family, put the value of raising your children above the value of getting more stuff.  If your going to have children someone needs to stay home and raise them.  Homeschooling is the way to go, resources are better than ever, while our schools are descending into liberal pc hell.  

 

Our society crumbles and the best way to stop it is to hold eachother accountable....

 

my 2 cents...

[Sk8man]

We've certainly identified many of the potential sources of the problems here but the real trick is to come up with answers and solutions. Have you heard some of these kids from the Florida school responding to this situation? It is heart renching and they have very good points and the adults of our society have in fact let them down. Yes there are many negatives connected the current way some of our youth are developing but there are also many very good kids out there who are intelligent, aware, and actively involved in trying to make it a better world and striving for changes in the environment that they feel are critial to having a viable future for themselves and their potential children. These are complex issues requiring complex solutions and involving the efforts of all of us together. We can no longer depend on government alone to solve these issues for us we need to exert solid and united pressure on them to do their damned jobs and not just vote for the name on the ballot box we may recognize from the ads on TV. Some of these politicians should have been out of office long ago on both sides of the aisle and both in Albany and Washington.

 

The always mentioned "gun control" which like the bogus SAFE Act translates into doing absolutely nothing to address the actual problems but to make a fake show of it all the while indicating that they know absolutely nothing about firearms themselves (indicated clearly by their own public statements) let alone what to do about the problems of the wrong people obtaining guns and the illegal transfer of them etc,. Radical adherence to the current NRA stances and lobbying influences is not rational in light of all these repeated situations either.

 

There are some things that can be done rationally but it may not be popular with everyone.. The current background checks are a sorry joke and are not inclusive enough, nor are they given adequate time to complete as per the existing waiting periods. The waiting periods should be standardized at the federal level to apply to all states and there should be adequate resources and personnel devoted to this activity freeing up the FBI agents and consistent sharing of information that is kept current.  The current HIPA regulations prevent a good deal of information to be forthcoming and used in the data base. These regs need to be modified to correct this. Yes, it may involve specific adjustments to personal liberties but isn't our kids safety worth it? Many of my contacts who appeared on my pistol permit application years ago were personally contacted and interviewed at length by law enforcement before the judge issued it. Again, a separate unit (thus not bogging down law enforcement) properly staffed with adequate resources and specifically devoted to this task should be created.   When I was in the military my interim security clearance was done by FBI agents interviewing at length my neighbors, the high school, and my family physician among other sources. This process should be nearly as rigorous.  It is easier in some places for teen agers to purchase either online or in person semi auto weapons like AR-15's and AK-47s or their like without anything but a flimsy incomplete background check. People shouldn't have nearly immediate access to purchase them and social media sources should also be thoroughly checked as part of the process; pistol permits in NYS take months to clear the process so why should these weapons be any different? Recently another twist has come about - the assembly of these weapoins from individual parts requiring no serial number on them and it is a very lucratiuve business and an active source for drug dealers etc. The recent situation in Las Vegas pointed up the need for something to be doneabout the bump stocks that allow semi's to become virtually fully auto. I'm not some anti gun person making these comments....something needs to change here to at least try to limit access to people that shouldn't possess these weapons. Gun shows need to be more clearly scrutinized as well and the more thorough beckground checking process implemened there .Our schools need to be beefed up security wise and the processes for egress and identification fortified with someone that can effectively intervene where necessary (e.g. security presence) and they can't be encumbered with other distracting duties.

The Florida situation points up glaring weaknesses in our detecting and reporting systems and follow-through, flaws in the background check process, failures of adequate safeguards in soft target areas such as schools, and a lack of systematic transsmission of important data that could affect or possibly avert these tragic outcomes.  

 

Edited February 18, 2018 by Sk8man

[steelie]

I never used to carry even though I’ve had my permit since 91. For a few years now I carry everywhere.
Couple of these guys take a round between the eyes and these cowards will think twice.



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Totally agree whaler!!!! Same with my wife and I, don't leave home without em.

