2009 Pro Am Rule Changes

[MyTurn]

I fully agree with you Glen. In my opinion, the observer is the ONLY way to guarantee the integrity of the Pro-Am's. And in my experience, finding an observer has absolutely NOT been a problem.

I don't disagree that the observer CAN HELP maintain the integrity of the tournament. However to say that it GUARANTEES the integrity of the tournament is just not so per my actual experiences.

Also, to say that that having observers is the ONLY way to ensure integrity of a tournament is to say that tounaments that don't have them (such as the Scotty) do not have integrity, which is a statement that many people including myself would disagree with.

The observer issue crops up every year when the fishing is done and we get bored. The culling issue was a big deal at Niagara this year because lots of us got stuck with dinks and were done by 9 AM. (Next year could easily be different due to Niagara being 1 week later)

Getting back to the original purpose of this discussion, how to increase AM participation, I think several things should be kept in mind:

#0 Think of entrants as customers.

#1 Don't alienate existing customers (past participants)

#2 Rules STABILITY. Don't radicaly change them every year to find the magic bullet or chances are you will do #1 (above)

#3 Look at what other tournaments do rules wise and consider their experiences. (How the heck do the Michigan tournaments get so many entrants?)

#4 make gradual or small rules adjustments based on widespread gathering of input from existing customers and potential customers. Turn a discussion like this into a carefully constructed poll, and run it here, on GLA, Spoonpullers, and elsewere. Also have clubs such as LOTSA run the poll at meetings or on our web site.

[unsub]

I’ve fished several Pro-Ams as a participant in the Pro division over the past few years and finally put together an Am team on my own for one tournament last year. For the Am tourney we originally had some difficulty getting an observer lined up and had several back out. With less than a week’s time left before the tournament, I put a post up on this board and had someone call in less than ten minutes. I guess my point is that finding someone can be frustrating and it adds an element of additional responsibility to the coordination, but in the end it turned out to be not that hard. It was just a matter of knowing where to look. All in all, I’ve met a lot of great people in these tournaments through the observer swap and consider it one of the benefits. That said, here’s my input.

Observers – keep them

Communication – get rid of it

Fish – keep Ams at 6

Boundaries – US and Canada

Lie Detector – No problem

Entry fee/ payout – leave as is

FUN – have more of it

[Jeff J]

Have to agree with My Turn. Observers don't guarantee the intregity of the tournaments but I think having observers is as close to it as you can get. Nothing is guaranteed and if someone wants to cheat bad enough they will figure out how to do it. I think that the observers should remain. Probably wouldn't need a lie detector test if the observers are present.

I could go either way on the communication rule.

I favor culling at the Niagara or raising the fish limit back to 9.

Any changes to the existing rules should be well thought out and introduced slowly to see how they work out.

Move the current am division to semi-pro and form a new am division and get rid of the rules that some people don't like. Maybe some of these teams will move up to the other divisions once they are involved in the Proams and see how much fun they are.

I totally agree on having more fun!!!!

Jeff

[Chromeslayer]

any major rule change should be carefully thought out .. with 2 scotty tournys on the US side this year.. and ALOT of people are excited to have them here .. could really make or break the proam.. there are some good suggestions and some off the wall ones as well.. hopefully the proam committee will do what is needed to keep a GOOD thing going!

[spoonfed-1]

Well put Chromeslayer.

Glen

[Iceman]

I will be looking into the two state side Scotty tourney's this year. The observer rule is unacceptable to me. I will not have a stranger on my boat! Just the fact that there are so few people fishing the Pro -Am's make them unprestigeous from my perspective. There are normally over 5,000 participants in the LOC derbies, making them much harder to win, & in my eyes much more rewarding/prestigeous. The Pro Am's seem to be filled with people who think their fishing skills are better than most other folks (snobbery???). Bring on the Spring LOC as well!!!! Second & 11th place salmon division last year for my boat. Third in the salmon division the year before (Spring LOC). I feel that I could compete in the Pro-Am, but won't, because of the observer rule!

[bulldog63]

from what i read on these posts most people that DO NOT enter the pro - am is based on the observer rule personally i DO NOT agree with it either you want more teams try 1 year without it.

[rustyrat]

I will be looking into the two state side Scotty tourney's this year. The observer rule is unacceptable to me. I will not have a stranger on my boat! Just the fact that there are so few people fishing the Pro -Am's make them unprestigeous from my perspective. There are normally over 5,000 participants in the LOC derbies, making them much harder to win, & in my eyes much more rewarding/prestigeous. The Pro Am's seem to be filled with people who think their fishing skills are better than most other folks (snobbery???). Bring on the Spring LOC as well!!!! Second & 11th place salmon division last year for my boat. Third in the salmon division the year before (Spring LOC). I feel that I could compete in the Pro-Am, but won't, because of the observer rule!

Sorry iceman you are wrong. I have placed(or someone on my boat) in the LOC every year for the past 7 years and placing in the money for the pro am is very difficult. You have to put 2 excellent days of fishing back to back. The weather constantly changes, the fish move making it a huge challenge. Thats what seperates the winners from the other guys. Most of the time, I'm the other guys.

When fishing the LOC, I take the week off and can search for the fish. Not so in the pro am due to the time constraints. Its not easy! We have never had problems with observers so you guys chirpin about not fishing because of the observer rule are just making excuses.

RR

[Iceman]

RR;

Everyone has their opinion, & I stated mine. I have fished the same days of the ProAm' several times, both days from several ports & my cooler would have brought money. So I say to you, you are wrong!!! The observer thing is a severe deterant to the competition. How many people are actually in the ProAm's???

