2009 Pro Am Rule Changes

[Gill-T]

We are all conservationists in various degrees. So to have money in these events go towards pen-rearing projects, then we turn around and have to keep 18.5" salmon does not make sense. The Niagara event effects the future King fishery more than any other event because the Niagara Bar is like a rearing ground for a huge percentage of immature salmon (my home port). Culling makes sense.

[Iceman]

The observer requirement is not anything I can support. Do the lie detector thing & you will keep the crooks out!!!! Culling is also a very needed option with all the short fish running around!!!

[fishman08]

I agree with glen...you can change the am side and try to simplify it to bring in more boats and but you will ruin the image of this tournament, plus you have no guarantee that it will even bring in more people. If it is as bad as rod says you'll lose most of the amateur regulars in which case they will really screw up the am side, because that’s a lot of boats to replace

The rules last year with the no culling was unfortunate but how often do teams really have a chance to cull. Other than the niagara tourney there wasn’t really any other chance to cull unless you were brown fishing in Oswego and Sodus on the first day, but face it if you were lucky enough to limit out then you knew your going be in the top 5 if not higher, other than Niagara. Plus Niagara last year was uncharacteristically good.

As for observers, they are needed as it’s obvious from how rumors of cheating were going on the Friday tourney. Yea it was rumors but I have sources that specifically said a few people got drunk and let it slipped. No need to name names if they need the money that bad let them have it, but it’s just proof that observers are needed. Plus little fact that you guys may not know, I have two buddies that are border patrol agents and they are now getting rid of lie detectors for the interviews because they do not work! That’s the U.S. government saying that lie detectors do not work. So we can’t count on those to be the ultimate decision.

Debatable issues should be the culling and the 6 fish limit, 9 was nice and you can still do it with two member teams, because if your using the observers rods there so be no problem using their fish limit too, after all their extra rods are putting fish in the boat.

It’s too bad that we have to discuss this every year. But really when it comes down to it these two rules are always at the center of the problem and really should be set and say that’s the rules, deal with it until there is a major problem, which I don’t think we had this year or years previously. The biggest hindrance will be gas in my opinion anyways, and will always affect attendance, but we didn’t lose too many teams this year from it.

im sorry that its so long but i had to get this of my chest

matt

team oh-baby

[salmonella]

We have spoken about this topic over the past few years at our LOTSA meetings and always come to the same conclusion that the best way to increase participation is to eliminate observers. Some of the Michigan Tournaments do it and get great participation. We would support the assignment of observers on the second day to the top 5 - 10 boats from the first day for added integrity. We also support culling for the Western Pro Ams as we put way too much time and $$ into Pen Rearing to have to kill all of those small Kings. - Joe Yaeger

[Iceman]

Fishman08

With respect to ICE saying that lie detectors don't work!!!!

With all due respect. You are believing anything the government says???? Why??? They probably just want some new toys, gadgets. Further, the border patrol is one of the least trained set of official thugs working for the government, plus their clientele is of a different nature!!!! I can just imagine trying to communicate with Mexicans, Middle Easterners, Russians, etc during a lie detector test LOL!!! With the observer requirement, the tourney will always be limited to the few who are OK with it. It is doomed to shrink in size & go away. Lie detectors are still a staple of all sane law enforcement activities.

[Gill-T]

A well known charter captain in Canada was busted just this year putting lead weights in a fish. Unfortunately, money makes people do stupid things. My suggestion for pre-checking boats before leaving the dock has holes in it. Last year at Sodus, some out of state guys a few slips down from us were pre-fishing and keeping their fish in a garbage bag in their car because they said they eat all the fish they catch. Since you could drive your catch to weigh-in there is room for cheating without an observer watching the cooler. I am not sure what the answer is. Getting an observer sucks, but may be the only legit way to conduct the tournament.

[Chromeslayer]

A well known charter captain in Canada was busted just this year putting lead weights in a fish. Unfortunately, money makes people do stupid things. My suggestion for pre-checking boats before leaving the dock has holes in it. Last year at Sodus, some out of state guys a few slips down from us were pre-fishing and keeping their fish in a garbage bag in their car because they said they eat all the fish they catch. Since you could drive your catch to weigh-in there is room for cheating without an observer watching the cooler. I am not sure what the answer is. Getting an observer sucks, but may be the only legit way to conduct the tournament.

your observer is suppose to stay with your cooler until you hit the scale...

[Gill-T]

Correct, and this team did play by the rules regarding their cooler/observer. My point was there are ample ways to cheat without an observer present.

[Dance the Tides]

How about instead of a culling rule, institute a 21" minimum? They did it at the Little Salmon River Challenge and it seemed to work.

[Gill-T]

You are not gaining much by increasing the limit to 21" from 18.5". The point is you can't cull even if you choose. By allowing culling, teams will be able to release fish even bigger if a good king bite is on. With only a six fish limit, I could see in certain venues if the bite is happening, teams deciding to throw back 7 Lb kings with the hope for bigger fish. Some events you pray for 18.5" fish, but it would be nice to have a CHOICE.

[ladyblugill]

i think the culling rule sucks. the observer rule sucks. and just the fact that everyone is so peronoid about cheating sucks. at least on the pro side with a 12 fish limit you have a better chance to average out. with 6 fish on the ameteur side on the west end leg of it you might as well just round up the team captains and march down to the nearest covenience store for 6 quick picks. i like the prefish 3 fish rule better for the a.m. side. you're 3 biggest fish and that's it. if people want to sneak over to the canadian side so be it. just an opinion from someone who doesn't fish it but has been reading about it and following it on here for the past year.