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[Xxx]

Should I link the studies that show strict physical discipline leads to higher rates of depression and violent behavior  as adults or let you guys just keep going

Let me tell you my father Never laid a hand on my behind or other parts of me. My two sisters were raised in your world, paid their car, car insurance, basically no fear no worries. I had 1 driving ticket in my life thats it. My sisters are a waste to society!! On drugs, robbed my house. Both been in jail for stealing a prescription pad and writing out there own scripts. Dont tell me about discipline. Give my mom and dad the finger, soon as dad would go to do something my mom would intercept, just let them go. I would have had to weed the garden all weekend. Look at what you created. When I had my Cinderella license you best bet you were in the driveway by 11:59pm because the light came on to the sidewalks to get in. 12:01am no lights but dad was there with his hand out, put the keys in his hand and don't ask when you were getting them. They will lay on the counter in do time. Mom & dad got divorced and my sisters went to Florida with mom, I told you what pieces of human shyt to society. Nuff said about discipline. Im not in jail, never robbed anyone. Everything I own I had to work for never got anything handed to me other than my own ass when it was well deserved!! Even by these damn walleyes. LOL

We've certainly identified many of the potential sources of the problems here but the real trick is to come up with answers and solutions. Have you heard some of these kids from the Florida school responding to this situation? It is heart renching and they have very good points and the adults of our society have in fact let them down. Yes there are many negatives connected the current way some of our youth are developing but there are also many very good kids out there who are intelligent, aware, and actively involved in trying to make it a better world and striving for changes in the environment that they feel are critial to having a viable future for themselves and their potential children. These are complex issues requiring complex solutions and involving the efforts of all of us together. We can no longer depend on government alone to solve these issues for us we need to exert solid and united pressure on them to do their damned jobs and not just vote for the name on the ballot box we may recognize from the ads on TV. Some of these politicians should have been out of office long ago on both sides of the aisle and both in Albany and Washington.
 
The always mentioned "gun control" which like the bogus SAFE Act translates into doing absolutely nothing to address the actual problems but to make a fake show of it all the while indicating that they know absolutely nothing about firearms themselves (indicated clearly by their own public statements) let alone what to do about the problems of the wrong people obtaining guns and the illegal transfer of them etc,. Radical adherence to the current NRA stances and lobbying influences is not rational in light of all these repeated situations either.
 
There are some things that can be done rationally but it may not be popular with everyone.. The current background checks are a sorry joke and are not inclusive enough, nor are they given adequate time to complete as per the existing waiting periods. The waiting periods should be standardized at the federal level to apply to all states and there should be adequate resources and personnel devoted to this activity freeing up the FBI agents and consistent sharing of information that is kept current.  The current HIPA regulations prevent a good deal of information to be forthcoming and used in the data base. These regs need to be modified to correct this. Yes, it may involve specific adjustments to personal liberties but isn't our kids safety worth it? Many of my contacts who appeared on my pistol permit application years ago were personally contacted and interviewed at length by law enforcement before the judge issued it. Again, a separate unit (thus not bogging down law enforcement) properly staffed with adequate resources and specifically devoted to this task should be created.   When I was in the military my interim security clearance was done by FBI agents interviewing at length my neighbors, the high school, and my family physician among other sources. This process should be nearly as rigorous.  It is easier in some places for teen agers to purchase either online or in person semi auto weapons like AR-15's and AK-47s or their like without anything but a flimsy incomplete background check. People shouldn't have nearly immediate access to purchase them and social media sources should also be thoroughly checked as part of the process; pistol permits in NYS take months to clear the process so why should these weapons be any different? Recently another twist has come about - the assembly of these weapoins from individual parts requiring no serial number on them and it is a very lucratiuve business and an active source for drug dealers etc. The recent situation in Las Vegas pointed up the need for something to be doneabout the bump stocks that allow semi's to become virtually fully auto. I'm not some anti gun person making these comments....something needs to change here to at least try to limit access to people that shouldn't possess these weapons. Gun shows need to be more clearly scrutinized as well and the more thorough beckground checking process implemened there .Our schools need to be beefed up security wise and the processes for egress and identification fortified with someone that can effectively intervene where necessary (e.g. security presence) and they can't be encumbered with other distracting duties.
The Florida situation points up glaring weaknesses in our detecting and reporting systems and follow-through, flaws in the background check process, failures of adequate safeguards in soft target areas such as schools, and a lack of systematic transsmission of important data that could affect or possibly avert these tragic outcomes.  
 

