2009 Pro Am Rule Changes

[Time Out]

Any news yet?

Jeff

[Fishtails]

Was wondering this myself? I emailed Dave a month ago but got no response, so I assume there was nothing to tell us at that point. Anyone hear anything?

[spoonfed-1]

Last year it wasn't until probably the middle of March before they finalized the rule changes. Hope they do it soon so I can put in for the time off of work.... Or not.

Glen

[Iceman]

Kind of like the old conundrum, "if a tree falls in the forest & there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound"?

[3dfx]

one can only imagine what the comitte is attempting to come up with. we have heard of a new division for the amatuers and we have also heard of the "possibility" of a new tournament on monday with a (in my opinion) pseudo number of boats commited to participating. (just what the fishery needs more dead fish!)What we haven't heard about is what most are asking for, RULE CHANGES. i for one just wonder why this "new" tournament following the pro/am is only being held in oswego and niagara? could it be that these are also two ports where the upcoming scotty has listed as venues? why wouldnt they have them at the oak or sodus? hmmmm... sounds like a possible diversion to me. (HOPEFULLY i am wrong)! i will reinforce that i am a former pro/am participant that fished the first ones in niagara and oswego and for many years following until the the frustrations set in. i do have a team and we ARE going to fish these scotty's! if they are half as good as what many of the reputable posters on this site indicate this coming tournament season should be interesting and exciting. as the other post informally announcing the king of the lake series states 20k as the guarnteed first place my team is looking forward to compete in a tournament with fair and consistent rules for ALL with the opportunity to win the big cash payout as an amature boat. one can also only imagine what the boys in wilson are going to come up with when hosting this event! cmon spring! Dave

[LOC Derby]

If you can pick up a copy of the LOC Derby News, there is a two page write up on some of the changes and the application for the pro am tournaments.

Dave Chilson

[mrhappy]

After reading this thread it is clear that the open communication rule is not very popular with most of us for reasons that we are aware of and have already been commented on. I have a suggestion that may be looked at to assit in this issue. As I undersatnd one of the reasons for instituting this rule was #1 it was difficult to enforce no communication, I have to say BS. We as participants know that it frankly is enforcable for the most part! The reality is cheaters will always find a way to cheat! The #2 reason from what has been discussed in the past, and I must confess is a great idea if it was actually followed up on rather then being lipservice, was to hopefully convince a tele -communication company to sponsor the event while promoting their companies products and services. In the true spirit of a Pro/Am, a pro is teamed up with an amateur participant, at least those that I have participated in. Here is my suggestion, this should not be very difficult to pull-off either. At the observers meeting prior to observer assignments being called one Pro boats number will be randomly drawn and then an Am boat will be randomly drawn, then the following teams called will again pull boats numers then on and on....... These two boats would be able to communicate with each other and only with each other! The way it would be enforced is the observers held THE ONLY POWERED UP CELL PHONE on the boat and they would answer insuring its the perspective teams boat assignment. Again, nothing is perfect and cheaters will find a way to cheat regardless!!!!!!! Yes it may take up a bit more time at an already grueling observers meeting but it would perhaps fix what we all despise and also promote sportsmanship! After all isn't this what it should be all about?

Another small comment I would like to make here is regarding this potential new tournamnet on the Monday following the Pro/Ams in Niagara and Oswego. It was listed that the possible entry fees being around $1000.00. I for one must admit that our team would be quite concerned that another "select few" participants or organizers would be able to review all of the Pro/Am teams score sheets which list the exact time, waypoints, estimated size and bait the fish was caught on prior to Monday morning! Is there positively a way to prevent that? Here we go again?!?!?!?

[Shade]

ELIMINATE OBSERVER - Brighter and larger flags so we can see at a distance the tournament boats and police them ourselves.

CHANGE PRIZE STRUCTURE - have prizes for largest Fish each day, and 3 fish weight each day....Biggest fish for tournament and most weight based on a 6 fish max each day. Salmon Only The problem is if you only catch 3 -4 fish the first day you are basically out of the tournament. By having a daily prize, you can weight one, two or three fish max and have a chance at some dollors. All the fish that are in the lead stay at the weight in area and are checked if they win. In the walleye Tournament in Dunkirk they have a Biologist from the DEC and they check the fish and can tell what waters the fish came from. Last year a team got caught with walleye caught and brought down from Ohio.

MOVE THE TOURNAMENT DATE FOR NIAGARA - either the first or second week in June. I realize the Charter Captains have clients but what is to say we have to have both ternaments at the same time? The Nigara tournament gets to crowded with everyone fishing between 50' and 150 feet and boats trolling North/ South and others going East/West with these charters running 8 poles and outriggers and boards 100' from their boats.