[Tim Bromund]

Just to piggyback on rustyrats post. Iceman, you cannot compare a derby (LOC) to a tournament. They are completely different animals. Tournaments really do take a lot more skill to do well in. In a Derby, you are out there putting your time in, hoping to luck into 1 good fish. As RR stated, in a tournament you have to bring good boxes in back to back days, and having fished both the Scottys and the Pro Am's, I can tell you that is NOT easy to do. Even whern the fishing was stupid simple such as the Niagara pro am last year when everyone was boxing out with dinks, some boats still managed to bring in boxes of heavy fish (not us ). Those are the the conditions that really separate the men from the boys. Call it snobbery if you like, but tournaments are the best way to judge your skills against your fellow anglers. Anyone can get lucky and pop into a single big fish over the course of 10 days, 5 weeks etc.

I've fished scottys (no observers) and pro-ams (observers) and don't have a preference either way. I haven't had any issues with the observers on my boat, but it wouldn't bother me if ther were eliminated either. It's not a deal breaker for me.

Tim

[Just Cover]

Like I said before the observer can be eliminated with the lie detector test. Some people's boats are not big enough to have an observer. If you are caught cheating your band for life...Period

I understand the observer for the locals and why they like it, but if you are driving a long way the person you bring wants to fish not be on another boat. 99% of other tournaments use the lie detector and yes they work.

[Iceman]

Still waiting for an answer, how many people are in the Pro Am's???????????????

Tim B.

We have disagreed in the past, so I am not surprised we do this time. As I said above, I have fished the same days as the Pro Am's from Oswego & Fairhaven, & have had coolers that would have been in the money. I can make yor argument against you by saying that the charter captains are on the fish daily leading up to the Pro Am's & have a great deal of information about what & where & how to get a big cooler. Therefore they are much mopre likely to be on the fish right away, & dominate at the weigh in's.

[muskybob]

Therefore they are much mopre likely to be on the fish right away, & dominate at the weigh in's.

That's not a fair statement at all. I fished all 4 ProAms this year in the Am division and our team outfished a good number of the Pro teams in 3 of them. While we didn't finish in the big money, we still did better than most. Like Tim said, it's a matter of skill and not just chance to weigh in a good box. Our team wasn't the only Am team to do better than some of the Pros. Just because a Pro team member has the word Capt. before one of the names doesn't necessarily mean they have an advantage. Matter of fact they have it harder because they have to boat 12 fish compared to 6 on the Ams. Please reconsider & join us in the ProAms next year. It's a great way to meet many of the guys on this site and others and a heck of a great time.

[rustyrat]

Put your money where you mouth is Iceman! lol

88 teams in the Niagar pro am this year. I think the breakdown was 53 pro and 35 am. I've beat many a pro even without being in the money too Bob!

RR

[Jeff J]

Iceman

There were 88 teams in the Niagara, 55 at Orleans, and 62 at Oswego.

The proam web page did not give the number of teams for Sodus, but I imagine that they were similiar. So there is a 50 to 60 team average in the 4 tournaments. I have fished some of the Proams and have to agree that putting 2 good boxes of fish together is not as easy as it sounds. You have to do it 2 days in a row, can't leave till a specific time, can't fish till 6am, and have to be back in by 2.

Give them a try and you will see that they are alot of fun!!

Jeff

[Iceman]

Musky;

What is not fair about my statement??? It is a fact that the charter captains (well at least the good ones) are on the fish daily & know how, when & where to fish. From my recollection the top Pro teams had much larger coolers than the Am's for the most part. Don't understand your comment???? Sounds like you are just trying to toot your own horn???? What is your point????

RR

Probably less than 300 pro anglers, & less than 200 for the Am's, for an approximate total of 500 competitors. Much smaller amount of competition than the LOC, just as I thought!

[L&M]

:roll:

[Jeff J]

Comparing the Pro and Am teams' numbers is not fair. the Pro teams can box 12 fish at 10 points per fish and a point per pound. The Ams can only box 6 fish. Our team has beaten many Pro teams and the end even though we can only keep half as many fish.

[rustyrat]

I'm with you Hank! :roll:

[muskybob]

Iceman, if you can't read what I said and understand it I'm not going to explain it to you. Others seemed to get my drift. From your posts I see you are looking for an arguement but I'm not going to bite. Please try to keep your comments constructive and to the point. As far as I'm concerned, end of discussion. :roll:

[Iceman]

So musky, its kind of like what others have said, the rules are controlled by a group that does not take kindly to suggestions from others. Seems like you have all the control & can end a discussion when you want to. Nice democratic approach. I have seen this before from you!

[jason]

this post is starting to get stupid. now we are up to 6 pages of repeats and 1 page of biching and arguing. let it die, everyone had some good and some bad opinions.

i do have to agree that the pro am's are harder then the loc. you have a time limit. the loc u can start fishing before dark and fish all day where the pro am you cant start fishing until 6 am and depending where your at you have to make a run back to get in the peir by 2 pm.

loc you can pick and choose you catches. pro am's you have to measure the fish and decide whether to keep it or not because it in the 1/2" limit.

no matter what the rules i can tell you this, our team will fish all the pro-am's again this yr.

[L&M]

Musky is not ending anything. He's simply stating that he is done discussing it with you as I think a few others are. Try to get your fact's straight before you post would be my recommendation.

[Tall Tails]

The old Derby V.S. Tournament discussion!! Two completely different competitions.

Try a tournament and see if you like it before you bash it!!!!!

This thread is changing focus which I think Fishtails didnt want to happen by starting it. I guess we all knew it would.

See everyone in 09!!

[muskybob]

And mine. I should have said end of discussion on my part, for Iceman in particular. There, did you understand that part? Send me a PM if you wish to discuss this further.