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[Gator]

I'll weigh in briefly with two thoughts. First, IMHO the younger kids today are the pendulum swinging in the other direction. From what I can tell, many of my 16-year-old daughter's friends and contemporaries and respectful, open-minded, and a delight to be around. I hear them talk about the disregard other people have for each other with disdain. So, I'm hopeful. Second, I was having a conversation with my boss a couple weeks ago and he's a dyed in the wool liberal. So he's arguing gun control. And he had one valid point that I couldn't disagree with. He said that people, particularly teenagers, who want to kill themselves will often use a gun and be successful. Just as often, it's over a stupid problem that they wouldn't blink at the very next week, because that's how teenagers emotions run, hot and cold. If these kids didn't have as easy access to guns, they likely wouldn't be dead. It's actually hard to kill yourself. Emergency personnel can vouch for this. So, maybe there's some validity to making it harder for kids to access guns. Gun locks work, right? But that's just common sense, which is what I told him. Time to go fish now.

[whaler1]

Keith I don’t think it is. My step brother took his life at 21 years old five years ago and I did some research. Hanging and OD were top two from what I read


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[Gator]

Hey Bill, maybe I didn't communicate well. It's not that guns are the top means, it's that they're most effective. For example, lots of kids OD but live to understand their mistake (no idea on hanging). Far fewer survive the gun. And it sucks to pay the price of temporary teen angst.

 

I'm sorry to hear about your step brother. Les had it right: these are complicated issues with complicated solutions, and we all have a vested interest in the outcome.

[tuffishooker]

Bottom line for me as I understand it the FBI had enough notice to take his guy in ; apparently they did not do their job ! This has nothing to do with " Second Amendment Rights ! "

[Gator]

Again, complicated topic. Until a crime is committed, it's tough to hold someone accountable for what they might do. We don't want to become a police state.

[Sk8man]

Keith's comments are right on target. I would add that a lot of folks may not be aware  that in many cases there is a fine line between suicide and homicide and males and females differ greatly in their choices of lethal methods. Males in our society display early  interest in firearms while females show little interest in them. This interest can become facination and often becomes part of the developmental experience of many if not most males. Females attempt suicide more often but they seldom use firearms or kill others with them, but males do and so the lethality factor is also very different. Males on the other hand often do actually kill themselves, or kill others and then themselves, and sometimes the actual outcome is situational in whether suicide translates into homicidal behavior. My own daughter was a senior in high school when a student brought a shotgun to school in an active shooter situation and ended up taking his own life with it in the bathroom, but it is still unclear what his original intentions may have been.The chances to intervene may be greater when potential fore shadowing signs may appear as females may give more verbal clues to their intentions via Internet postings, chat messages, or verbal exchanges with others close to them. In the current case, there were ample signs that the shooter had significant emotional concerns, had firearms accessible, had repeated life trauma circumstances (e.g. death of both natural parents), repeated visits by law enforcement for various issues, an apparent assessment of danger to himself or others by a social worker suggewsting he was not deemed a threat, alleged reports of cruelty to animals, and the graphic postings with firearms on the Internet - so a myriad of informational clues existed and still nothing occurred to prevent this atrocity. The glaring weaknesses in our existing response "systems", lack of effective integration of informational reporting and sharing between agencies or potential intervention sources, failure of safety protections within the school, and inadequate follow-through by the FBI reporting system have been highlighted, and once again there is an opportunity to change some of the important features that gave rise to this situation that we may have some control over so that futture repetitions may hopefully be averted. One of the things that I find very disturbing is the extreme attention by the media and others paid to the perpetrator because I'm sure there are other unstable folks out there thinking to themselves I too can become "famous" by doing even something more horrendous than this or even learning from the weaknesses that have been exposed by the coverage and detailed descriptions involved.Teenagers and youth are particularly vulnerable to the influences of the "copycat" phenomena.

I know there are probably a number of people out here that are saying to themselves " Why is this being brought up on a forum of fishermen and hunters? etc" To that I would say that what better place to bring up this set of serious issues than a place where thousands of people may see the information and opinions expressed to get folks thinking about the safeguardiing of their own firearms, and support for changes in the current state of affairs?

