Where are all the 20lb Steelhead we used to see

[King Davy]

Yankee, Gambler and Lucky all make valid points. Yes we have to get away from this Them against us attitude. We have a 12 month world class fishery. And it needs to be managed that way. When we had the die off of Steelhead in 2014 there was no hiding dead steelhead in our rivers, even in the Genny. So while I don't think there is anywhere near the mortality that some may think from C&R, (because there isn't really a way for these dead fish to hide)....I'm one that believes that trib anglers have to take a look in the mirror and decide when they've over stayed their welcome. I say that for lake anglers as well. My rule of thumb is if I can't tell you something unique about fish number 1, number 8, number 16, and number 24, just maybe I've over stayed my welcome and am putting way more pressure on the fish then is necessary. And these days I'm done way before 10.

 

The Salmon season brings a different type of angler to our rivers. They are a group that intends to harvest any fish . And to Rick's point "by any means". And many of these folks aren't true dedicated trib anglers who chase fish throughout the fall winter and spring on our rivers. many are hunters biding their time till hunting season get started. They have every right to fish our rivers legally and harvest their legal limit, and many do. While serious steelheaders would never kill one of these fish. One of the main reasons is after about December in many of the LO tribs, they are the only species left. We are starting to see more brown trout being released (over 70%) likely for the same reason. So we can catch them at another time, or somebody else can enjoy them. 

 

But back to Rick's point. We need to all be on the same team. look out for each other. If you really don't need to eat that fish, then put it back. No matter what species. I've caught five 20 pound plus steelhead in my 47 years of lake fishing, charter fishing and trib fishing. 1 in Little Shelter Valley on the North shore, One with a Charter off the Genny River in August. 3 in the Genny swinging flies in the early 2000's. And the latest one in the Sandy River out in the Aleutians in Alaska. They are pretty rare indeed. 

[bluegiller]

Thank you very much, Gambler.  I have all this bookmarked but never thought of it as a meeting summary, just the summary of the full annual report to the GLFC.

If you look at section 9 of the full report (http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_pdf/lorpt17.pdf)  Figure 7 indicates that the 5 year and older steelhead have nearly disappeared from what reaches the hatchery.  Maybe the “larger fish”  genes have just been eliminated from the gene pool.

No arguments from me about the ”shyteshow” in September- early October, Rick, but even with patrols assigned to the Genesee last year from all over Region 8, the circus was still going strong.  As long as the higher ups in Albany (higher up than NYSDEC)  want to sell NYS to every outsider who wants to come and play whatever game they want, we’re going to see more of the same.  And the river guides up in P-town don’t help a lot, most of them just teach the west coast sockeye lining technique as necessary for kings, and when the salmon are done and the chrome show up early, like last October,  the ‘bows are just more fodder for the cooler for these rippers.   The only saving grace there is that most of the yahoos at least follow the one fish limit, but they can certainly put a hurting on a lot of fish with those methods. 

As to the perceived “ fight,”  I only pointed out the data that is out there about harvest, I would love to see everyone working together for improvement of the fishery, and especially the ethics. 

I was in the fishing tackle industry for years and sold to that stores in the salmon River area. It's a shame the fishery has to be that way there but one thing we have to look at is it's a huge amount of money put back in this fishery. Now I am not saying it makes it right to snag or promote unethical fishing practices but you can't chase all those people away and expect that money to still be there for stocking and promotion of the sport. Not everyone can afford to take a charter, or buy a boat and talked it takes to catch them in the lake. So how can you fix it easy? I don't think you can. Only way I see is education but truly I have fished for the river salmon and they are hard to catch, most people don't want to spend the time it would take to catch them. Does that make it ok to be unethical? Nope but it's the facts. The state needs that money raised by that fishery.. how do we fix it ?

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[bluegiller]

Thank you very much, Gambler.  I have all this bookmarked but never thought of it as a meeting summary, just the summary of the full annual report to the GLFC.

If you look at section 9 of the full report (http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_pdf/lorpt17.pdf)  Figure 7 indicates that the 5 year and older steelhead have nearly disappeared from what reaches the hatchery.  Maybe the “larger fish”  genes have just been eliminated from the gene pool.

No arguments from me about the ”shyteshow” in September- early October, Rick, but even with patrols assigned to the Genesee last year from all over Region 8, the circus was still going strong.  As long as the higher ups in Albany (higher up than NYSDEC)  want to sell NYS to every outsider who wants to come and play whatever game they want, we’re going to see more of the same.  And the river guides up in P-town don’t help a lot, most of them just teach the west coast sockeye lining technique as necessary for kings, and when the salmon are done and the chrome show up early, like last October,  the ‘bows are just more fodder for the cooler for these rippers.   The only saving grace there is that most of the yahoos at least follow the one fish limit, but they can certainly put a hurting on a lot of fish with those methods. 

