Where are all the 20lb Steelhead we used to see

[Trouthunter]

What has happened to all the large steelhead like the 20lb fish we would see on this board are they gone for good

 

[Yankee Troller]

I think (and this is merely my opinion) we are still recovering from the Vitamin B deficiency die off we saw a few years back. A lot of big fish died that fall/winter. However, if you want a shot at one go fish off the North Shore. A majority of our Steelbow hang out over there in the Summer.

[Gill-T]

Steelhead are fat this year. They are just lacking age. We seem to have lost a very important piece of the food web with emerald shiner numbers being decimated after the bad winters of ‘13, ‘14.  The foodweb has dropped lower in the water column as biologists had predicted after  zebra mussel invasion. Current lake conditions favor alewife over shiners so either steelhead will have to learn to chase alewives deeper or subsist on bugs for the first two years of life and grow slow. 

[Trouthunter]

Both you captains make very good points

[bandrus1]

Loss golden shiner

[GAMBLER]

My opinion, we used to see twenty pound steelhead in better numbers before trib fishing gained popularity.


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[Lucky13]

On ‎8‎/‎2‎/‎2018 at 4:52 PM, GAMBLER said:

My opinion, we used to see twenty pound steelhead in better numbers before trib fishing gained popularity.


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But according to the Tributary angler surveys, most steelhead caught in the tributaries are released.   According to the Charter Boat Survey, more than half of the steelhead caught out on the Lake are kept.

 

It will be interesting to find out when all the mid teens kings hit the hatchery whether they are big two year olds, which would say there is lots of bait, or smaller three year olds that have been growing more slowly in the face of less to eat.  We are also not seeing the mid 40's kings anymore, and even 30's seem pretty rare. You can't blame that on increased tributary pressure.

[GAMBLER]

4 minutes ago, Lucky13 said:

But according to the Tributary angler surveys, most steelhead caught in the tributaries are released.   According to the Charter Boat Survey, more than half of the steelhead caught out on the Lake are kept.

 

It will be interesting to find out when all the mid teens kings hit the hatchery whether they are big two year olds, which would say there is lots of bait, or smaller three year olds that have been growing more slowly in the face of less to eat.  We are also not seeing the mid 40's kings anymore, and even 30's seem pretty rare. You can't blame that on increased tributary pressure.

Didn't the survey also say more steelhead were killed on the Tribs compared to the lake?  The C&R beating these fish take in the tribs has to take a toll. 

[Lucky13]

 I've never seem any analysis of LO steelhead that indicates age and prior spawning status of Larger chromers.  West Coast fish don't grow a  lot after returning to the ocean, the large size fish stay off shore for additional years.  Our fish don’t have as far to travel, and no sea lions or seals, so Folks at DEC think they can grow a little more and return, but I think the outsize fish are just ones that stayed out in the soup eating for an additional year.  Many of the ones that got photographed and weighed left the gene pool, and over time maybe we’re developing a smaller strain.  Or they burn more off between meals because the meals are fewer.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Lucky13

[Tall Tails]

1 hour ago, GAMBLER said:

Didn't the survey also say more steelhead were killed on the Tribs compared to the lake?  The C&R beating these fish take in the tribs has to take a toll. 

Spot On Brian!  More Steel killed in tribs then the lake.  What the tribe guys wont ever understand is Steelhead is a by-catch in the lake.  As long as there are Kings to catch the Steelhead will always be around for the tribs unless they kill it for themselves.

[bluegiller]

Spot On Brian!  More Steel killed in tribs then the lake.  What the tribe guys wont ever understand is Steelhead is a by-catch in the lake.  As long as there are Kings to catch the Steelhead will always be around for the tribs unless they kill it for themselves.