Edited February 20, 2018 by Sk8man

[Kingfisher06]

The boomer generation really needs to kick the bucket here quick. I’ve never read such low testerone ramblings in all my life. What a  knitting circle, holy Moses. Solution: Exercise your rights, especially the 1st Amendment. If the knitting circle screams hate speech or that your views are killing innocent children, you know you are on the right path. 

[Sk8man]

Don't take the bait folks the guy is always trying to create dissention with his comments.

[Kingfisher06]

Get bent Sk8Man, you’re a perfect example of what I’m talking about-‘shield your eyes from kingfisher’s message guys, it’s different than the limp wristed narrative we’re trying to push here’. You need steroids so bad. 

[L&M]

As was said before >> KEEP IT CLEAN <<  or there will be no more 

[fergie]

I agree with Sk8man.  I don't profess to know the solution, but there IS a problem. Should weapons designed to kill people not be sold? I don't know.  Should people who have mental problems be allowed to posess assault weapons?  I don't know.  Insulting people for expressing their opinion never helped anyone do anything constructive. Please keep the good work folks.  I do actually read posts and what you type makes me think.

[Gator]

Gives new meaning to the word "trolling" 

 

It's always good to be able to engage in dialogue. Demagoguery never contributes to a solution, it just divides us further. I understand that righteous indignation is a powerful emotion. But it's rarely a constructive emotion and is nearly always self-serving. Any solution is going to require buy-in from all stakeholders, which considering we're talking about our kids safety means all of us. 

 

I'm glad that most everyone here is able to discuss these divisive issues with respect for our LOU brothers and their individual positions. And I'll add that it's laughable to think that respect equates to weakness.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Gator

[Valinote]

Don't worry guys, when President Oprah takes office in 2020 she'll fix everything...

 

Steve D

[Kingfisher06]

Gator, if you really believe change is constituted on behalf of full consensus then you truly don’t understand how change manifests itself. I am aggressive in speech, it’s my nature, big deal. Does not mean my ideas are crap or understanding of societal dynamics are bunk. Actions speak louder than words; an old adage gets old because when it’s true. Time, technology, change are not elements that ought to justify curtailment of our rights. Aggressive men wrote those amendments, it’ll take aggressive men to uphold them, that which you evidently are not. 

[Gill-T]

Intelligent men wrote those amendments, not aggressive.  Your strange usage of the English language make me think you are perhaps a Russian Bot stirring up trouble.

[Kingfisher06]

I, in fact, understand the problem very well fergie. It is the domestication cycle of societies. Animals, in which we are, can be domesticated over 2-3 generations as demonstrated by Belyaev and his foxes, which is beautiful science. Domestic animals by definition are non-aggressive, hence head to a master. Excellent self domestication hypotheses have been brought to the forefront for primates by Dr. Hare at Duke ( bonobos vs chimp studies). I don’t agree with much he has to say, but his studies are fantastic, his interpretations are ****. You see, strong, aggressive men build new societies so people can be free, they flourish upon this freedom, generations pass, they get spoiled, and separated from the struggles of their ancestors and give way to people like sk8man and gator who echo the Political Correctness, which is sharia, albeit Jewish sharia, but nonetheless Sharia-definitely not US Constitutional ideology. Don’t be good little goyim boys. 

[Kingfisher06]

That’s a sad statement Gill-T

[PD Buoy]

7 hours ago, Sk8man said:

s

Well said Les, many great points on a very complicated subject! Going forward I hope there are better solutions as you pointed out.

[bandrus1]

6 minutes ago, Kingfisher06 said:

I, in fact, understand the problem very well fergie. It is the domestication cycle of societies. Animals, in which we are, can be domesticated over 2-3 generations as demonstrated by Belyaev and his foxes, which is beautiful science. Domestic animals by definition are non-aggressive, hence head to a master. Excellent self domestication hypotheses have been brought to the forefront for primates by Dr. Hare at Duke ( bonobos vs chimp studies). I don’t agree with much he has to say, but his studies are fantastic, his interpretations are ****. You see, strong, aggressive men build new societies so people can be free, they flourish upon this freedom, generations pass, they get spoiled, and separated from the struggles of their ancestors and give way to people like sk8man and gator who echo the Political Correctness, which is sharia, albeit Jewish sharia, but nonetheless Sharia-definitely not US Constitutional ideology. Don’t be good little goyim boys. 

 

 

We got a live one folks