[Fishtails]

I think the culling issue has been duly noted.

[TrollThruLife]

Trying to find someone to travel alone or with my crew 5 hours from PA to sit on a strangers boat and not get to fish is IMPOSSIBLE! I have tried young, old, rich, poor, doesnt matter.

If there is a NO observer rule I would fish most NY tournaments regularly.

(because of my captains license I am limited to pro division with an observer)

We have spoken about this topic over the past few years at our LOTSA meetings and always come to the same conclusion that the best way to increase participation is to eliminate observers. Some of the Michigan Tournaments do it and get great participation. We would support the assignment of observers on the second day to the top 5 - 10 boats from the first day for added integrity. We also support culling for the Western Pro Ams as we put way too much time and $$ into Pen Rearing to have to kill all of those small Kings. - Joe Yaeger

[Tall Tails]

I have lucked out and have 2 or 3 retired guys to observe for me. We bring the observer with us prefishing and they reel in every fish during prefishing. And we cover lodging and meals. So they get a fishing trip for free and help us out for 2 days. I even have one that does all the cooking back at the campers!!!! Observers are nesacary in the pro div. What we dont need is open communication. THERE I SAID IT!!! LOL. Unfortuanelty the committee likes communication and wont change it. Although it sure would have changed the outcome of at least one tourney this yr. See Everyone in 09!!

[ladyblugill]

you don't need open commuication :?: why are observers needed in the pro but not ametuer division :?: polygraphs work for everyone. from what i've read on here some don't know any retirees and don't have the luxury of fishing the prefish events and need to pay for an observer.

[fishman08]

to solve this observer problem i think the tourney should advertise for observers like they did niagra and oswego, either it be in the paper or w/e, im sure if they started early enough they could find a good number of people interested, which would solve the problem of people not being able to find observers. This past year we were able to get an observer for both tournaments because of the two tourneys getting a list.

As for those who talk negative about the tourney but haven't participated in it. I urge you to try atleast one of these tournaments. I think most will come out of it with a whole new outlook, as these tournaments are extremely well run and the group of guys are great for the most part. If observers are a prob, get in the niagra tourney as penny hartman does a good job recruiting observers. I'm not part of the tourney commity just an average angler that found out whats this tourney is all about 3 years ago.

[Jeff J]

Have to agree with Matt that having a list of local people that want to be observers would sure make it easier for teams wanting to enter tournaments. And I also agree with his statement about trying out a tournament. Most who do will want to do more and the added effort to find an observer will be well worth it. If having to find an observer is a problem for some teams then what has been mentioned about renaming the current am division to semi-pro and forming a new am division with less rules and no observers seems to be the perfect way around this.

Come on guys, this is a way to reccomend changes to the directors of the Proams so open up and give some ideas on what you would like to see changed. If we don't speak up now we should not complain later.

Jeff

[bulldog63]

throw out the observer rule for the amatures, most of these boats are under 24ft. which makes a more comfortable fishing outing just have 3 man teams for the amatures i am sure you would get alot more teams

[Billy V]

I gotta throw my $.02 in here about the observer. I think its necessary to protect the integrity of the tournament and should not be done away with. We've all heard the stories about guys cheating. I'm more than willing to put up with the hassle of an observer to keep the playing field level. Back before I fished in the pro-am's I used to think that it was going to be a pain in the butt to find an observer and that having an observer on board was pointless. But I decided to fish the events anyway. Finding an observer really wasn't hard at all, and in fact, now I have several guys that have expressed an interest in observing. All you gotta do is ask around. Don't let "I can't find an observer" be the reason you don't participate. Shoot, I once posted here that I needed an observer and got 3 or 4 responses immediately from guys who were excited to serve in that capacity.

[A-TOM-MIK]

A MAJORITY OF PRO/AM PARTICIPANTS WHO FREQUENT THIS SITE WOULD VOTE "NO COMMUNICATION" !!!

I believe someone posted a poll a while ago which clearly noted a majority of anglers did not like open communication or preferred not to communicate during tourney hours

It's very sad that the rule was over-turned to satisfy the more important minority who wanted it

That's the way I see it .....

Tom

[L&M]

Tom: I've not said a word on this tread as it is mostly AM guy's and that's a plus too. They have there gripes as well. But you are absolutely right about the open communication deal. After all that's what this was all about when it started. That's what the observer is for. To make sure there is no communication including cell phone's ( except an emergency) & everything is done according to the rules that are set. Open com. just mean;s your fishing as yo would everyday. Think about it: It's all about working at it and doing your own thing out there and see who come's out on top.

[bulldog63]

what integrity i personally saw a charter capt. take a 16or 17 in. salmon lay it on the deck and stretch it to 19 in. while the observer watched you could hear the bones crunching. i also saw an observer stagger off another boat 2 beers in hand if people need to cheat TO WIN more power to them i just feel you would get more teams to compete without the observer rule

[Tall Tails]

THANK YOU TOM!!! Glad most of us are on the same page!!!!!!!

[MyTurn]

My vote is to allow culling for Niagara and eliminate the observer for day 1, and put observers on the top 10 boats for day 2.

Most BBS software enable putting up a poll, maybe the moderator of this forum could do one for the issues that have been raised in this thread.

[A-TOM-MIK]

My Turn:

Polls will not over-turn decisions that aren't of the committees liking, that has been proven !!

It is certain excuses will follow as to why a majority decision from a poll will not become a rule !!

Its been proven from past polls !!

Unless comity members are now willing to favor a wider variety of participants and lose the excuses that followed last time favoring their own decisions?

Tom