I have been fishing lake Ontario since the late 70's and it has changed huge since then. If you don't think it's a forage problem and want to blame trib fishing think of this. I think Yankee troller is right on. And here is more to add to it. It's had now to tell 2 year old and 3 year old salmon apart anymore. And for sure mature salmon are smaller on average then in the hay days of the 80's. And the steelhead are for sure smaller on average, the numbers are down and I am sure that has to die off. But look at the small mouth bass, the browns, the lake trout. Those all have seen increased sizes. I know the zebra muscles changed this lake huge. If you look at the fish that are bigger they tend to feed more near bottom or on gobies. I am not very smart but I can tell you I know it takes food to make fish grow. It seems there is a lot of bait now , but there is some reason the fish are not growing as big. Maybe they have to hunt harder for it bc the water is clearer? It could make them have to spend more energy to catch it. Just all this seems to go back to major over all changes in the water in lake Ontario.

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[GAMBLER]

7 hours ago, bluegiller said:

I have been fishing lake Ontario since the late 70's and it has changed huge since then. If you don't think it's a forage problem and want to blame trib fishing think of this. I think Yankee troller is right on. And here is more to add to it. It's had now to tell 2 year old and 3 year old salmon apart anymore. And for sure mature salmon are smaller on average then in the hay days of the 80's. And the steelhead are for sure smaller on average, the numbers are down and I am sure that has to die off. But look at the small mouth bass, the browns, the lake trout. Those all have seen increased sizes. I know the zebra muscles changed this lake huge. If you look at the fish that are bigger they tend to feed more near bottom or on gobies. I am not very smart but I can tell you I know it takes food to make fish grow. It seems there is a lot of bait now , but there is some reason the fish are not growing as big. Maybe they have to hunt harder for it bc the water is clearer? It could make them have to spend more energy to catch it. Just all this seems to go back to major over all changes in the water in lake Ontario.

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Food is an issue but you can't over look the fact that these fish get hammered in the tribs. Steelhead caught over and over again get stressed.  Twenty years ago, steelhead fishing on the tribs was not nearly as popular. I used to fish the Genesee River in the fall and after the salmon died off, it was a ghost town compared to what it is now.  Everyone says lakers eat a ton of gobies.  Since the gobie invasion, I have cut up a ton of lakers yet I find way more alewife than gobies in them.  The only time I find more gobies than alewife is in April / early may before the bait comes in shore. 

[tuffishooker]

• Lot of interesting comment ; as I saw it the fishing changed dramatically in 1994 with the invasion ? of the zebra mussel : then came the cormorant in huge flocks . NYS must have a better fishery than us in Ontario 20 + pds ? ; my personal best was in 1991 at 15.7 running 50+ trips a year ! Last year we did not get one ! This year they are all small [ OK for the Barbie ] . The leader in the SCG&F summer derby ~ 15 lbs as I remember and some of those guys are out every day !
• ps we have a two rainbow limit daily Ontario .

[Traveling Circus]

I'm sure that both communities(trib and boat) of fishermen contribute to mortality. There are certainly plenty of fish that endure months of pressure in the tribs and "make it out alive". And there are plenty of fish that get released out on the big lake. I fish both out in the lake and in the tribs, and probably about equal amounts of time for each. Personally, I am much more confident in the fish's survival, when I release a trout (brown or rainbow) into a 40 F creek than when I release it into 70 F surface water. 

 

Pointing fingers between communities accomplishes nothing. Limits and regs need to be based on facts, not emotions. 

[GAMBLER]

5 minutes ago, Traveling Circus said:

I'm sure that both communities(trib and boat) of fishermen contribute to mortality. There are certainly plenty of fish that endure months of pressure in the tribs and "make it out alive". And there are plenty of fish that get released out on the big lake. I fish both out in the lake and in the tribs, and probably about equal amounts of time for each. Personally, I am much more confident in the fish's survival, when I release a trout (brown or rainbow) into a 40 F creek than when I release it into 70 F surface water. 

 

Pointing fingers between communities accomplishes nothing. Limits and regs need to be based on facts, not emotions. 

For years, the finger has been pointed at the Lake guys and charter captains.  Trib fishing stressed fish from spawning has to be part of the issue.  Like you, I fish both the tribs and the lake.  I see guys using 4lb. line on a pin rod and fighting a steelhead to exhaustion.  This happens over and over and over again.  I don't care what the water temp is, it can't be good. 