As to the perceived “ fight,”  I only pointed out the data that is out there about harvest, I would love to see everyone working together for improvement of the fishery, and especially the ethics. 

I was in the fishing tackle industry for years and sold to that stores in the salmon River area. It's a shame the fishery has to be that way there but one thing we have to look at is it's a huge amount of money put back in this fishery. Now I am not saying it makes it right to snag or promote unethical fishing practices but you can't chase all those people away and expect that money to still be there for stocking and promotion of the sport. Not everyone can afford to take a charter, or buy a boat and talked it takes to catch them in the lake. So how can you fix it easy? I don't think you can. Only way I see is education but truly I have fished for the river salmon and they are hard to catch, most people don't want to spend the time it would take to catch them. Does that make it ok to be unethical? Nope but it's the facts. The state needs that money raised by that fishery.. how do we fix it ?

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[King Davy]

However, those that drive up and snag fish, are staying in their cars, eating PB&J  or putting seven guys in a room, for sure drinking a lot of booze and maybe eating at gin joints, But they are also keeping away the anglers who would rent many rooms, eat in all the restaurants buy much more expensive tackle than surf snagging rods and black sponge. I could give you hundreds of names of people who have serious cash to spend that go to expensive places , who would easily spend it here, for the chance to "Fish" to our salmon in our rivers. The chances to get a fish to bite that truly isn't taking nourishment anymore yet still has the instinct to strike...but won't with cannon balls of lead crashing down around them is slimmer than none. 

[Lucky13]

13 minutes ago, bluegiller said:

I was in the fishing tackle industry for years and sold to that stores in the salmon River area. It's a shame the fishery has to be that way there but one thing we have to look at is it's a huge amount of money put back in this fishery. Now I am not saying it makes it right to snag or promote unethical fishing practices but you can't chase all those people away and expect that money to still be there for stocking and promotion of the sport. Not everyone can afford to take a charter, or buy a boat and talked it takes to catch them in the lake. So how can you fix it easy? I don't think you can. Only way I see is education but truly I have fished for the river salmon and they are hard to catch, most people don't want to spend the time it would take to catch them. Does that make it ok to be unethical? Nope but it's the facts. The state needs that money raised by that fishery.. how do we fix it ?

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Lake Ontario United mobile app
 

The fish are difficult to catch, that’s what makes them gamefish.  They are a lot easier to catch if people are not standing in the middle of the river right on top of them, and if people are trying to catch them rather than manipulating large amounts of lead to get it up close to the head, and then yanking, or running short drifts through the standing waves so the line gets caught in their teeth, and then yanking.   Changing this will require shaming the unethical fisherman, currently a near impossibility during the salmon run, or ticketing, which Region 8 has committed to doing, lets get the other regional LE guys on board.  It would help to have some strong statements from NYSDEC fisheries.  And I would hope to never again see a picture of a charter captain in a pirate hat “helping” with egg take by lifting hens for NYSDEC staff!!

[Yankee Troller]

21 minutes ago, bluegiller said:

I was in the fishing tackle industry for years and sold to that stores in the salmon River area. It's a shame the fishery has to be that way there but one thing we have to look at is it's a huge amount of money put back in this fishery. Now I am not saying it makes it right to snag or promote unethical fishing practices but you can't chase all those people away and expect that money to still be there for stocking and promotion of the sport. Not everyone can afford to take a charter, or buy a boat and talked it takes to catch them in the lake. So how can you fix it easy? I don't think you can. Only way I see is education but truly I have fished for the river salmon and they are hard to catch, most people don't want to spend the time it would take to catch them. Does that make it ok to be unethical? Nope but it's the facts. The state needs that money raised by that fishery.. how do we fix it ?

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Lake Ontario United mobile app
 

 

You're wrong.....the state doesn't need these people and their lack of ethics. As King Davy explained there are a lot of people with money that would take their place if they were gone. I have fished a trib once each year for the last 3 seasons. Prior to that I fished them every Saturday/Sunday between Oct 1 and ice fishing season. I just can't stand to see the shyt that goes on in our tribs anymore. I personally don't care about the businesses who promote this either. Selling shark rods and 1/0 hooks in Pulaski is just adding to it. 