[ray koziatek]

Shade ,tourny fishing can sometimes get tight if youve done your home work and found a secret hot spot good chances are others know of this area thats why their there most of the time tho guys have a tendency to do as i call ""BOAT FISH"" they see a boat pulling in fish and think they gotta get right in there to catch a fish when in actually the fish are most everywhere and lures,presentation,speed ,angle of approach,depth are more factors in that boat catching fish rather than being on the HOT spot of the lake. ..trust me there is a reason boats fish a school of fish fron diff angles,post this concern as a question under fish tech.and youll find out why.If your not comfortable with pack fishing just slide out a little or head away from them. I think the rules were already changed for this year.Also you say eliminate observer ,then say guys got caught cheating,I think the pro/am commitee tries to police our own tournys with observers without bringing in out side babbysitters.tho with my small boat and moter i would like to request a max size to the observer rule another 300 lbs really taxes my small 4cyc moter ...so if anyone on the commitee reads this plese assigne me any petite,single,goodlooking,female observer.... this is for my ability to get it up on plane and get to the hot spot faster ...Thank You..

[Gill-T]

I hope this proposed monday "caddilac" tournament is not going to dip into the weekends Pro/Am payout money.

[Tall Tails]

Gill-T,

It wont dip into the money thats why it is a 1000.00, 100% payout event. The rest I cant even comment on. If you dont like the structure of the Tournament then dont fish it. Lets not turn this into a Derby as some are suggesting.

If you dont like it dont fish it. These tournys are 2 day events for a reason they award for consistency!!!

[get it wet]

Another small comment I would like to make here is regarding this potential new tournamnet on the Monday following the Pro/Ams in Niagara and Oswego. It was listed that the possible entry fees being around $1000.00. I for one must admit that our team would be quite concerned that another "select few" participants or organizers would be able to review all of the Pro/Am teams score sheets which list the exact time, waypoints, estimated size and bait the fish was caught on prior to Monday morning! Is there positively a way to prevent that? Here we go again?!?!?!?

This was posted earlier.

I think you have a point. To have this kind of entry fee and dollars involved it is only right that the committee gives every team the same info available. Really though, why do we have to tell the commitee where and how we have caught our fish. If we have observers shouldn't they have all the say in how and why things are on the boat.

Please do not take this in a wrong way, I am not saying they are cheating. Just simply saying that there is a disadvantage if you don't see the info.

Yvan

[Fishtails]

I emailed Dave Turner this morning and he was kind enough to get right back to us with this response:

"You can expect some final word on this years events very soon. I will try to get everybody to sign off by the end of the week but I can't promise".

So, as of this moment the rules have not been finalized.

[3dfx]

look guys, unfortunately with the current pro/am format observers are necessary to a point. believe me my team was not fond of them especially after providing a reliable and responsible observer only to have our assigned observer show up late and drunk off his fanny throwing up or sleping all day, only to wake up when we asked him to document fish. back then you did not have to document waypoints, these folks didn't know where we were, we could have been in scotchbonnet for all he knew. we did report it to the "commitee" and they addressed it at the captains meeting. i haven't fished the event for many years but i would be comfortable assuming that these types of incidents are still occuring. as some here have indicated and i absolutley agree, the observers don't make that big of a difference when it comes right down to it. weather it be a border infraction or an undersized fish, if you have fished this event especially in niagara you have had the opportunity to witness one of these entertaining expositions. the outcome? depends on who you are, who you know on the commite! this often occured right in front of the gallery so all could witness. so, observers are unfortunately needed with the current rules mainly to keep the honest people honest. i thought the whole theroy behind this thread was rule changes? take a look back here and rethink why many folks in the know believe the rules were changed again in the am division, mees thinks a particular am boat or two were in the crosshairs of the commitee and they just didn't have a pair big enough to make the appropriate rule changes. again sorry for my posts but enough is enough. imho if this scotty event wasn't breathing down the back of the pro/am it would have been status quo. Dave

[Iceman]

Kind of like the old conundrum, "if a tree falls in the forest & there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound"?

Just had to repeat myself.

[spoonfed-1]

I would NOT take a drunk or otherwise incapacitated observer on my boat. I would have been on the phone and let the commitee know this and demanded the team forefit a team member in his or her place. This is not only a hinderence but is a definate safety

violation. This demand would have been repeated at the paper work turn in point BEFORE it was time to leave the dock. Not really rocket science if you catch my drift.

Seeing as how it has happened the teams should be warned of this type of thing at the captains meeting. It's got to be up to the teams to supply a reliable observer or pay the price. I believe this would eliminate this type of thing.

Lets not forget the Capt. is responsible for what goes on on the boat.

