2009 Pro Am Rule Changes

[Fishtails]

Yesterday I had the opportunity to participate in some lengthly discussions with both Dave Turner and Chris Kenyon about the 2009 Pro Am (armature) rules. There are talks on the table of making some radical changes in the armature division for 2009. The Pro division will be staying the same, with no major changes that I am aware of.

I'm not at liberty to discuss the current proposal on the possible changes in the Am division, but after hearing it I was asked for my opinion and how I thought It may be accepted by the Am teams. My opinion Is It won't go over well at all. I can say this about the proposed changes....If the new rules went through as anything closely resembling what is currently proposed, my team has agreed among us that we will move to the Pro division. There is also "talk" of eliminating the challenge cup for the Armature division. I personally would be disappointed If that happens.

Now, the idea behind the change is to try and simplify the Am division and draw in more teams. The committee wants to get more teams involved without making more work for themselves. They do a great job and I know they are trying their best. I am grateful for all their hard work. The committee would like our input on possible changes in the Am format to draw in more Am teams. Their current proposal will push some of us to the pro division because the am division will become very "amateurish" and no longer resemble the events we have come to love. I'm sure some would live with it, a few will embrace it and some will quit fishing them altogether.

So please give your ideas on how to implement change that would be designed to grow the Am division and draw new teams without complicating the event for those In charge. Also, for those who don't fish the Pro Am, tell us why you don't fish them? What keeps you away and what would need to happen to peek your interest and get you involved.

I will then forward your Ideas and opinions to Dave Turner.

Thanks....I will follow up with my proposal.

[Gill-T]

I like the current format. Things I would like to see changed is the "no-cull rule" for the Niagara and Orleans Co. legs. The water is cold enough to allow release of fish....period! If you were trying to garner more teams, I would think allowing same day sign-up at the captain's meeting. I know distributing observers in short notice is difficult.....but possible. Charge teams more for the late entrance, less for early entrance.

[Fishtails]

While talking with Dave and Chris, and listening to their reasoning for considering a "revamping" of the Armature division, I countered with a different plan that I think would be a good alternative, while keeping the current Am division unchanged. I'm not sure how they felt about my suggestion, but they listened.

My Proposed changes were as follows:

Pro Division stays "as Is" with the entry fee still @ $500 with no major rule changes

Current Armature division is renamed Semi Pro Division with an entry fee of $300 and no major rule changes from the "current" Pro Am rules.

To draw new entrants:

A "new" Armature division is added to the event, with an entry fee of $100.

No Observer and no boat size restrictions in this division. This division would be simple with very limited rules. It could be a "Biggest fish" division with prize money going out to the winners of both day one AND day two, with a trophy and prizes going to the overall big fish winner of the event as well. I propose the teams should consist of three team members, though I'm sure two man teams would be acceptable.

That's my "basic" idea of how we can get more teams involved, without dismantling the current structure.

Please feel free to add to this proposal...or post your own thoughts and/or Ideas that the committee can consider over the winter.

[Iceman]

I am against having a stranger on my boat as an observer. The horror stories of hung over street bums showing up for duty in that condition keep me out of the Pro-Am's. The last thing I need is somone who reeks, yacking up all over my boat & needing help!!! Fishing is too important to go this route. I am all over the LOC though & feel that their format (after they cleaned up the cheaters) is very workable. Maybe the Pro-Am' will change the requirement, or are they worried that they could not control the cheating???? Why the need for the observer?

[goin deep]

I agree with Iceman...Having an observer keeps me out of the Pro Ams also. I understand observers help keep the cheating down. Like Rod said, make the amature class now be a semi pro class and then have a "NEW" amature class that doesn't require an observer. Maybe have a Pro class, a semi pro class and an amature class. The new amature class would be only able to win trophys. Hopefully with no money to win, people would be less tempted to cheat.

Brian(Goin Deep)

[Gill-T]

The observer thing does suck. With today's gas prices, adding $60-$100 of gas money reimbursement that we pay our observers added to the entry fee, slip fee, ice, food, travel costs etc. I am not for increasing the entry fee to what you are proposing Rod. If you want more entrants.....lower it to $200. Maybe, instead of an observer, arrangements can be made by random draw that a representative of team #1 pre-checks team #2's boat and cooler before leaving the dock? You would have to do away with the six-rod rule (ok by me) because you could not inforce it. I would also like to see a "masters" side event or separate tournament (Rochester?) where competitors have to fish for all the major species and weigh the biggest representative of their catch (cooler culling). So the team that puts the biggest combined score for salmon, steelhead, brown, and.....yes lakers. A true testament to overall fishing skill. You would maybe push back weigh-in to 3:30 because of the extra traveling involved to target all species.