[bluegiller]

The fish are difficult to catch, that’s what makes them gamefish.  They are a lot easier to catch if people are not standing in the middle of the river right on top of them, and if people are trying to catch them rather than manipulating large amounts of lead to get it up close to the head, and then yanking, or running short drifts through the standing waves so the line gets caught in their teeth, and then yanking.   Changing this will require shaming the unethical fisherman, currently a near impossibility during the salmon run, or ticketing, which Region 8 has committed to doing, lets get the other regional LE guys on board.  It would help to have some strong statements from NYSDEC fisheries.  And I would hope to never again see a picture of a charter captain in a pirate hat “helping” with egg take by lifting hens for NYSDEC staff!!

King Davy and lucky both great points . But the pure numbers of fisherman buying NYS fishing license would go down and the state looks at that number first. Again is that right or wrong? I agree we chase away quality fisherman with the way it is now...in fact I am one. I stopped stream fishing bc of the number of people. I never fished for kings in the upper rivers but I used to brown trout and steelhead fish more days than not from late November until spring I have not been now I'm about 12 years . But could the state make up those dollars from Mass license sales with the higher dollar fisherman? I don't know. Like Rich said we can't play the stream fisherman against the lake ones we all fish for the same fish and our money spent doing all go to the same place and all help stock fish..

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[GAMBLER]

Go to the Genesee River and see how many licensed fishermen are down there.  The illegal fishermen out number legit fishermen by far.  For years, the DEC was writing tickets and they would get thrown away by the City Court.  This is a huge problem.  Fishing without licenses, using snag hooks, night fishing, taking over the limit, and discarding carcasses on the bank are just some of the violations that go on down there. 

[bluegiller]

 
You're wrong.....the state doesn't need these people and their lack of ethics. As King Davy explained there are a lot of people with money that would take their place if they were gone. I have fished a trib once each year for the last 3 seasons. Prior to that I fished them every Saturday/Sunday between Oct 1 and ice fishing season. I just can't stand to see the shyt that goes on in our tribs anymore. I personally don't care about the businesses who promote this either. Selling shark rods and 1/0 hooks in Pulaski is just adding to it. 

Rich I was not saying it's right I was saying that's how the state looks at it. And am not sure the mass numbers would be there if it was than great. And I agree it is sickening to watch how crappy these fish are treated that time of year. And just like you I have stopped stream fishing bc of that and the numbers of fisherman making it hard to enjoy it. And you 3 might be perfectly right if the DEC put it's foot down like Alaska and cleaned it up we might see a much nicer stream fishery , but I know that the DEC loves the money it brings in and until some one proves to them if they clean it up the money will still show up it wont happen.. and I agree the good business would remain and do well and the crap ones that only promote poor fishing styles would either change or go away unmissed. I am on the same side as you guys just pointing out how I feel the state looks at it.

Sent from my Moto Z (2) using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[Sk8man]

I'm not so sure about the DEC being the major benefactor of the money brought in from licences and sports related revenue etc. Last I knew the money was being witheld and not necessarily dedicated to the DEC efforts either. The State Albany establishment wastes much of the money it receives from the various revenue sources via the general fund concept, and a lot of our money has been contributed to the bridge named after the Emporer Andrew's father.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Sk8man

[Gill-T]

IMO the biggest factor effecting size of steelhead is the lack of Emerald Shiners due to the effects of VHS and the loss of productivity in the epilimnion since the 80’s. We are seeing the effects on Erie now with walleye growth slowing to “Canadian shield lake levels”. It used to be during the 80’s and 90’s the blue zone offshore had emeralds visible on the surface year’round. Each spring you could count on emeralds thick in each port,river,stream or ditch. Now.....nothing. I saw plenty of trout snagged in tribs via snagging hooks in the eighties and steelhead were bigger. The charter fleet in Canada has had to adapt to steelhead or go out of business as their salmon numbers diminished over the decades. Two factors effecting size are age and food. If you believe the C&R numbers then it has to be the food. 

[Lucky13]

1 hour ago, GAMBLER said:

Go to the Genesee River and see how many licensed fishermen are down there.  The illegal fishermen out number legit fishermen by far.  For years, the DEC was writing tickets and they would get thrown away by the City Court.  This is a huge problem.  Fishing without licenses, using snag hooks, night fishing, taking over the limit, and discarding carcasses on the bank are just some of the violations that go on down there. 