Glen

[Hookedup]

Hi Rod, This post should have a warning I just finished all 10 pages. Sean

[3dfx]

hookedup wrote

Hi Rod, This post should have a warning I just finished all 10 pages. Sean

Sean - i concur, it does make for some entertaining as well as informative reading! what these 10 pages also seem to indicate is there are a number of anglers here that are very passionate about this "prestigeous" event positively or negatively. it is no secret where my opinion falls. it does show that there are a fair number on this site (and who knows how many not on this site) that are or have been on the fence regarding participating in this tourney based on what many feel are frequent unfair rule changes. i think most if not all the banter is intended to be suggestions or constructive critisim, my posts included. i think one of the problems here is that many of the guys here are relatively new (say 7 10 yrs) to fishing the pro/ams and have not been privy to the debates regarding the same issues taking place over and over! the fact with me is as a partcipant from the beginning that these issues come up over and over and a certian few individuals come up with ficticious reasons, laws or federal guidelines on why a rule can't be changed! however when you have one (and i must admit one of the select few) alone you can never get a straight answer just more BS. i myself can only speak of the past issues in the niagara area and many of us are familiar with the history there and still to this day people accept status quo. the pro/am is the same old stale event that has only changed when that "select few" feel the need for it to be changed as long as it dosent negatively effect their bottom lines as participants. lets not be niaeve here, the commitee members are participants, whos interests do you think are priorities. againg lets see what takes place now with all of the excitement the scotty is generating! dave

[Paul Czarnecki]

Here we go again.....

The rules will be out very shortly guys. Some minor logistical things are being worked out.

As far as the major changes for this year:

--we have the "old" AM Division back--3 man team taking 9 fish.

--we have added an "Open Division"--very similar to the Friday events from last year.

--Challenge Cup for both Pro and Am.

--the Monday event is a $1000 entry, 100% payback "Big Boys" event. If you think you're good enough....put your money where your mouth is and fish it! Anyone can fish it but it'll cost you a grand and there is only one division--The Big Boys!

Now to the rumors and speculation by the arm chair experts.....

--The Big Boys events were not created because the Scotty events are supposed to be coming to Niagara and Oswego. They were created by two Captains, who for years, have wanted to see a high dollar event on Lake Ontario. Niagara and Oswego were chosen for these events because they have tournaments immediately following them and that was the best way to get teams to stay in town another day and, hopefully, fish the second event in that area. Going before the ProAm events in any port would conflict with the popular Friday event.

--The Big Boys events are 100% payback over 3 places. There are no sponsors and no money will come out of the ProAms. These events are paid for SOLELY by the people that fish them.

Finally....my personal opinion. I'm glad that the ProAms have generated 10 pages of posts. That shows that you guys have passion about tournament fishing. However, EVERY year I have to take several days to address the comments, innuendos, mud slinging and rumor mongering by a few individuals that LOVE to stir up $h#*!

Dave (3dfx), Mr. Happy and others (you know whp you are)---you all sound like intelligent individuals who have valuable contributions to make. Instead of starting all the crap that you do on here why don't you use some of that intelligence and volunteer to serve on a committee. You might be pleasantly surprised at what you'll learn and what you'll be able to contribute. The easiest way to get something changed is to help change it. Hiding behind fictitious screen names and throwing mud from the peanut gallery does not present your case well to anyone and, frankly, makes you look like an ass. Also, if you have something valuable to contribute to a post use your REAL NAME so the rest of us know who we are talking to.

Several of us have been on these committees for a LOT of years. We are getting very tired of doing all the work while still having to deal with the crying and whining from nameless dolts who like to throw darts from the back. I, for one, would like to step down from the two committees I currently serve on and "just fish". However, if no one is there to pick up the ball the events fall apart and that is something I will NOT let happen.

These events are constantly changing because the economy, logistics, communities and PEOPLE are constantly changing. Change is essential for growth (my GOD....I sound like Obama ) but, without individuals to HELP with that growth, it goes nowhere.

If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!

I'm off my soapbox now....continue the bashing and whining

Paul Czarnecki

Free Spirit

[fishman08]

old amateur division is back!!! i've been hoping for this for a long time now…probably the best rule change the committee could have done for the am division...this is going to make the rest of winter go by very slowly!

paul and the rest of the tourney committee, i'd like to thank you for your work, i know you all work very hard to make this tournament go! One question though are the tournament directors from all four going to see if they can make a list before each tourney of interested observers as many commented that it was a good idea.

[Tall Tails]

Thank you Paul!

[spoonfed-1]

Very good news Paul.

Thanks

Glen

[Fishtails]

Thanks Paul!!! All the news Is sounding very positive and It's obvious the committee does listen to us, despite how some may feel.

Should be a great year to look forward to

[ray koziatek]

Rod he was kidding you need to go pro and take spoonfed,lucky enuf,and liq. plummer with you.. Thanks,,,,,,,taking the musk out sunday gonna be a toasty 45 here

[Penn yan 88]

I am not familiar with the old Am rules so you can only have a 3 man team?