[skipper19]

Finding an observer was not a problem.....UNTIL they found out they would have to go on another strange boat with who knows who....I can relate to that as I would feel the same if a friend asked me to go in the tournament and then be put in the barrel to be picked up by someone else. It's just a comfort thing and if you never went in a tournament like this it is a little disconcerting to learn your getting separated....so I believe in the idea to remove the requirement for the observer and I like Gill-t's idea of a rep from the other teams to do a cooler check...keep up the discusion because I think this WILL lead to a lot more entries in the tournament and please try to keep the entry fees in this galaxy...thanks Mark

[W.W.IV.]

Way would you pay $100 to fish for a trophy?

[Fish Magnet]

I have fished during the Oswego Pro-Am for the last 3 years and have caught enough fish to have been in the money, but I will not enter because of the observer rule. I would be more than happy to enter the tournaments if there was no observer.

[Fishtails]

Great....Keep it coming guys!! Every opinion counts and this Is our chance to make a difference. The Pro Am committee wants to hear from us!!

My .02, I really don't think the entry fee Is a big Issue for the regulars. If It were, you would not have seen the amount of boats enter the Friday Pre Derby that did. Many teams threw In the Extra $100 without batting an eye!! Your team was maybe one of the fewer teams that opted out Gill T. In the FHC, out of (I believe) 70 teams, EVERY single team choose to pay the extra optional $$ for big fish award....EVERY TEAM!! Lowering the entry fee is probably not gonna happen, but It doesn't have to go up either. Just one suggestion among many. I may be wrong, but I think the crowd of "regulars" that would fish the Semi Pro would support $50 more to increase the return.....I may be totally off base on that though, I don't know? Let's not forget.....The Pro Am Is 100% payout.

[skipper19]

A question...what sepatates the pro and am divisions?....is it the entry fee and payout structure?...or is it a requirement of the captain and crew as in charter or for hire profesionals?....Just trying to make sense of the reason for $500 entry versus $100 entry...I wasn't aware there was a differece in the entry fee for the two divisions...$500 WHEW!...$100 is fashonable with me and my Lyntuckians...optional largest fish of the day for each day would be a good toss in for an extra $100.

Thanks, Mark

[HIGHWAY]

Just take a look at the Scotty King of The Lake Series. Biggest payout on Lake Ontario and NO Observers! 3 days of fishing and not one problem or protests. Use the lie detector for the winners. Simple as can be. I had the pleasure of taking the test at the end of the tournament. If you don't cheat or lie there shouldn't be a problem. Another rule to be changed should be water boundries. Who gives a rats ass if you fish American or Canadian waters. As long as you are prepared with correct permits shouldn't be a big deal!!

[Billy V]

Just tell me what the rules are and when to be there!

[Fishtails]

Mark....As it stands, entry fee Is $500 for pro and $250 for Am. Any team with a licensed captain must fish pro. However, it is not required you have a captains lic. to fish pro.....any team can fish pro.

It's simple math...higher entry fee $$ = more prize $$. It separates it from just being just another tourney and thus far has made the Pro Ams the class tournament series of the south shore....thus far!!

It's funny....I said during a similar discussion last year to get rid of the observer and guys baulked that everyone would cheat! What a difference a year makes. Heck....as long as their was a lie detector test I think that would be great! We all know getting observers sucks! I had the observer from hell In Oswego last year. I don't see why that would be a big deal, since Dave Chilson Is Involved with the pro ams.

[Time Out]

water boundaries should be eliminated for the tournaments. I know a boat that ran to Braddocks from sodus, so from Niagra that would be well into Canada by about thirty miles. Take the border out of the equation. Gauranteed am pay outs would help attract more people to certain ports too. One port last year had a lot of am money used for the pro pay out.

With the exception of the pay outs, I personally dont have any problems with the way that they are being formated now. If things change, Ill still fish them, whatever they may be.