There's a new sheriff in town.  From the May MCFAB minutes:

"Lt. Bruce Hummel reported on Law Enforcement efforts on the lower Genesee River during the fall of 2017. For 2017, officers were enlisted from all 11 Counties in Region 8. He said that two officers worked the river in 2016 and together wrote approximately 70 tickets.  In 2017, the details issued 188 tickets. After meeting with an Assistant District Attorney to discuss problems that had occurred in the past, Lt. Hummel assigned an ECO to be in court for all the tickets written in Rochester, even at arraignment, which they are normally not required to attend. Individuals who had been charged had the option of pleading at arraignment or going to trial. DEC had a suggested fine structure. The details were effective in getting out the word that DEC was watching the river. Region 8 plans to repeat the effort in 2018 with a more comprehensive data collection effort. He said that EC law allows a fine of up to $250.00 for ECL violations, although because there is also a state surcharge, fines are usually lower than the maximum. A question was asked about alleged “commercial operations” and he reported that while they observed individuals that were taking many fish, the possession limits make it difficult to apprehend people for this as they can have two days limits in possession. There were usually 5 or 6 individuals associated with the vehicles, so they generally had to have more than 35 salmon to be over the limit. They would like to catch some of these operators but are limited in having to identify a buyer at the eventual destination, and the need to track the vehicle as it travels cross state. He estimated that it would require a full time investigator at least 6 months to make a case. He also mentioned that in the City of Rochester there is a large amount of paperwork associated with writing a ticket, as they are required to file a prisoner data report, 4 copies of a supporting deposition, and an arrest report.  While this is a lot of additional work, if the ticketed person does not appear in court, an arrest warrant is issued, which all City Police see if they stop the individual for something else. He added that EnCon Law is always happy to respond to callers, and the hotline is 877-457-5680, or an individual ECO can be contacted with the phone numbers included on the DEC website or in the fishing guidebook. "

[Fishnut]

I use to fish the New York tributaries every year in the fall. 15 years ago I quit fishing there in the fall, because with all the AZZ holes you couldn't fish. we would go up and spend a week fishing and in a good week you would catch 3 maybe? these are really pressured fish.

we still go up every spring the end of April and fish for steelhead and browns, for the most part we have the rivers to our selves that time a year.

by (to our selves) I mean serious fishermen. most of the tight-liners and snaggers are not fishing this time of year.  I also see very few locals fishing this time of year.

[GAMBLER]

6 minutes ago, Lucky13 said:

There's a new sheriff in town.  From the May MCFAB minutes:

"Lt. Bruce Hummel reported on Law Enforcement efforts on the lower Genesee River during the fall of 2017. For 2017, officers were enlisted from all 11 Counties in Region 8. He said that two officers worked the river in 2016 and together wrote approximately 70 tickets.  In 2017, the details issued 188 tickets. After meeting with an Assistant District Attorney to discuss problems that had occurred in the past, Lt. Hummel assigned an ECO to be in court for all the tickets written in Rochester, even at arraignment, which they are normally not required to attend. Individuals who had been charged had the option of pleading at arraignment or going to trial. DEC had a suggested fine structure. The details were effective in getting out the word that DEC was watching the river. Region 8 plans to repeat the effort in 2018 with a more comprehensive data collection effort. He said that EC law allows a fine of up to $250.00 for ECL violations, although because there is also a state surcharge, fines are usually lower than the maximum. A question was asked about alleged “commercial operations” and he reported that while they observed individuals that were taking many fish, the possession limits make it difficult to apprehend people for this as they can have two days limits in possession. There were usually 5 or 6 individuals associated with the vehicles, so they generally had to have more than 35 salmon to be over the limit. They would like to catch some of these operators but are limited in having to identify a buyer at the eventual destination, and the need to track the vehicle as it travels cross state. He estimated that it would require a full time investigator at least 6 months to make a case. He also mentioned that in the City of Rochester there is a large amount of paperwork associated with writing a ticket, as they are required to file a prisoner data report, 4 copies of a supporting deposition, and an arrest report.  While this is a lot of additional work, if the ticketed person does not appear in court, an arrest warrant is issued, which all City Police see if they stop the individual for something else. He added that EnCon Law is always happy to respond to callers, and the hotline is 877-457-5680, or an individual ECO can be contacted with the phone numbers included on the DEC website or in the fishing guidebook. "

That is a step in the right direction.  The only issue is, once the snaggers learn the Genny is being targeted, they will move on to the next remote trib. 

[shorething]

I'm not so sure about the DEC being the major benefactor of the money brought in from licences and sports related revenue etc. Last I knew the money was being witheld and not necessarily dedicated to the DEC efforts either. The State Albany establishment wastes much of the money it receives from the various revenue sources via the general fund concept, and a lot of our money has been contributed to the bridge named after the Emporer Andrew's father.

Sent from my iPad using Lake Ontario United mobile app

[tuffishooker]

Mea culpa ; just checked the board at the StCG&F  summer derby : leading rainbows are only 12+ lbs ie small !