[bluegiller]

Food is an issue but you can't over look the fact that these fish get hammered in the tribs. Steelhead caught over and over again get stressed.  Twenty years ago, steelhead fishing on the tribs was not nearly as popular. I used to fish the Genesee River in the fall and after the salmon died off, it was a ghost town compared to what it is now.  Everyone says lakers eat a ton of gobies.  Since the gobie invasion, I have cut up a ton of lakers yet I find way more alewife than gobies in them.  The only time I find more gobies than alewife is in April / early may before the bait comes in shore. 

I am not saying fishing pressure be it boat , or tribs don't have some thing to do with numbers but size it sure does not And I realize if you catch 10 fish your chances of a really big one is smaller than if you catch 100, but if the only problem is fishing pressure explain the salmon size decreasing on average. It used to be by this time of the year most salmon were over 20lbs and probably half the matures were almost 25 and a lot in the high 20's now your lucky if you catch a mature all year over 25.

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[Silver Fox]

So if the theory of lake guys kill more bows than trib guys is correct, then with all the lake guys fishing salmon this year, the tribs will be loaded with bows this winter. We'll see eh? Or am I way off base with this?
I'm blaming the internet. I've said it ten years ago that it will ruin tribs, ice fishing spots and other very reachable areas that a boat is not needed.

Silverfoxcharters.net

[Sk8man]

This does seem to be an interesting conversation...and I think the title could probably use some clarification. The title would suggest that 20 lb steelies were commonplace at some time in the past. I have fished Lake O (trolling) since the early 1970's and have fished it with some really good fishermen. I have never actually seen a 20 lb. steelhead. I have seen plenty over 10 lbs up into the teens though. I also remember some Cohos being mistaken for steelies in the earlier years

One of the great things about Lake Ontario is it's ability to tolerate a lot of fishing pressure because of it's relatively large expanse and the presence of quite a few tributaries, large scale stocking efforts, and it is something to be fully appreciated and even celebrated. There is plenty of room for everyone and many styles of fishing, but no matter whether fishing the streams or the lake proper - care needs to be maintained by all to insure that the fishery is sustainable. It means great care is needed in releasing undersized  or unwanted consumable fish and it applies to both options. We all have an investment in keeping the fishery viable and vibrant. It doesn't take much imagination to realize what the impact of the poachers and greedy uncaring others can do to this fishery. Rainbows or steelhead can be pretty fragile fish and perhaps even more care and time may be necessary on the release process and this is especially critical in the warmer water.

[Yankee Troller]

14 minutes ago, Sk8man said:

This does seem to be an interesting conversation...and I think the title could probably use some clarification. The title would suggest that 20 lb steelies were commonplace at some time in the past. I have fished Lake O (trolling) since the early 1970's and have fished it with some really good fishermen. I have never actually seen a 20 lb. steelhead. I have seen plenty over 10 lbs up into the teens though.

 

Spot on!

[Lucky13]

58 minutes ago, Silver Fox said:

So if the theory of lake guys kill more bows than trib guys is correct, then with all the lake guys fishing salmon this year, the tribs will be loaded with bows this winter. We'll see eh? Or am I way off base with this?
I'm blaming the internet. I've said it ten years ago that it will ruin tribs, ice fishing spots and other very reachable areas that a boat is not needed.

Silverfoxcharters.net
 

The contention made by Gambler was that the decline in large 'bow attributable to increased popularity of tributary angling.  The data that is out there indicates that 86% of steelhead caught in the Salmon River are released and slightly less than 50% of steelhead reported in the boat survey are released.  Gambler's "theory" is that mortality is caused by  C+R.  Mine is that large fish stay out in the lake for a year or more longer and now are finding less to eat, hence, lower peak size.   There were a lot of Steelhead in the tribs last year and large numbers of dropbacks into May in the Salmon and June in the Niagara, so C+R does not automatically result in mortality. I think the important data for this fall will be the age of all the Salmon that are filling everyone's boxes.  Are they robust two year olds, Steve Lapan’s” eating machines capable of growing to 30+ lbs” or are they scrawny three year olds that have to work hard to find those big baitballs before they can get a meal.    If the former, happy days are here again, if the later, it might be time to cut stocking even further, or risk a collapse at worst, and at best a slow decline to Michigan sized fish.