[FLXTroutman]

I can chime in as an observer in the past for Yankee Troller. Rick actually had 2 guys observe so one day you fish and one day you observe. (Not a bad way to do it IMO) I actually found it fun and informative, different teams fish different techniques. In '05 I met Glen from Spoonfed & Clarke aka Waterlogged the first year and they were nice people and good fisherman. The Yankee is a great boat and Rick, Craig and Rich are nice guys, talented, and funny (they could have their own fishing show). In '06 I went on Lil Bit CraZ and those guys were great, fun boat and in '08 Todd and his wife won the LOC cash in the Summer Derby (I think it was summer). In '07 Yankee had a friend observe both days, and the boat he was on was like just a bunch of guys headed for a fun day out on the lake. I won't go into details but let's say they were prepared.

skipper I'm no expert but I believe the entry fee difference is made up in the first place prize money, ask the Yankee the year he went pro we did poor at the Niagara then at the Orleans he won first place I believe $5000 in cash and $5000 in prizes. Amateur pays $2500 cash $2500 prizes just ask Screamer. In fact, I would observe for Screamer and pay him just to observe if I was newbie because you would certainly learn more than you could imagine.

[spoonfed-1]

The pro-ams where built up and stuctured to be the most prestiges tournament on the lake. That is why my team goes through the serious expense and travel to fish them. We got enough DERBYS. Lets stop trying to turn this tournament into a derby. Got to have observers to keep an even playing field for all involved. The lake cup is THE ultimate prize. My opinion is lets leave this one alone and continue those prestiges pro-am accomplishments.

It's also my opinion that the people who fish these pro-ams are top notch

sportsmen as well as fishermen. I have fished quite a few of these events and 99% of our observers were very good people. Usually people that are looking to learn new things to improve on there own fishing skills. I guess I could see adding another division and monitor how it would effect the quality of the experience but I hope they don't screw up the amateur division any more.

Glen

[Time Out]

Gotta agree with Glen. Have to keep this tournament in a league of its own. The cup is the ultimate prize. I would assume the reason for possible elimination of the cup is a lack of participation??? Its still important to the teams that enter it and not really about the money since it isnt much.

Jeff

Cold Water Affair

[Jeff J]

I am in agreement with Glen and Rod. I had the opportunity to fish 2 of the Proams with Rod this past year and had a blast. I look forward to next year and hopefully continued success. I do not want to see them changed much!! I totally agree with Glen that these are more than a derby and should remain that way. I agree with Rod that if they want to make it easier and attract more am teams, rename the current am division to semi-pro and make a new am division and make it simpler and less expensive. I think that if observers are eliminated, you would want to have the winners take a lie detector test, this way no one should doubt the standings. I think that eliminating or changing the Lake Cup for both divisions would be a huge mistake. This is like the Super Bowl of these tournaments and it should remain as is!!! Hopefully more ideas and suggestions will come and hopefully the people in charge will listen and look at these closely.

Jeff

[Penn yan 88]

keep it the same. I have heard some stories about observers but have been lucky to never have a problem. I think for the most part % wise the problems are low. I think observers are needed. Keep the rules the same. If it is not broke don't fix it.

[rustyrat]

I would just like to cull for the niagara. The water is plenty cold enough. I ran all the way to the bar and was limited by 8:00 with 1 good one and 4 dinks (19 inchers). Crap I'm all the way out there and into fish, then i have to quit fishing. I spent how much? to fish for 2 hours? It sucked didn't it Glen!

The rest of the format is just fine with me.

RR

[Fishtails]

Information you should all know....I have been assured the Pro Am committee (while silent) Is following this thread, and I quote " with great interest in the comments that have been coming in". So again....now Is the time to voice your opinions....not after the rules are set.

Also....So far the feedback has been great....so try your best to stay on subject to keep this within It's intended context. That means Please read the first, then subsequent postings.

I will not be able to continue following this very closely, as I have a fishing tournament to prepare for. Lets help the committee get new teams In the Pro Ams (which seems to be the goal) while still keeping It the best tournament on the South shore of lake Ontario!!

[Penn yan 88]

Rustyrat, i do agree with you that we should be able to cull, that was the change i did not like from the previous year. Besides that I think everything should stay the same.

[Chromeslayer]

would like to see the culling rule changed as well.... drastic rule change is prolly gunna cause me to not fish the pro ams anymore.. with state side scotty tourny why not take my $250 entry to that? 25grand 1st place payout sounds alot more appealing to me!

[spoonfed-1]

I am also in favor of bringing back the culling rule. Especially after the reduced limit of 6 fish. If the no cull is kept the limit should be raised back up to 9. Let the winners rely on skill to take the prize as opposed to luck.

Other than that I thought the proams were very well run and organized.

Nice job pro-am committee.

Yes Scott, that no cull rule really hurt in Niagara. "Ouch". 45 minutes of fishing on Sunday morning to box out and our weight went down the tubes.

Was a real nice payout for 7th though. $1000.00

Glen