[GAMBLER]

7 minutes ago, Lucky13 said:

The contention made by Gambler was that the decline in large 'bow attributable to increased popularity of tributary angling.  The data that is out there indicates that 86% of steelhead caught in the Salmon River are released and slightly less than 50% of steelhead reported in the boat survey are released.  Gambler's "theory" is that mortality is caused by  C+R.  Mine is that large fish stay out in the lake for a year or more longer and now are finding less to eat, hence, lower peak size.   There were a lot of Steelhead in the tribs last year and large numbers of dropbacks into May in the Salmon and June in the Niagara, so C+R does not automatically result in mortality. I think the important data for this fall will be the age of all the Salmon that are filling everyone's boxes.  Are they robust two year olds, Steve Lapan’s” eating machines capable of growing to 30+ lbs” or are they scrawny three year olds that have to work hard to find those big baitballs before they can get a meal.    If the former, happy days are here again, if the later, it might be time to cut stocking even further, or risk a collapse at worst, and at best a slow decline to Michigan sized fish.

Lake Michigan salmon have rebounded.  They are catching 30 - 40lb fish for the first time in years.  They are not having the huge numbers of kings hit the deck like the past.  They cut Lake Michigan stocking by 50% a couple years ago.  With two very strong year classes of alewife and a stocking cut already, things should start to right themselves in Lake O.  We also have to remember, the two hard winters with horrible YOY alewife survival has had a huge impact on the size of the Kings for those year classes.  They started life out with limited food small enough for them to eat.   If you look back at the state of the lake meeting minutes, you will see the size for the kings we are seeing as adults now is down.  The year class of 2 year olds this season (1 year old jacks last year) is right at the historical average.  Next years three year olds should be back on track. 

[Lucky13]

State of the Lake Meeting Minutes?   I have my notes, and the LO unit annual reports, but have never seen recaps of the meetings.

[GAMBLER]

Here you go Lucky13.

 

https://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_pdf/lou2017hilights.pdf

[Yankee Troller]

This stream/lake thing needs to stop. We have one hell of a fishery on both sides. If we could team up together and combat this "salmon season" that happens September/October in the tribs with more law enforcement and indictments we'd all win. I know there are a lot of small businesses, especially up East, that thrive on these two months of business. However, the truth is they are just grabbing money and allowing/encouraging unethical behaviors. 

[Lucky13]

Thank you very much, Gambler.  I have all this bookmarked but never thought of it as a meeting summary, just the summary of the full annual report to the GLFC.

If you look at section 9 of the full report (http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_pdf/lorpt17.pdf)  Figure 7 indicates that the 5 year and older steelhead have nearly disappeared from what reaches the hatchery.  Maybe the “larger fish”  genes have just been eliminated from the gene pool.

No arguments from me about the ”shyteshow” in September- early October, Rick, but even with patrols assigned to the Genesee last year from all over Region 8, the circus was still going strong.  As long as the higher ups in Albany (higher up than NYSDEC)  want to sell NYS to every outsider who wants to come and play whatever game they want, we’re going to see more of the same.  And the river guides up in P-town don’t help a lot, most of them just teach the west coast sockeye lining technique as necessary for kings, and when the salmon are done and the chrome show up early, like last October,  the ‘bows are just more fodder for the cooler for these rippers.   The only saving grace there is that most of the yahoos at least follow the one fish limit, but they can certainly put a hurting on a lot of fish with those methods. 

As to the perceived “ fight,”  I only pointed out the data that is out there about harvest, I would love to see everyone working together for improvement of the fishery, and especially the ethics.